News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


I think it was an accident.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't be suspicios with this unprecedented crash. But world powers have already accepted this as an accident - and that's all.

Do you like conspiracy theories? OK - here is mine:
If somebody decided to kill him - the possible reason is that he became useless but informed pawn - and dangerous because he could share his information - say as a protest against Ukraine being sold to Russia.

Any idiot can point to Russians and blame them for any s*t on earth - other idiots will just agree without any doubts. We know it and somebody who planned it also knew it.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


I believe it is a common practice - to investigate them in the counrtry of crush and where the aircraft was produced. If it is not, why your government and international community keep silence about it?

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Better to whom? For most Russians at the moment Putin looks better then any of his predecessors in the last 100 years of our violent history.


We may only guess about their plans - who knows exactly?

To make Europe less dependent is a good idea by itself.

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There is no such mentality in our government anymore. Communist party has a minority in Duma (parliament) and has no positions in government.

Some old veterans think that it is good to remember Stalin "positive role" in WWII. But even among them it is a minority.

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You can't believe it but Putin is not the only citizen in Russia. Other 140 millions are also exist.

That particular decision was made by Mr Luzhkov - major of Moscow. This decision is now cancelled.

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Don't pay too much attention to small details. Saakashvili started the confict - it is true fact. Russia won a position in Georgia as a result. There is no evil and good there - just clever and stupid. And it is not clear yet who is clever there (not related to Saakashvili indeed).

Stop thinking by stereotypes, please.


You may think this way or another - just be calm. Nobody has monopoly for truth - the truth is too big for our heads. Our opinions are only projections of partial truth - we see it from different coordinate systems.

From this point any two opposite opinions together could be more true than any particular one.

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Easy - Geogia is alternative way for oil and gas pipes from Caspian Sea and Central Asia. Monopoly is better for profit. Geogia was a part of plan of former US administration for Russia isolation - but Saakashvili was too hot and started a conflict in Ossetia. This was not in US plan.

The plan has now changed and US puppetts in Georgia, Ukraine and ... are not necessary anymore. The game now has differernt rule - who will pay (lost) more money to these countries. Russia is not clever here.

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I think we need to know past and think more about future.

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I'm interested to know more about your way of thinking - and why you still prefer to use reflexes instead of clever heads when think about Russia.

I work for British company in Moscow and they were thinking to involve Moscow office in their business in Poland. Wrong idea from my point of view.

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He had a hope to put the war against Germany future apart - he tried to push Hitler to the west. He rejected any intelligence information about Hitler’s plan and even repressed those who warned him about. His main aim was not "to provoke" Germans for war and he was think about himself as a genius. He was sure that Western allies try to put him to the war first. He wasn't a genius and underestimated Hitler madness.

When the war started he was completely shocked and disappeared for several days - his policy failed.

Don't forget also about other danger for SU in the Far East - Japan. There were hot conflics and local small wars between SU and Japan - in Mongolia and SU Far East in the late 30-s - started by Japanese. Stalin succeeds in the game there. Otherwise the results of WWII would be different.

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I realize that Poles think Poland-centered. But to understand try to think just wider - there is now a lot of documents from those times. Without it all your conclusions will be wrong.

You should know that Germans invaded Poland and SU invaded Baltic states and part of Poland not because they agreed to live in piece forever. As you found by yourself there was nothing of special economic interest on all these territories for SU - except their strategic importance for next big war. It was just a part of the game for future big war preparation.

All "big boys" - SU, UK, France, and Germany - understood that they can't avoid real big war and played for time. They used smaller countries as pawns. Czech, Poland, Baltic states and Finland were first victims of this game but they never been an aim for big powers.

Stalin was not ready for big war at the end of 30-s - beg. of 40-s: he just completed "chistka" ="cleansing" of army and communist party to strengthen his dictatorship - he killed tens of thousands officers and left Red Army without head. He also tried to develop heavy industry in order to increase military production. He proposed alliance and military help to UK, France, Germany, Poland and Czech against Germany- but it was rejected and Western countries left Czech for Hitler without war. Poland even took part in Czech dismemberment - showing an example for Stalin. Poland also had a hope for alliance with Germany against Stalin - they couldn’t even think about opposite alliance.

The Western allies plan was to put Hitler for war in East, not West. Stalin just make an opposite plan and succeed in the start - Western allies proclaimed war against Hitler. But they did nothing. Unfortunately for Stalin Hitler decided that SU is weak enough and started the big war in June 1941 - he believed that the war will be short and after that he will have enough resources for war against UK without danger from the East. You all know the end of story and who won that big game in the late 80-s - USA and UK.

It could be disappointing to think about evil targeting you and your countries but found instead that the evil just didn't even take you into account.

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Another example of comics reader. The only reason why we are where we are now - because communist ideas failed and Russians turned out of them. And you are still fight in the past war.

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Guys, your image of Russia looks for me like you take it from comics for simplicity level.


I don't like to see ethnic cleansing results.

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I understand you BB. German civilians suffered a lot and many awful crimes were commited against them at the end of war. As I told I am for personal resposibility, not for common - and for Germans too.

I visited Kaliningrad region last year and I didn't like what I found there even now. But what can we do - practical things?

