Olga
14 Apr 2010
Olga
14 Apr 2010
News / New Polish president and Russian/American relations [37]
Your welcome. I am a strong believer in knowing all sides to a "story" before making hasty, convenient conclusions.
Olga - thanks for posting those most interesting links.
Your welcome. I am a strong believer in knowing all sides to a "story" before making hasty, convenient conclusions.
Olga
14 Apr 2010
News / New Polish president and Russian/American relations [37]
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265482/Leck-Kaczynski-Russia- engineered-plane-crash-claims-Polish-MP
"Vladimir Putin's brotherly embrace of a tearful Polish prime minister was one of the most powerful images beamed from the site of Saturday's plane crash that killed Poland's president and many of the country's elite."
reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63A1CZ20100412
"The plane crash that killed Poland's president and leading opposition politicians has removed at one stroke key opponents of Prime Minister Donald Tusk and his ruling centrist Civic Platform"
"Poland PM Tusk Considers Running for President"
"Donald Tusk - a friend of Russia? Donald Tusk also hinted that the ABM issue has not been finalized and, hence, Moscow has a chance to persuade Warsaw not to host the American missile interceptors...Tusk mentioned one more problem in bilateral relations. Warsaw may "adjust its position" on oil and gas supplies. He meant primarily Yaroslaw Kaczynski's decision to build a terminal on the Baltic coast - in the event that Moscow stops gas supplies via the Yamal-Europe pipeline.
en.rian.ru/analysis/20071123/89337291.html
"The death of Poland's president carries a terrible echo of his country's past...When government ministers tried to haggle with America about a planned missile-defence base, he undercut them. Poland would be happy to have the installation on any terms. To Mr Kaczyński, his brother, and many of their supporters, Russia was still a menace, run by the former KGB... his arch-rival Donald Tusk
"Redzikowo Missile Defense Shield"
"Diplomats mull practical impact of Polish air disaster...A senior Russian diplomat has said that the emotions generated by the Polish plane disaster could help the two sides to work together in future. Asked if the new atmosphere in bilateral relations could have practical consequences, Mr Chizhov said: "I certainly hope so. There are issues that we could work on jointly, issues related to regional co-operation in the Baltic Sea zone, issues related to transport links, to energy - provided there is political will."
euobserver.com/9/29847
"Polish President Kaczynski was nationalist, pro-U.S"
"Polish premier's ill-fated trip shrouded in acrimony...
The ill-fated journey that wiped out Poland's governing elite on Saturday was prompted by an angry feud between President Lech Kaczynski and his Prime Minister over the country's tense relationship with Russia, it has emerged."
"Throughout history, Russian leaders have sought to suppress dissent by driving critics into exile - or worse"
********************************************************************
Therein lie the answers...
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265482/Leck-Kaczynski-Russia- engineered-plane-crash-claims-Polish-MP
"Vladimir Putin's brotherly embrace of a tearful Polish prime minister was one of the most powerful images beamed from the site of Saturday's plane crash that killed Poland's president and many of the country's elite."
reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63A1CZ20100412
"The plane crash that killed Poland's president and leading opposition politicians has removed at one stroke key opponents of Prime Minister Donald Tusk and his ruling centrist Civic Platform"
"Poland PM Tusk Considers Running for President"
"Donald Tusk - a friend of Russia? Donald Tusk also hinted that the ABM issue has not been finalized and, hence, Moscow has a chance to persuade Warsaw not to host the American missile interceptors...Tusk mentioned one more problem in bilateral relations. Warsaw may "adjust its position" on oil and gas supplies. He meant primarily Yaroslaw Kaczynski's decision to build a terminal on the Baltic coast - in the event that Moscow stops gas supplies via the Yamal-Europe pipeline.
en.rian.ru/analysis/20071123/89337291.html
"The death of Poland's president carries a terrible echo of his country's past...When government ministers tried to haggle with America about a planned missile-defence base, he undercut them. Poland would be happy to have the installation on any terms. To Mr Kaczyński, his brother, and many of their supporters, Russia was still a menace, run by the former KGB... his arch-rival Donald Tusk
"Redzikowo Missile Defense Shield"
"Diplomats mull practical impact of Polish air disaster...A senior Russian diplomat has said that the emotions generated by the Polish plane disaster could help the two sides to work together in future. Asked if the new atmosphere in bilateral relations could have practical consequences, Mr Chizhov said: "I certainly hope so. There are issues that we could work on jointly, issues related to regional co-operation in the Baltic Sea zone, issues related to transport links, to energy - provided there is political will."
euobserver.com/9/29847
"Polish President Kaczynski was nationalist, pro-U.S"
"Polish premier's ill-fated trip shrouded in acrimony...
The ill-fated journey that wiped out Poland's governing elite on Saturday was prompted by an angry feud between President Lech Kaczynski and his Prime Minister over the country's tense relationship with Russia, it has emerged."
