UK, Ireland / The number of Anti-English Poles... [228]


I guess that would be 'burak', i.e 'beetroot'. Quite denigrating, mind you, so please do not use it lightly. However, I left Poland 6 years ago, things might have developed there.

Usually, I am not overly keen to teach Brits the dark side of our beautiful language. In this case, though, I feel fully absolved, as your need is true and dire.

Actually, I am quite surprised by the general humane and patient reaction to this moronic drivel.

Come to think about it, being a true Pole... I say this must be a KGB troll. Yeah. And we can make a quick poll here.

UK, Ireland / The number of Anti-English Poles... [228]


Typical. Typical reality-contorting KGB method. Lies, lies, and more lies. I will denounce you, you will be banned.

Yeah, I wish...


we'd rather sort it out elsewhere, not in this urbane company, mate.

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [301]

I don't want to provoke a mighty opponent myself, so please ask M-G about the role of Judenrat in the Nazi Germany...

-----

Uff... I am late, I know, but that's all your fault. 7 pages with references is not a small thing.

edit:


hm, there's that bit of history of the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland, starting in 1939...

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [301]


Um, a bit unexpected... don't want to be rude, but I am not your friend (yet, possibly). Actually, you irked me a lot with many of your comments, but, as I already said, I blame the media for (most) of it. I am not your enemy either, to make it clear.

Care to comment about my reservations re Yad Vashem list?

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [301]


An indicator, yes. Rather roughly, and quite indirectly, indicating the actual situation. Not something that would back up your statement 'I am quoting documents and hard numbers, where's your data.' Innit :)

An indicator of the memory of the saviours being dear to the Jews, as well.

I tried to find out when it all started, and just popped into the Yad Vashem site:


Shortly, the real picture of who was saving Jews may wildly vary from what the list seems to suggest. What it says is only: 'These people applied or were recommended, and their applications met our requirements'.

---------------------


Are you sure about it? The Kristallnacht happened less than a year before, and it was the first such a 'big' pogrom. Hitler was furious when he learned about it, because he wanted to stay palatable to the West up until the very beginning of the war. Even if, then how being happy that the allegedly lesser evil happens does justify cooperation with the invaders against their fellow countrymen? Must've been some other reason.

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [301]


Um, right. I referred to 'one reason is clear'. Which it is not. This blinded me to the rest of the post.

So you suggest it was a result of bad treatment by the Poles before the war, right? Only it goes beyond the scope '1939-1944', which we are discussing here, by your decree :)

Couldn't it be a result of simply pro-soviet sympathies among those Jews, what do you think?

UK, Ireland / Sad life of a Polish migrant in the UK. Ch. 5 - Racism [259]


But it was happenning, innit?

krakowpost.com/article/435: According to the Office of National Statistics Data, foreigners make up 31 percent of London's inhabitants, but they commit 20 percent of overall crime.

Well... 80% of crimes are committed by Brits, who make up 69% of Londoners. That makes, let me see, 1.16 statcrimes per head. 20% of crimes are commited by foreigners, 31% of Londoners, which makes 0.65 crimes per head. Now 1.16/0.65 = 1.78. So on average, in London, a statistical Brit commits almost twice as many crimes as a foreigner.

Seems immigration is a cure for crime in the UK, like?

On Poles:

Telegraph: 'More than 600,000 people have arrived, more than half from Poland'

Let's say it's 300.002 people

Telegraph: The figures reflect that about one in ten crimes was carried out by Poles, about 2.1 percent of all crimes committed in London.

If average Pole in London is equally criminal minded as an averaged non-Pole, then 300.002 should be 2.1% of the London's population. Then the London population would be 300.002/2.1*100 = 14.286 million. Funny thing, it isn't. With a more realistic estimate of some 450.000 Poles in 2007, the result would be 21.4 million. So Poles are significantly less criminal than even the averaged non-Polish peace loving community of London, which is already more law-abiding than native London Brits.