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I expect nothing special and when I speak I always speak for myself only. I don't want "to look like" - I just try to express my opinion in discussion. And I think this is the only thing we can do now - to have open discussion for better understanding.

I just not clearly understand what you want - point by point. The crimes we speak about are accepted as crimes by everybody and put to history books as crimes. Many facts are mixed with propaganda - and far not only communists propaganda.

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What practical results you would expect from it if it would started? If it is possible - please find out their names to put on their graves and leave their souls in piece.

The only lesson we can get is that never again war should happen.

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How we can punish an old nazi of over 80-90 years old? He is already punished by life living in fear.

But for Nazis we at least had a trial verdict. May be somebody already invented time machine and we are able to reverse history?


I would want to leave it for history and historians. We are not able to save lives and even not able to punish criminals. Time passed and it is too late.

You need to stop blaming - those who guilty will never respond and whose who innocent will never accept responsibility.

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Don't think so. You've provided a message about crime -yes, it's a crime and should be investigated. I don't think we should hide criminals - but I also don't trust to any German or Polish investigator in this case - so we will need a kind of independent trial or commision. In theory it is possible but I don't believe in any practical result.

But what if we start to investigate all Nazis crimes on FSU territory? There are still a lot left without any investigation.

The war is over. The losers were put to the trial and punished. End of story and start of history. The only other possibility is to start a war again. I wouldn't like the idea, but if you insist...

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No trial - no guilty.

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What do you mean? How also we should recognise Soviet crimes from your point of view?

Should we blame our old veterans of WWII in any crimes? It will never happen. I prefer evolution over any revolution.

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My message is not about to blame all Jews or Poles or somebody else as a whole nation. I believe that every criminal has his own name and family name.

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Minorities of Russian Empire were among most active supporters of communist's revolution in 1917 – Jews (and some remarkable Poles and Latvians) were majority in communist government until end of 20-s - beg. of 30-s – when Stalin got the power and removed many of his Jewish “competitors” like Trotsky. Until the WWII and even before Stalin death in 1953 ethnic Russians were not a majority among communist party and NKVD leaders. It is clear that ethnic Russians “chauvinists” were the major danger for communist rulers and suffered more than others. The majority of Russian elite – were killed or forced to leave the country in civil war of 1918-1920 by illiterate Russian workers and farmers under communist’s leadership.

Beria (NKVD chief who proposed to kill Polish officers in his report to Stalin) and Stalin (who signed it) were both Georgians - and funny that if they would live now they would be foreigners in Russia and would possible vote for Saakashvili as their president.

But it is not politically correct to remember it and now Russians are the only guilty in all those crimes – I believe we need to support personal responsibility rather than common or ethnic.

..

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Yes, we accept it. But we can't change the history - and we can't change ourselves too fast.

And you know that Germans lost independence and were forced for changes. They already paid their heavy price and now should be free.

We are trying to do the same without external force by ourselves.

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He used any human resourses he could find especially at the end of the war. As you know Stalin also wasn't young and died in 1953. Next one (Khrushchev) was already much better compared to Stalin.

Hitler's main mistake was that WWII became a national patriotic war for Russians. And we just couldn't lost - doesn't matter how heavy losses we had. WW1 was quite different for us and lead to revolution and civil war. Nobody yet successfully won against Russia in patriotic war - we lost only to ourselves.

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I think the key words here "Nazis used" - we had no opportunity to know what they would do with this "used" people.

Hitler plans for Slavs and other "lower" race people are in his published books and he had no opportunity to complete his plans. But his failed start was very impressive.

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Well, for you - may be. I don't know who are you but it's even possible Hitler would be even good for you – if you belong to the right race from Hitler’s point of view (nothing personal).

Personally for me and for all other Russians and Slavs Hitler name means death or slavery without any hope. With Stalin we somehow survive and may now talk to you.

They both were devils but they had different criteria for mass murders - race and nationality for Hitler and economic classes without any relation to nationality for Stalin. The last one was easier for us to survive. But too many people died for nothing.

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Partly true. Unfortunately they signed a contract with even worse devil.

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Yes, possible there were such cases but definitely less than we now talk about. It became a propaganda tool against Soviets after the war - communist's propaganda is not better just used different tools.

You describe Soviet army which would couldn't exist as an army - not talking about winning against strong enemy. It's soldiers were not angels but they struggled against European "true Aryes" and before entering Europe saw what they did in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. More than 15 million civilians were murdered by Nazis on USSR territory.


ROA - Russian Liberation Army - collaborated to Nazis and were our enemies. As these they were prisoners of war and founded their right place after the war.

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There was a civil war in 1918-20 - White movement lost, most educated people were killed. Any resistance was supressed with mass murders.
Stalin "cult" was removed after 1953 and most radical NKVD officers were killed or were put to prison -but by other communists. Mass murders and repressions were stopped after that. Stalin was already a history when I was young.

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History is not reversable.

I would be happy if Western democracies could won war against Hitler without Russians. May be it would help us to remove Stalin and communism earlier and save more lives.


Looks like I missed the moment when you opened a case against rapists? There was an army tribunal for rapists in Soviet army.