Posts by DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

25 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Obviously, revision often has a political bias (doesn't all history?) but surely the answer is to fight fire with fire. irving has become a celebrity martyr because people ban him, jail him etc but rarely engage him in direct debate. While they say it gives him credibility if they engage with him, it also allows him to put up his hands and say 'Oh, they mustn't have an argument" when they don't engage.

I agree 100%!

They have made martyrs of all of them, Zundel, Irving..the lot. Instead of saying, ok, let's have a debate, let's examine everything, they say; Silence! Off to prison you go! How easy is it not for them to say, "I'm a victim". These kind of people THRIVE under such circumstances!

One doesn't "legitimize" someone just because one debates them. Whoever concocted up that undemocratic phrase should be ashamed of himself.

And when Zundel got his time in court back in the 80's, at the infamous "Zundel-trials", he didn't do all that bad, actually. Now isn't that better than silencing/imprisoning them? These are not stupid people, and they would accept defeat if it evidence was put before them.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

25 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

So that is actually a 'NO' then.

Yes, because muslims do not share our values of democracy, freedom of speech, equality among the sexes, accepting homosexuality and that children have rights too. There are too many differences between our societies and cultures for us to co-exist. And again, just read the muslims holy book. In it you will find things that contradict most of our western values and teachings.

How can you argue freedom of speech for someone who doesn't want it for you?

David Irving might be a loonie, but he is loonie that does not want to transform our society into a sharia-law-abiding, intolerant and uneducate/religious dunghole. He merely offends people. Many do that. It's allowed. But muslims want to forbid this offending, on a basis that they are a religion, and therefore protected under our new hate-laws.

And calling all Muslims terrorists, "Death cult"you do without blinking an eye, there is a whiff of hypocrisy off you.

Maybe. Of course not all muslims are terrorists! I know many muslims who are not! :-) But their way of life will, once they have outbred us westeners, will be our way of life. Do you want to exchange your peoples' history, culture and heritage with theirs? Have you been to their countries? Compare them to Italy, Spain, France, to the architecture, the philosphy, the history. It boggles one's mind, to think that someone looks at both our cultures equally and equates them, who thinks that they are the same and that it doesn't matter if one take over the other.

Yes of course there is, one is changing history about which you approve of and the other is about changing history which you disapprove of.
Tell us all again about how a holocaust denier is in the right while Muslims should shut up and leave Europe.

There is a BIG difference SeanBM. One writes books and takes tours...harmless. The other really tries to change our WHOLE society from within by sheer numbers, and evetually by force. Now if there was a million David Irvings, then we might be talking about a real threat. For now, the revisionists comprise of a couple of dozen pensioneers who sit in their offices reading old papers to amuse themselves. If you put all the holocaust revisionists together, they would probably not fill up a medium size tour bus. Not exactly the same thing is it. I am NOT a holocaust denier, I just like to have an open mind on history. And one can't get away from the fact that much that has been said about the holocaust have been fabrications and lies. Now where these start, and where they stop is open for discussion! Which we can have, since we live in a democracy and enjoy freedom of speech. Now try do to this in Iran, and try to have a debate about Mohammed or about anything in the Quran...and see how far that get's you. (And you do of course know that the Iranian president denies the holocaust? Not because of freedom of speech, but because he hates jews. And where does he get these wonderful ideas? The Quran..).

We are trying to have a discussion, this is just a stupid comment.
This is a pitiful ''cry of persecution''.

Well, it might be pitiful, but it's the truth. Most leftist today have this notion that only the white, rich societies are evil, and that the muslim world never did anything wrong, and only want to live in peace with us. But if you bothered to pick up any history book, you would find evidence on the contrary. When even heads of state of a muslim countries openly brag that they will conquer Europe, not by swords and canons, but by baby-carriages and that muslims in Europe should not integrate, but keep their faith and traditions and multiply, then we should stop and listen. (Ghadaffi and Erdogan, from Libya and Turkey respectively).

This is about hate, read the title of the thread, DariuszTelka is only interested in ''saving'' those who he agrees with, in this case a hateful holocaust denier.

