News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]

Funny how liberalism, freedom of expression and all that is now much more tolerated by the right than the left, who try to shut down any thoughts they disagree with.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]

On this particular point I disagree with Ironside. I don't think communists and socialists and progressives are the same thing. They are all to the left for sure and have similar ideologies in many areas but aren't exactly the same.

For example, there are actively communist countries right now that don't support gay rights, so they couldn't be called 'progressive.' Also, many socialists are against communism, but for a socialist style society. It's complicated.

It's the same with the right, there are many strands who agree on many things, such as their dislike of the left for example, but don't agree in other areas. For instance, some people who are on the right in Poland are very pro-American and pro PiS, while others aren't, but yet they both of them see themselves as right wing.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]

Jon, you're an idiot. I've tried to avoid that label for as long as I could, but you make it impossible to avoid it anymore. You're literally the definition of an idiot.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


Oh you'd be surprised.


I was thinking the same about you

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


I hear this type of argument made a lot and don't agree with it. The answer to dealing with bad things can't just be 'well if it's illegal it will be worse, so we should legalise it.' They've used the same logic for drugs, prostitution and other things.

I'm against abortions of sick children. I believe they have a right to life. Women do have a choice, they have a choice not to get pregnant. Once they do though, unless that pregnancy was caused by rape or their is a risk of them dying giving labour, they need to have the child. Nobody is forcing them to get pregnant and nobody is forcing them to take care of the child once it is born, if they don't believe they are able to. It's all about saving the life of the unborn baby, that's all.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


I take your point delph. In this case I would be more for pressuring the state to offer the families more support, than aborting these babies.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


I think it's looked at from a moral standpoint. One of the key arguments that has been brought up recently, is that babies with downs syndrome often get aborted and it's currently legal to do in Poland. The majority of people with downs syndrome are capable of living an independent life and statistics show that 90% of them are happy [higher on average than people born with no illness, more of whom tend to be unhappy]. So the question is, why should it be legal to abort them, when it isn't legal to abort babies who will be born healthy, particularly since they can live their lives normally and are happy? Also, if we can abort babies who are born with an illness, perhaps we should also have the right to perform euthanasia on elderly people, who often pick up illnesses in old age? I know this is legal in some countries, but in Poland it is considered morally reprehensible, as life is sacred.

At first I was also quite against the idea of tightening an already strict abortion law, but after hearing their points, I can see what they are getting at.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


Typical Jon, making stuff up again. What else can he do I suppose? He must be bored out of his mind.

I didn't insinuate that thousands of women were paid to attend. I was questioning where you got your information that none of them were paid.


Have you read social media posts by writers and 'journalists on the internet [you know, people who can write well]? Many of their posts have grammatical errors, spelling mistakes etc. You know why? Because they are written in a hurry and they don't care all that much about the grammar - they just want to make their point there and then. It's the same with me and a lot of people. Perfected grammar on an internet forum isn't exactly top of the priority list. Some of us don't have the kind of time on our hands as you do, to read over what we've written multiple times and make sure everything is grammatically tip top, while sipping on whatever the choice of alcoholic beverage is for the day. Keep drinking and posting Jon - your posts are providing us with a lot of laughs.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


I suppose you've looked in to my education background have you? Stick to the drink mate and try to interact with people as little as possible, to avoid embarrassing yourself.

Your arguments are arguments losers make, when they see they are losing. You don't like being challenged so you start to attack your opponent personally, despite knowing nothing about them.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


Ha! Keep trying.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]

I highly doubt an elderly conservative lady would say that Jon, so you can stop lying. Sounds much more like something an elderly leftist would shout during a march, setting a great example to the young adolescents around her.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


Oh but the left does this a lot. I've seen it in America many times. During the women's march in the USA, not only did it turn out to be more of a march against Trump, that I suppose if pushed, you could say was in some way related to women being mistreated given the negative perception of some of the comments he has made in the past, but there were also Black Lives Matter signs and gender neutrality stuff - like you say, stuff that had nothing to do with the march. It's almost as if people just throw all the left wing ideas in to one bag, no matter what the protest is specifically about, and then bring them up. It's laughable.

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]


And you know this how Jon? Have you somehow confirmed this beyond any doubt with your own research?