"Throughout history, Russian leaders have sought to suppress dissent by driving critics into exile - or worse"
********************************************************************
Therein lie the answers...
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
My advice: Don't pose the question if you cannot bear the answer. Mark my words, you will see...
My advice: Don't pose the question if you cannot bear the answer. Mark my words, you will see...
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
But it is only unofficial Russian version claiming so-called "diversions" to other cities. And revenge would fit, no?
"The crash also took an icon of Poland's Solidarity freedom movement,
80-year-old Anna Walentynowicz. Workers at the Lenin Shipyard in
Gdansk went on strike when Walentynowicz was fired from her job as
a crane operator in August 1980 for her opposition activity.
That sparked strikes that spread to other plants across the nation, giving
rise to the movement that helped bring about the demise of communism
in Poland nine years later."
--The Associated Press
kyivpost.com/news/world/detail/63754/
There are at least two things which does not fit into the version that the Russians who alive would do it:
1. They would not try to divert flight to other cities then.
2. They would not need it as this president was likely to lose next elections.
1. They would not try to divert flight to other cities then.
2. They would not need it as this president was likely to lose next elections.
But it is only unofficial Russian version claiming so-called "diversions" to other cities. And revenge would fit, no?
"The crash also took an icon of Poland's Solidarity freedom movement,
80-year-old Anna Walentynowicz. Workers at the Lenin Shipyard in
Gdansk went on strike when Walentynowicz was fired from her job as
a crane operator in August 1980 for her opposition activity.
That sparked strikes that spread to other plants across the nation, giving
rise to the movement that helped bring about the demise of communism
in Poland nine years later."
--The Associated Press
kyivpost.com/news/world/detail/63754/
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Russian air traffic controllers ignored communication protocol of Polish pilots? [194]
Latest information about investigation (must read): naszdziennik.pl/index.php?dat=20100413&typ=tk&id=tk05.txt
Latest information about investigation (must read): naszdziennik.pl/index.php?dat=20100413&typ=tk&id=tk05.txt
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
I too am Polish, kochani moji, and I am mourning as well, but angry. I am not trying to upset anyone, just warning to be prepared. Jescze Polska nie zginela...
Shut your mouth up, PLEASE Olga!!
You and most of others on PF here, wildrover included!!! making us Poles suffer much longer ...
We, Poles need time and we need time to mourn... don't desturb that!!!...
we need to re-think some things...
You and most of others on PF here, wildrover included!!! making us Poles suffer much longer ...
We, Poles need time and we need time to mourn... don't desturb that!!!...
we need to re-think some things...
I too am Polish, kochani moji, and I am mourning as well, but angry. I am not trying to upset anyone, just warning to be prepared. Jescze Polska nie zginela...
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Who perpetrated Katyn I? Stalin I. And now Stalin II at Smolensk airport perpetrated Katyn II.
So you are saying farmer neighbor next to airport has hand portable missile somewhere? Not very likely.
On the contrary, if you are in charge and dictating the investigation and have KGB inside knowledge at your disposal--very possible and more than likely, in this case. Are you aware that Polish aviation investigators have not yet been permitted by Russian authorities to examine the crash site?
Here is excellent article written in Polish:
Who perpetrated Katyn I? Stalin I. And now Stalin II at Smolensk airport perpetrated Katyn II.
...its very easy to bring down an aircraft , especially when its flying low on approach to an airport , one man with a hand portable missile can do it , not a problem..!
So you are saying farmer neighbor next to airport has hand portable missile somewhere? Not very likely.
Doing this without leaving any shred of evidence is another matter..it just would not be possible...
On the contrary, if you are in charge and dictating the investigation and have KGB inside knowledge at your disposal--very possible and more than likely, in this case. Are you aware that Polish aviation investigators have not yet been permitted by Russian authorities to examine the crash site?
Here is excellent article written in Polish:
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
And Poland is again getting her nose rubbed in it. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
czar
Edited by: czar Today, 12:52 #75
poland is still suffering from the katyn today
russia is still benefiting from katyn since stalin times
stalin and katyn were based on revenge
Edited by: czar Today, 12:52 #75
poland is still suffering from the katyn today
russia is still benefiting from katyn since stalin times
stalin and katyn were based on revenge
And Poland is again getting her nose rubbed in it. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Not me, Comrade. Putin.
Not me, Comrade. Putin.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Communist Bloc Eastern Europe is a "preferable" option to WWIII, and Putin knows that's how the world feels. So they will let him have it in order to avoid war. As for future of Eastern Europeans & Russians--back to behind Iron Curtain. Proletariat serfs, like before.