There is a difference in saying that David Irving should be allowed his little "tour", without the state imprisoning him, even if what he says is wrong and in many eyes, distasteful, than equating it with a medieval cult, who says that anyone who disagrees with them are infidels and will either pay up or loose their life. Agree? Revisionists never beheaded, stoned, shot, blew up, mamed, tortured, raped, killed or took over whole city areas in the arab world. But muslims have done this, in the name of their religion, in our countries. IF and WHEN the David Irvings of this world start doing this too, we will be on the same page, SeanBM.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

25 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Given your argument, would you "allow" free speech of the minority of extremist Muslims who hate the "West"?

Or does your attitude change when the person is not a holocaust denier?

Yes, of course. In their own country. Not in Europe. Oh wait, they don't have free speech in their countries. I don't believe such a racist, homophobic, sexist and intolerant cult, disguised as religion, should be allowed to openly practice it's barbaric and undemocratic ways openly among our civilized nations. It goes against every value and democratic right we have fought so many wars to achieve. And now we open the door to our medieval past and let in this trojan horse, which if it continues at today's pace will erase our whole society and fabric of life as we know it.

For Europeans I would love it if we had the first amendment of the U.S...unfortunately the more multicultural we become, the more draconian laws they have to make, to "force" us to live amongst one another. Now wee have hate-laws, laws against racism, homophobia and so on. Every year there are more laws, more restrictions on our freedom. The muslims have taken advantage of this and claim that critisizing their religion is "hate". But what about the content of their holy book? If it came out today, with a blank cover, and said it was a "new" religion, it would probably be banned...just like Mein Kampf is.

There is a difference of Europeans debating about historic facts/myths and allowing a death cult to establish itself amongst us.

And the hate laws are 99% meant to be used agains Europeans anyway. Only "we" Europeans can be racist, not the non-Europeans. They have NEVER been racist, started ANY wars, conquered ANY land or have NEVER enslaved ANYONE in their whole existence! Only whitey did these things. People actually believe this.

About your comment on who believes the mosque should be built/rebuilt/allowed to be built near Ground Zero, and then refuse Irving to speak/walk around freely in Auschwitz, we need not look further than here on PF. I believe you and jonni fall under this category.

If I'm wrong on this point, then I'll apologize. But am I? (Be honest).

Dariusz Telka

DariuszTelka

24 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Given that I use phrases such as "all Poles" and "the Poles who trained at Trawniki", you might like to read what I actually write before concluding you understand what I mean.

I conclude that you mean "All Poles", as in the whole Polish nation. If you don't, then you should state that a bit clearer next time. Your attack on Poland, Polish people and Polish history is infamous here on PF. You reek of hate against the country that you live in. Why, only you know.

Neither Sawoniuk nor Serafinowicz were Jewish but Poland made no attempt to extradite either: instead they were both charged with war crimes by the British government (and yes it was post-1989).

I was thinking more about Solomen Morel who is said to have killed over 1500 people, mostly Germans and Poles after the second world war in concentration camps on Polish territory;

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4659985.stm

Not to mention all the guards and leaders of the jewish/communist led concentration camps in Poland after the war.

Also included in this list are the Bielski brothers (Who are all dead now), who are under investigation by the Polish Institute of National Rememberance for their crimes against humanity.

If as you claim 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Beslan, Bali, Moscow and Mumbai suggest something about all Muslims, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka, Auschwitz and Majdanek must prove the same thing about all white Europeans. Of course it proves no such thing and thus shows that your logic is utterly worthless tripe designed solely to excuse bigotry.

Wow, you have got some hate going on there Harry. Take an easy pill, will you?

Muslims kill in the name of Allah and Mohammed. Europeans killed in the name of political insanity, and they are all gone, dead and many of them sentenced before they met their maker. They were nazis and commies, and the rest of "White Europeans", actually MILLIONS of them, gave their lives to stop them. Now, how many muslim countries put up armies and fight against the muslim terrorists? Compare the numbers and you will find that your logic is lacking on all areas.

Would you defend Nazis, because "not all nazis are bad?" Islam is way more racist than National Socialism ever was. So why defend islam? Why not defend Nazis? They are protected under the "Race, religion and political" acts of Europe. It's not illegal to be a National Socialist or Communist in Norway....

The muslims, a bit closer to our actual reality, are still out there, planning the next mass-terror attack. Now how am I bigoted and have a worthless logic, because I want to stop these people before they can do more harm? Were the resistance groups in the Warszawa ghetto "bigots"? Did the resistance groups all over Europe who fought for their freedom against the Soviets or Germans have "worthless logic"? Come on now, Harry, come back to reality, will you?