Good question. Probably because it's 'ulica i zagranica.' Not only do they want to take to the streets to protest but they want the world to be able to see how 'unhappy' people are in Poland under the 'tyrannical' Catholic party currently in charge.

As I already mentioned, the majority of people appear to be happy with who is in charge, hence why every poll that comes out shows PiS support 3 times as high as the closest opposition. But obviously the false message to foreign media and observers is 'Polish people are miserable, please help us, please find some way to impeach this tyrannical government.'

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]

Isn't it funny how when an event like this happens, people like to claim 'this shows that Polish women blah blah blah?' No it doesn't - it show that the Polish women who turned up have these views.

There are also many women who didn't show up, because they don't agree with the woman who did show up and have no problem with restricting abortion laws further.

Why do some people find it so hard to accept that people have different views in society? Some people think one thing, others think a different thing, hence democracy is the only real way to solve it. Stop trying to turn every protest in to a 'sign' that Polish people are against this, or fed up of that.

KOD protests were also covered all the time as 'this shows the Polish nation has had enough of the PiS dictatorial government.' It didn't show anything of the sort and opinion polls show this, with PiS always being way ahead of their opponents.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I don't think PiS give that much of a damn about international embarrassment or ridicule Jon. They've been attacked by most mainstream foreign media pretty much since they won the elections and they are plowing on with their elections promises.

I think they just don't want to cause too much friction with the USA and Israel [particularly the USA] but also know they cant repeal the law, otherwise people in Poland would turn on them.

If the Constitutional Tribunal points out some flaws in the law and PiS changes it, they think it won't look as bad as changing it because Israel and the USA told them too. I'm not sure people in Poland will buy it though.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


I think that people will see through it. I am sure that they were already suspicious of Duda passing it on to the Constitutional Tribunal after he signed it, something we wouldn't have done if Israel and the USA had not kicked up such a fuss. Any changes the tribunal makes will be looked at as appeasing those two countries, although if it is just the one change, that the tribunal has raised concerns over so far, it might not get quite the uproar as it would have it say, the tribunal said the entire law was unconstitutional, something the lying Israeli media has already stated in some of its headlines to confuse people.

Either way PiS are definitely doing what they can do appease both sides.


I thought the change was that the law wouldn't apply abroad? Foreigners who come to Poland and break this law, would still be punished I assume.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


This can't be done for one very simple reason, explained already. It would lose PiS a lot of support if they give in to Israeli and US pressure.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

There we go - I knew somebody would eventually say this.

'Oh what, you have some criticisms of the actions of Jewish people? Anti-Semite!!!!'

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

If you help kill other people in order to save your own skin, it doesn't make it okay.

For the umpteenth time Lyzko, we are not refuting the fact that some Polish people did bad things to Jews during the Holocaust, we're just waiting for the Jewish community to admit that some Jews, even if it wasn't a great number, also did bad things, and stop making excuses for them by saying they had no choice. Yes they did, they did have a choice, not to turn on their fellow man. As you said, most of the helpers were killed eventually anyway, so backstabbing their brothers and sister was for nothing. They could have died with honour, but they didn't.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


You think the Jews who saw their fellow Jews helping pack them in to wagons to be carted off to near certain death gave a sh-t that they were doing it for their own survival? You think the Jews who were found hiding in Polish families' homes because another Jew told the Nazis of their hiding place, thought 'ah well, they had to snitch on us to survive, so it's fine?' They must have been horrified to see other Jews turning on them, even if it was just to 'survive.' There are poems and other literature about it, by Jews, talking about the horror of seeing their fellow Jewish brothers doing this and saying that if any of those Jews survive, they must be taken to court and punished accordingly for the crimes they have committed.


Of course there isn't a good excuse for the Polish people who collaborated with Hitler's henchmen. I'm not trying to make one for them - it was despicable. It's interesting that you say nobody ever said Jews were saints, yet you'd be surprised how many recollections of the Second World War, by Jews, appear to show them in this very light - completely innocent, never put a foot wrong, it's the rest of the world that are Jew-hating anti-Semites, always have been and always will be. You know that there are already many Jews and rabbis who push this idea that the reason the Germans built the camps in Poland, was because they knew this nation would be happy to co-operate with them in eliminating the Jewish people. Lies like this have to be challenged.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Err, and how do you know that some Polish people didn't help the Nazis simply to save themselves? You don't know why people did what they did?