Are you aware that your ideas (such ideas) lead Poland and complete NATO/EU in military conflict with Russia? Are you aware that, if you are right, Russia in fact attacked one NATO country and started war, possible even nuclear war? Because Russia was motivated by revenge on Kaczynski, by your words?!
Communist Bloc Eastern Europe is a "preferable" option to WWIII, and Putin knows that's how the world feels. So they will let him have it in order to avoid war. As for future of Eastern Europeans & Russians--back to behind Iron Curtain. Proletariat serfs, like before.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Zest--you took the word right out of my mouth. Exactly that with Putin. Medvedev is simply his sock-puppet, as most people know.
do not underestimate the russian zest for revenge
Zest--you took the word right out of my mouth. Exactly that with Putin. Medvedev is simply his sock-puppet, as most people know.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Try to not get so emotional--Putin certainly isn't. Putin's hero is Stalin (well known fact) and Putin's goal is to create Imperial Russia II with himself as czar. West stands in the way, so get rid of neighboring western influence in Georgia (recall tanks), Ukraine (recall attempted assasination of pro-west Yushchenko and election of Kremlin-backed Yanukovich), and now Poland (convenient "accident" removing pro-West pain-in-the-ass Kaczynski). Hitler and Stalin too had similar ambitions, Putin is simply following "tradition." Anyway, one does not become a lietenant colonel in the KGB and a two-term Russian president (soon third term once Medvedev is out) by being a wallflower with a high moral character. Why do you think everyone is so afraid of Putin (and YES, the world IS very afraid of him--with Russians the most scared because of the killings in Russia of Putin's opponents. This is not about Russia-Polish relations; this is all about politics and power.
Can you comprehend what you talking about? What are you?
Yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Try to not get so emotional--Putin certainly isn't. Putin's hero is Stalin (well known fact) and Putin's goal is to create Imperial Russia II with himself as czar. West stands in the way, so get rid of neighboring western influence in Georgia (recall tanks), Ukraine (recall attempted assasination of pro-west Yushchenko and election of Kremlin-backed Yanukovich), and now Poland (convenient "accident" removing pro-West pain-in-the-ass Kaczynski). Hitler and Stalin too had similar ambitions, Putin is simply following "tradition." Anyway, one does not become a lietenant colonel in the KGB and a two-term Russian president (soon third term once Medvedev is out) by being a wallflower with a high moral character. Why do you think everyone is so afraid of Putin (and YES, the world IS very afraid of him--with Russians the most scared because of the killings in Russia of Putin's opponents. This is not about Russia-Polish relations; this is all about politics and power.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
The best predictor for someone's motives are past actions. So for Putin you need only look as far as Politkovskaya and other outspoken journalists, Yushchenko (dioxin poisoning), Litvinenko (polonium 210--of all poisons, oh my!). Why you think so many Russians (Putin's foes) flee to London? Putin is not a difficult man to decipher if you understand his mentality.
The best predictor for someone's motives are past actions. So for Putin you need only look as far as Politkovskaya and other outspoken journalists, Yushchenko (dioxin poisoning), Litvinenko (polonium 210--of all poisons, oh my!). Why you think so many Russians (Putin's foes) flee to London? Putin is not a difficult man to decipher if you understand his mentality.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Stupid would be to only consider innocent and pure-as-virgin-snow propaganda version.
The idea is just too stupid to consider...
Stupid would be to only consider innocent and pure-as-virgin-snow propaganda version.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Quite the opposite--much to gain and little to lose. Little to lose because no country dares mess with Russia and suffer her wrath. Putin knows damn well he holds the aces and that nobody is so stupid as to dare starting a war over this. Gain--much indeed; too much to go into here...but if you clicked on the link I provided earlier that's a start.
Russia has nothing to gain from such an act , and so very much to lose
Quite the opposite--much to gain and little to lose. Little to lose because no country dares mess with Russia and suffer her wrath. Putin knows damn well he holds the aces and that nobody is so stupid as to dare starting a war over this. Gain--much indeed; too much to go into here...but if you clicked on the link I provided earlier that's a start.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
No, motive was simply revenge as it was with Litvinenko, Yushchenko et al. Recall that Yushchenko too, like Kaczynski, was pro-West. Also, getting rid of Kaczynski will certainly discourage his successor from keeping Poland in this missile defense deal, as it is well known how furious Putin was with it. So, to avoid Putin's fury and therefore similar fate as Kaczynski, successor to Polish presidency will likely think twice.
don`t say that you believe that Russia expect that if there is no Kaczynski, there won`t be missile shield in Poland? Its naive
No, motive was simply revenge as it was with Litvinenko, Yushchenko et al. Recall that Yushchenko too, like Kaczynski, was pro-West. Also, getting rid of Kaczynski will certainly discourage his successor from keeping Poland in this missile defense deal, as it is well known how furious Putin was with it. So, to avoid Putin's fury and therefore similar fate as Kaczynski, successor to Polish presidency will likely think twice.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Crow, did you click on the link I provided? Your answer is there for the most part.