Shocking, eh?

Telegraph: "The migrants don't know how to integrate."

Damn right. Shoot them all and send them back to Poland, we have no fkn use for them wussies here.

This quotation here is a bit of manipulation, though :) Actually it concluded the following statement:

Telegraph: A senior official, who asked not to be named, said: "These tensions invariably lead to crime. They don't know when to put the bins out, they are a noisy lot and often drink vodka on the street."

Damn bloody criminals, I say...

decor_ating clearly has an issue. The Telegraph likewise, since the whole article is in a rather alarming tone.

Language / Polish Slang Phrases - Elephant Me! - Huh?!! [14]

Different syntax here in Polish and English sentences.

1. Fortepian można zasłonić lecz słonia nie można zafortepianić.
2. Piano (one can) cover but elephant (one can't) piano.
3. The piano can be covered but elephatnt cannot be pianoed.
4. Fortepian może być zasłonięty, ale słoń (nie może) być zafortepianiony.

#2 is word by word translation of #1.
#3 is modification of#2, to make it sound more natural in English.
#4 is word by word translation of #3, sounds a bit awkward in Polish.

UK, Ireland / The number of Anti-English Poles... [228]


Chicago is a tad far from here... Thing is, that the English themselves say the same. There was that program on BBC, couple of years ago, comparing Polish and English builders. Poles worked 10 hours a day, always busy, the English 8 hours, half time on the phone. Similar job took them some twice as long. English quality was crap, Polish OK.

My personal impressions were the same. I was astounded by the English 'relaxed' attitude at work. I have learned something since...

History / Actually, there never was any Polish-German hatred [149]


that would need another forum, Darek :) Silesia has definitely the most 'interesting' history of all Polish regions, and especially in the last century. Even the word 'Polish' in the previous sentence might seriously raise some brows here, and we might argue happily till Christmas. Silesia is Silesia, and seems all the neighbouring countries are there just to entertain Silesians and keep them in their healthy uncertainty who they really are.

Your observations seem correct, but it's only a spoonful out of the Silesian eintopf.

I'd love to rant on this topic, but possibly not today.

History / Actually, there never was any Polish-German hatred [149]

Silesians... Polish Silesians, German Silesians, Silesians Silesians? :)

BTW, that remark about 'the second wave of German migration from Silesia in 70/80ies' is a bit of misnomer, Boy :) There were few Germans left in Silesia after the war, mostly due to '3 days of freedom' granted to the Soviet troops who crossed the pre-war Polish-German border. Pillage, raping, murder, raping, pillage, looting, raping murder. A massive difference to what Silesians experienced during the war, when they were relatively cosy.

Cosy, except the draft, destination Ost Front. Because Silesia was incorporated into Germany, and all Silesians presented with Volskliste class 3. And this was at the roots of the late migration. Whoever felt like 'choosing freedom', digged up his grandfather's Wehrmacht papers and was granted German citizenship automatically. Then just a single year in the immigration camp, language classes, and a new German is born.

Have to finish for now, see ya.

History / Actually, there never was any Polish-German hatred [149]


No, this is a point of view. :)


Granted. My post was a simplification, and I don't deny it. Some of them survived as long as 1990ies and suddenly we had an official German minority. In the Opole area there are places with dual-language road-signs. At least there were last time I checked.


Now here our versions would differ, although I can't back mine with hard scientific evidence, but anecdotal data only. Namely, I have met people whose grandpas were drafted and sent to defend the civilisation. Families with a strong Polish-Silesian identity.


Quite. And they were happy to exploit this German foible. My experience is of families which had a proud tradition of a grandgrandpa in Silesian insurrections, and a useful history of a grandpa in Wehrmacht. Which did not mean that during the 20 years of the Polish independence they changed their allegiance so dramatically. They kept it unchanged until the migration, and sometimes even longer. If longer then in terms of sentiment, rather, than actual loyalty.


As I said, till Christmas :) Then we will reconcile.