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

24 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Could you perhaps quote the part where I say that Poland is a criminal nation? Or even the part where I say anything about Poland as a nation?

I just assume it from the way you write. You say "Poles", but you don't specify who you mean. You say "Polish people". From that I guess/think that you mean "Poles" as in ALL Poles.

Like here;

Almost all Poles refuse to admit that even a single Pole ever passed through Trawniki as a guard, even when those men were more Polish than Chopin!

The real Poland has good people, and it has bad people. All nations have good people and bad people. Saying that there has never been a bad Pole is as untrue as saying that all Poles are bad.

I agree.

Poland didn't deal with those people (although it didn't have much chance as none of them came back to Poland after the war). From memory Hajda was investigated after the war but as he wasn't in Poland nothing could be done. Sawoniuk and Serafinowicz both joined the same regiment of the Polish army.

I know Poland has tried to convict war-criminals and sent out papers to international police forces and other nations to return these to Poland, but from what I've read, it's been hard. Especially the jewish war criminals who fled to Israel. Israel has a policy of not sending any Israely citizen out, for whatever reason, to stand trial in another country.

You dont seem to have much of a problem with painting entire ethnic groups on the basis of the actions of a few people.

If you refer to islam, then it's not an ethnic group, but a political evil, disguised as religion. I only have to ask you to read their "holy book", there you will find racism, sexism, homophobia and the worst forms of derogatory language about non-muslims. It makes Mein Kampf, which by the way sells very well in islamic states, look like a sunday prayer book in a Quaker village.

And if you look at the amount of terrorists, terror-attacks and violence people who are of muslim faith stand for in all the European/Western, not to talk about their own nations. I don't think we are talking about "the actions of a few people", Harry. More like hundreds of thousands. (9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Beslan, Bali, Moscow, Mumbai...)

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

24 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

I feel calling these people "Polish" is a bit harsh, as in Norway, these kind of people who joined other armies or did not support the Norwegian government were branded "Traitors", even to such as extent that the bigges traitor in Norway before and during the second world war, Vidkun Quisling, got his name in the international dictionary as being synonym with "traitor"!

I am not schooled about the people mentioned here, but I would believe if they served in the SS or in any foreign army, and against "The real Poland", they were traitors. No?

So, calling them "Polish", as in that they represent the real Poland, is something I would argue about. In Norway, the traitors lost their citizenships, lost their rights to vote, to own property and even to work in certain areas. They were lost souls, and rightfully so. All countries have such people, but to brand Poland as a nation with these peoples actions and say it reflects something more than a posse of unpatriotic hodlums is going a bit too far.

Many countries would be guilty of many things if this was the norm, or the standard of which a country/people are being measured up against.

Some jews are swindlers and crooks, are ALL jews swindlers and crooks? Is Israel a criminal nation, because SOME of it's inhabitants kill small children with machine guns?

Are Americans bad and evil, because they took much of the land from the Indians?

Should the British today be held responsible for what the Catholic church did during it's heydays, when they were torturing and killing people in the name of god?

Should Poland be held responsible for these 5-6 individuals if they were rotten apples? Is it fair, that Harry uses their actions against Poles 50-60 years later?

If Poland dealt with these people, and did whatever was correct to make them answer to their crimes, then I don't think Poland should be as a hostage for their actions. Yes we can learn from them, we can try to prevent such things from happening again, but I would never be so bold as to use horrendous crimes perpetrated by "traitors", and paint a whole people and nation with their crimes.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

23 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Is this the same Tadeusz Borowski that wrote the book titled "The Death Of Schillinger", where he claims that "Lagerfuhrer" Schillinger, killed tens of thousands of people by hugging them with his iron grip?

codoh.com/newsite/articles/bradleysmith/adoc02a.html

(From Borowskis book)

"Schillinger reigned over sector 'D' with an iron hand. He could strike a blow as hard as a metal bar; he could crack a jaw or crush the life out of a man [by hugging him to death] with no apparent effort".

But somehow, only Tadeusz Borowski knew who this "hugging-murderer" of tens of thousands of people was;

(Comment from Codoh)

"You would think such a monster Jew-killer would be mentioned in some of the well-known titles in the literature of Holocaust cultism. Maybe he is. But his name is not indexed in Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews . He's not mentioned in Leon Poliakov's Harvest of Hate , or The Holocaust Years: Society On Trial " by Chartock and Spencer, or Reitlinger's The Final Solution , or Levin's The Holocaust , or in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer".