But then, real question is- who organized assassination? What particular interests?
Crow, did you click on the link I provided? Your answer is there for the most part.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Anyone who buys this "accident" crap--proof that propaganda is working its "magic."
Anyone who buys this "accident" crap--proof that propaganda is working its "magic."
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Thank-you, czar, my point exactly.
Thank-you, czar, my point exactly.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Well, here's a start, Sherlock:
if, IF, Kaczynski was assassinated, why would Russia do that?
Well, here's a start, Sherlock:
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Wow, Jed, that is really naive. Accident is LEAST likely whenever poltician dies violent death. I see this forum is dead space, aside from czar ;)
Wow, Jed, that is really naive. Accident is LEAST likely whenever poltician dies violent death. I see this forum is dead space, aside from czar ;)
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
*Ahem* It was a Polish aircraft with Polish officials and Polish investigator's were "supposed" to be conducting their own investigation... so, gee anything besides being orchestrated by Putin would be a start. But that's too far out on a limb for you, is it? I take it you are not Slav who has had a peek behind Iron Curtain.
The crash happened in Russia...who else is going know anything to tell the media....?
*Ahem* It was a Polish aircraft with Polish officials and Polish investigator's were "supposed" to be conducting their own investigation... so, gee anything besides being orchestrated by Putin would be a start. But that's too far out on a limb for you, is it? I take it you are not Slav who has had a peek behind Iron Curtain.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Jed, refrain from tantrum--you sound like evangelical...
So, is Mr Putin God and devil in one person? How easy to explain everything!
Jed, refrain from tantrum--you sound like evangelical...
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Of course there is no independent evidence--have you not noticed which side is exclusively "updating" the media? And smearing nothing but the pilot. Why? Because dead men can't talk (KGB motto).
If there is the slightest chance the Russians were involved in this crash i will condem them as loud as anyone else , but there is absolutly no evidence of anything other than a tragic accident caused by human error....
Of course there is no independent evidence--have you not noticed which side is exclusively "updating" the media? And smearing nothing but the pilot. Why? Because dead men can't talk (KGB motto).
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Czar, no Poland is not stupid to risk WWIII over Kaczynski. What I mean is how the Western media just swallows everything as gospel from the side who would have most to hide. This "truth" coming from a murderer of the likes of Politkovskaya, Litvinenko (no saint, I know) etc. etc. Since when did Putin become such an advocate for the truth, when journalists whose job it is end up with bullets in their heads? I am just in disbelief how so soon after the fact, it was swallowed hook, line, and sinker by every Western media outlet.
Czar, no Poland is not stupid to risk WWIII over Kaczynski. What I mean is how the Western media just swallows everything as gospel from the side who would have most to hide. This "truth" coming from a murderer of the likes of Politkovskaya, Litvinenko (no saint, I know) etc. etc. Since when did Putin become such an advocate for the truth, when journalists whose job it is end up with bullets in their heads? I am just in disbelief how so soon after the fact, it was swallowed hook, line, and sinker by every Western media outlet.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Sorry, my previous message was addressing Filios1...
Sorry, my previous message was addressing Filios1...
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
Really? You "know" this how? Even Polish investigatos have not yet had access to the flight data. Why is only Russia talking so loud? I suggest you maybe watch something other than FOX news.
Really? You "know" this how? Even Polish investigatos have not yet had access to the flight data. Why is only Russia talking so loud? I suggest you maybe watch something other than FOX news.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
What better place for Putin to do it than on Russian soil where already Polish blood so heavily spilled? Control of investigation, control of access to crime scene, control of media and release of information. And, of course, control of media in Russia is unheard of (sarcasm). Now only have to be a good actor, make sure you get photographed embracing Tusk and voilà! You are hero to Poland and the world. Polska, do not be so easily deceived...you did not survive Hitler and Stalin for THIS.
What better place for Putin to do it than on Russian soil where already Polish blood so heavily spilled? Control of investigation, control of access to crime scene, control of media and release of information. And, of course, control of media in Russia is unheard of (sarcasm). Now only have to be a good actor, make sure you get photographed embracing Tusk and voilà! You are hero to Poland and the world. Polska, do not be so easily deceived...you did not survive Hitler and Stalin for THIS.
Olga
13 Apr 2010
News / Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom? [921]
If you want the bees to come, put out the honey. And what better honey for top Polish brass than Katyn memorial with Putin himself in attendance. Make no mistake, being elite trained former lietenant colonel of KGB, Putin was well-schooled in the Art of War.
If you want the bees to come, put out the honey. And what better honey for top Polish brass than Katyn memorial with Putin himself in attendance. Make no mistake, being elite trained former lietenant colonel of KGB, Putin was well-schooled in the Art of War.