Anyway, to me, turning your 'brothers' in to the Nazis to save your own ass isn't exactly justifiable either. If a Polish person betrayed 10 other Polish people, they were then killed and later, in his defence, the Polish person said 'well I betrayed them to save my own life,' it wouldn't really fly. In the Jewish court however, a Jew using that reasoning would save himself from a sentencing. Interesting isn't it? Shows how different the cultures are.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


And you wonder why people get annoyed with you. No of course Polish people were not perfect and yes, there were Polish people who collaborated or co-operated with the German Nazis, but this is one of many side stories to the Holocaust.

Another is that there were Jews who collaborated with the Nazis too.

So if Jewish people want to mention these side stories during a speech, they shouldn't pick and choose what ones they mention, they should talk about all of them. Yet funnily enough, the Jewish collaborators are never mentioned in the speeches, while the Polish ones are always mentioned. Do you see the problem?

So either we just say, Germany attacked Poland and brought about the Holocaust, but there were people of many other nationalities and ethnicities who collaborated with them too and leave it at that, or if we want to start to get in to detail, then we mention all the different collaborators, not just the ones convenient to mention.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@delph

So you are telling me that ECJ rules mean a Polish law can be applied to people living elsewhere in the EU? That's insane.

Even if that's the case - I don't see how Poland can prosecute Argentinian media.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


I don't think so. If a Pole living in Poland says Poland was complicit in the holocaust, while he/she in Poland, and then makes off to some other country, then perhaps. However if a Pole living in Britain says it, I doubt the British government would extradite him to Poland to be punished under Polish law, even under pressure from the Polish government.

I think the crux of the issue is that this event [if real] was supposed to be an Israeli-Polish event bringing both nations together, yet so often, when Jews talk about the Holocaust, they like to mention the 'bad Poles' who helped the Nazis. If they want to mention the collaborators every time they discuss the Holocaust, fine, why not mention the collaborators of all nations, including Jewish ones? Why only Polish collaborators? This I think is what annoys the Polish people.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

ditto

Although you mention that the whole event took place in December. The article says Monday. I am assuming this meant today? Where did you get December from?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Surely a Polish law can only penalise people in Poland? Just like Israel's holocaust denial law can't penalise somebody for denying the holocaust outside of Israel. I mean, a nation's law can only stay within the boarders of their own nation right? Otherwise what would be the point in having governments with different laws in different countries.

Therefore, a Polish citizen outside of Poland wouldn't be breaking the law if he or she mentioned Polish death camps abroad, just like a Polish citizen wouldn't be breaking the law if they went to another country to have an abortion, for instance because, they felt they were't ready for a baby [a reason that wouldn't be deemed good enough for an abortion in Poland].


What I find baffling, is that he had an issue with the judiciary reform law and refused to sign parts of it, but he signed this law, even though it was much more badly put together than the other one.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Agreed. The law is badly put together and they will find it very difficult to prosecute anyone with it. It's too vague in terms of who can actually be prosecuted. If Israel and the USA did not get outraged so publicly, perhaps the president wouldn't have signed it so fast. Those 2 nations effectively forced his hand, otherwise PiS and the president would be viewed by their supporters as lapdogs of Israel and the USA.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Hmmmm. I see they don't give any information as to what was written in the speech and claim that they had to take out something about Polish people who turned Jews over to the Nazis, but I find it hard to believe. Of course it could be true, but seeing the transcript of the speech would be helpful.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


We would have to get a look at the speech to answer that. If it referred to Poland and being responsible for Jews perishing in the Holocaust, they could be. If it just mentions some Poles who handed over Jews, then there is no legal basis for it.

Where did you get this information by the way?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

The more I follow Daniels, the more I seriously doubt the theories that he is a Mossad agent. He is definitely up to no good, but he's too stupid to be an agent. He has lost his cool and attacked Poland far too many times.

He has told the Polish government what organisations they should ban, he has quoted Gazeta Wyborcza, he flipped out and said Jews had to help the Germans to save their own lives while Polish people did it out of hatred and greed and just yesterday, he retweeted the Israeli journalist who tweeted 'Polish Death Camps' 14 times a while back. If he was an agent, his job would be to blend in, not to get almost the entire nation to despise him.

I think he is more of a PR man with some connections, serving the interests of Israel and the Jewish lobby in the USA, but Mossad agent? Naaaah.