Uff. Silesia was first (in the historical span) Celtic, then there were Wandals, then Slavs, who melted into Poles. This lasted until Poland lost its grip on Silesia, with, ehem, Czechia (Bohemia) benefiting. Silesia was predominantly under Czech influence or allegiance, for about 600 years, but the local princes were mostly from the 100% Polish Piast dynasty, and the plebs was Polish. Uncomfortable fact is, that they readily adopted German culture and language, them impeccable Polish princes... so even the German speaking local Piast looked towards Cracow, rather, than to the west. Quite often. Somehow inevitably, the whole area, through Czekia, become almost totally Germanized.

With the exception of the Upper Silesia, Opole (Oppeln), Raciborz (Rattberg?), and Beskid Slaski, which remained a border zone, with a strong Polish majority. And this was what I was speaking of. My Silesia. Which rebelled, successfully (3rd insurrection) against the partial verdict of the Western plebiscite commission deciding that most of the Upper Silesia should belong to Germany.

My Silesia ended just between Zabrze (Hindengurg?)and Gliwice (Gleiwitz), and that's why Darek can say that he never heard Silesian dialect in Gliwice. He heard Wolynian drawl. Now, everybody in Gliwice claims his grandpa had a house in Lwów, high street, with shops.


Pfff, I'd say more. Poles are a nation of mongrels. With Germans it helped that the western border was actually the most quiet throughout the history. Germans migrated to Poland over ages, often adopting Polish culture quite easily.

History / Actually, there never was any Polish-German hatred [149]


background info likewise... Judging by 'Sensen', that would be a song dated somewhere around the Kosciuszko Uprising. Bloodthirsty Poles ungratefully wishing death to the enlightened Nations which compassionately put the suffering Poland out of her misery. An unheard-of cooperative effort, exceptional act of international benevolence, and they even had to pay for it with their own money. Them benefactors, I mean, not those greedy Poles, robbing everybody's land left, right and centre. Just look at the map, all of the so-called 'their' territory belonged to somebody else some time in the past.

There was more of it, some Polish slanderous rhyme like Rota, or sumtin, 'no German will spit us in the face'. The sheer cheek of it, just imagine! Hell, Poles dared to sing 'Noch ist Polen nicht verloren', can you believe? 'Poland is not dead yet', phew. And I hear they still do sing it, bastards, and in public. And they can't even put it right. 'Verloren' means 'lost', and they sing 'nie zginela', which means 'not dead yet', rather. Idiots.

Really, it's an effort to write this 'nation's' name with a capital letter.

History / The Pogrom on Jews at Eishyshok (Ejszyszki) in Poland [68]


:) really, MG... NKVD sent some Poles to Siberia, after sentencing them by the NKVD tribunal, and you call it 'proven'?

History / The Pogrom on Jews at Eishyshok (Ejszyszki) in Poland [68]


Seems a bit naive, as said by a historian? Sources are to be first evaluated as to their reliability. NKVD is not exactly famous for its adherence to hard-core truth.


I'd say they are 100% genuine. Documenting NKVD sending some Poles to Siberia, after accusing them of and sentencing them for atrocities committed on Jews.

History / The Pogrom on Jews at Eishyshok (Ejszyszki) in Poland [68]


So 'proven' is not quite a proper word to use here, in the circumstances? Sometimes I just like things to be put down in a rather blunt matter, please indulge me.

History / The Pogrom on Jews at Eishyshok (Ejszyszki) in Poland [68]

I suspect some difference of opinions here...


I don't quite get you here... 30ies and 40ies?

1. Nationalisation of big industry.
2. Central regulation of economy, 5-year production plans allowing small businesses only to operate 'freely' in the regulated economy. Food prescription.
3. Nationalisation of land and creating government owned huge 'farms'.
4. Banning all trade unions, except for those controlled by the government
5. Suppressing free speech, and overwhelming, populist, dumbing propaganda
6. Government-controlled mass youth organisations aimed at creating a new, better citizen. Used to dig potatoes on the mentioned farms. While singing patriotic songs.
7. Brutal persecution of religion.
8. Bright and happy future for everybody, following temporary difficulties and necessary sacrifices under the enlightened leadership of the only Party, following then only true ideology. Said difficulties being instigated by the treacherous and mean enemy.

9. Strong Marxist sympathies, including famous Marx's antisemitism. Kinda obvious, so I forgot.
9. Red flag with a funny logo. 'Cos this is worker's blood'.

Where is the Right in the above?

11. National Socialistic German Worker's Party

oh fvck. Sorry. You're right. Sorry for wasting tour time.


Um, I am a slow reader. So the Soviets were the Right, exactly like the Nazi. Left only in name. But, just a supposition, couldn't it all be based on the irrefutable truth that Right is Bad, and Left is Good? Stalin is the Right, Mao is the Right, Ho Shi Minh is the Right, and all of them blatantly lie about being Left. Typical rightist tactics, like. Bloody liars.

MG, sorry to disillusion you, left is bad. Left is wrong. The Left is not bearded intellectuals with flowers in their hairs, the Left is Trocki, who, unlike Stalin, planned Gulag for the whole world. The Left is Pol Pot, who managed to murder 20% of his own nation in some 5 years, applying nothing more technically advanced than a simple hoe, and enslaved the rest in a nightmarish manner. The Left is Mugabe, who converted the Bread Basket of Africa into a land of starvation. And strange as it seems, the Nazi have much much much more of the Left in them than of the Right, despite the common misconception, and apart from inclination to genocide. Unlike Fascists, who were a bizarre eclectic bunch. Hitler hated Soviets, Stalin hated Maoists, Trocki hated Stalin, so what.


You didn't read that Haaretz article between lines, did you?


Gross stated with authority that 1600 Jews were burned. My reaction was 'Fkn hell, that WAS sumtin, fvck... errm, just a minute...' 1600 people crammed in a typical Polish village barn? Make it twice as big, and still you have to pack them in layers. What kind of opinion did I form about Gross, what do you think?

And other instances.

---

Your statements were used to prove this and that. If they are wrong, then you have no proof for this and that, then possibly this and that is not quite true. What do you think, again?

=======================================


well, what does it change, that focus? Documented by NKVD. You mean they lied in the face, but what they wrote was pure truth? Slightly biased, maybe? Just a tad?

I guess I might be starting to vaguely suspect where that my idiosyncrasy about being blunt comes from...

History / The Pogrom on Jews at Eishyshok (Ejszyszki) in Poland [68]

That's why priest were sent to lagers? Yes, they opposed many things. Revolutionaries, like. Hardly conservative.


He had to run an initially democratic country, don't forget.


So much for internationalism, as a defining feature of leftism.


I am dead serious. They made a mistake.

History / Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered? [37]

the case is obscure, and I doubt if you find the answer here, unless there is an eye-witness reading the PF. Any version can be true. And no, the speed of reaction is not the reason to doubt this particular version any more than the others, it rather adds credibility to it.

History / Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered? [37]

No such thing, actually. Google search for 'Holocaust Research Centre in Lublin' (unquoted) puts your original post on position 6, and search for 'Holocaust Research Centre Lublin' on the 16th position.

zagladazydow.org describes Kopciowski as a 'historian, assistant prof. in the Department of Culture and History of the Jews, Lublin University'.

There is 'Polish Center for Holocaust Research', though: 'a section of the Institute of Philosophy and Sociology of the Polish Academy of Sciences. It is the first and so far the only research institution in Poland dealing exclusively with Holocaust studies.' Kopciowski is not amongst its members. There are 10 members, mostly from Warsaw, as it seems, including 3 from the Jewish Historical Institute, Warsaw, and one from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. The leader is a psychologist, 'involved in the study of the Holocaust for 15 years'.

As for the Jewish Historical Institute, the first page on its site promotes 'Shtetl', to be screened there on Tuesday and Wednesday, and a meeting with its director following on Thursday. No mention about Romaniuk. Just an observation, really.

Seems your joint revisionist project might be quite interesting to watch :)

History / Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered? [37]


And if I loose it, then what?

Try to think of the r... word without its political connotations. You are going to, possibly, revise the Wiki article, right? :)

I've just scanned more than 30 pages of Google search. Most of it is simply 'murdered by AK/NSZ/Polish rightists'. One 'by anti-Semitic mob', and one 'possibly love affair'. One site says Hersz Blank was executed in November 1944, half a year before Feldhendler's death, and continues: 'Some of his murderers were later arrested and executed in Lublin on April 12, 1945, although for another reason. They were rehabilitated after the regime changed, and even received compensation.' Other says they weren't rehabilitated, but only acquitted.

Feldhendler's wife, as quoted, relates the 'shot through the closed door' version. Would be fine, only it's the same site that states the killers were executed, and later got compensation.

One text, quite widely distributed, refers to a book in Hebrew, by the look of it, seemingly unavailable in the Net.

Seems a pretty tough job, unless you can put your hands on source materials.

And you must've noticed that I am speaking of 'execution' and 'killing', and not 'murder'. Does it make me look like I loose the air of objectivity?


I wouldn't be too sure. It was freshly after the war, information didn't circulate like it does today. Apparently, Wiesenthal as late as in 1957 said he had never heard about Sobibor.

History / Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered? [37]

try English, German, and Hebrew versions. You'll have more questions to ask.

History / Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered? [37]


French? Must be Google.NL edition. Except the three mentioned above I have only one [][][] version. Doesn't look like French. I want French.

News / Poland to penalise commie symbols [27]

jurist.org/paperchase/2010/05/lithuania-court-rules-swastikas-are-part-of-historic-legacy.php

History / Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered? [37]

translate.google.com/ seems to work not half bad. Just don't try to translate into Polish.

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]


In heraldry, crown on the head of a heraldic beast is a symbol of sovereignty. Commies didn't realize that, and removed the crown from the coat of arms of the PRPoland as a reactionary symbol. Ironically, they just illustrated the actual status of the PRP.

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]

try Google 'crown symbol sovereignty'. Crowned heraldic beast symbolizes sovereignty. Contrarily, a beast with a crown hanging from its neck indicates dependence, vassaldom, fief. As an example see how the Prussian coat of arms changed from a black eagle with a crown around its neck (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Prussia), Polish fief, to a black eagle crowned, sovereign state since 1702.

The whole lot of diverse crowns shown in the Wiki article pertains to crowns located in the helm, not in the blazon. Helluva difference in symbolics.

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]

And a lot of monarchies have no crown, nor an eagle, nor a lion in their coats of arms, and some do not even have a coats of arms us such. This doesn't change the symbolism of the crown of the Polish Eagle, stemming from the European heraldic tradition.

Symbols say what people who created them say they say, and if others have different opinions, they just have no understanding. I've just checked the Austrian coat of arms, which bothered me always, and it turns out that sickle and hammer were introduced in 1919 with no reference to communism.

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]

The post-habsburgian black eagle of Austria holds hammer and sickle in its claws.

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Austria

Discussions about the arms have been triggered in the past by differing political interpretations, especially by the use of the hammer and the sickle and the broken chains, since the crossed hammer and sickle are a widespread symbol of communism, as is the breaking of chains. Surveys have however confirmed, that understanding of the actual symbolism of the arms is widespread.

And the 'actual symbolism' is hammer for industry, sickle for agriculture, mural crown for the middle class.

The German version gives the date of ''Gesetz über das Staatswappen und das Staatssiegel
der Republik Deutschösterreich" as 9 May 1919, so it's before the Bolshevik Revolution. However, I am not sure if Addendum 202 was already there.