I'm just saying....use some common sense people. One can be a great writer, a poet, but it doesn't mean you should take everything he/she says for granted. So many of the writers on the Holocaust have been exposed as liars, too many, for me to accept their memoirs without some proof.

It also says in the article that the Russian newspaper Pravda now has distributed a pamphlet called "On the Path of Aggression and Racism", in which it states that the jews in Palestine and America denied the European jews help, in order to fast-forward the establishment of a jewish state, and that the holocaust would help with this. Here's a quote from Yitzchak Greenbaum, who in February 1943 was acting chairman of the Zionist Committee for the Rescue of European Jewry;

"When they [Diaspora Jews] come to us with two plans-the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe , or the redemption of the land [ Palestine ]-I vote without a second thought for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraization of the land [ Palestine ]. If there were a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the [United Jewish Appeal] to send it through Lisbon [to the concentration camps], would we do such a thing? No! And once again, no!"

It also mentions that the numbers of killed jews were inflated to help with the propaganda.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

23 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

This is a disgrace. To deny people freedom of movement or speech in 2010 is just plain sick. Whatever he said or did. He paid his price in court, and he did his time in jail. It's the same thing for the mosque in New York, the same people who defend building the mosque in New York, are the same people who would ban or "closely monitor" David Irving in Auschwitz. What about installing cameras and microphones in every mosque/church/synagogoue in the world, and directly link it to the CIA, NSA and Homeland security? No? Why not? If someone is lying/practicing hate speech wouldn't you want to know about it?

The jewish torah tells of jesus boiling in his own excrements and that his mother, the virgin Mary, was a *****. The koran tells of non-belivers as infidels and that they should be subjugated to force of conversion or taxed/killed if not. The catholics tells us of purgatory for non-beliverse and that all are born with sin. Now if that's not hate speech, then I don't know what is. But still, priests/rabbies/imams from all these faiths come together in all western countries and talk about peace and understanding. The media goes along, and no goverments or public officials monitor them 24/7, when they preach. Noone bans their books or speeches, although what they claim IS hatespeech!

But if some 72-year old fart comes along, challenging some historical facts/myths/whatever, oh la la, sound the air raid sirene! Here comes some geriatric fool with a tailgate of 12 people who represent 0.00000001% of the population. Hold the headlines! Clear the police cells! Democracy is under attack! Western democracy can celebrate itself in it's self-indulgent glory of double standards and lack of reality...

Are you going to closely monitor catholics in protestant churches? Are you going to closely monitor jews in mosques? Are you going to closely monitor homosexuals in straight bars? Are you going to closely monitor Africans/Europeans/Indians/Aboriginees/Martians if they are out of their areas? Who draws the line, and for whom? They all preach/think/believe contradictory to eachother, they all disagree, and they all "lie", if one looks at it from that perspective.

What about the Israeli school tours to Krakow/Auschwitz that have been exposed as pure "hate-tours"? The students are being instilled hatred from day 1. All poles are evil, anti-semitic and want to kill them! They are being "protected" by security staff so the people waiting for them can't reach them with pitch-forks and zyklon-B! They bring with them mossad/bodyguards who attack innocent bystanders in the streets, block off peoples homes with their buses/entourage, and create tension among the local population. Then they defecate in the hotel beds and throw food on the walls and ceilings and destroy hotel property. When they encounter local people they who ask who they are, they hysterically think that they are being verbally attaced, while the fact is nothing could further from the truth. After crying their way through the camp with their oversized flags and plakards, getting "vicitmized" enough for ten life-times, they all get back on the bus, singing "Shalom Malechem", feeling like the "chosen ones", while the rest of the goyims/non-jews are being thought of as worthless, anti-semitic trash. If ANY other country/people did this to their school-children, they would be labelled crazy/nazi/racist/fascist/new popular word to stifle debate.

Now, THOSE tours are accepted, both by the Israeli governement, the Polish governement and the media, and as the article mentioned, they have what is most important, they have "acknowledged tour guides". Whatever that means. How about freedom of speech? And how about people like Simon Wiesenthal, Misha Defonseca, Herman Rosenblat or Elie Wiesel? They all lied too in their memoirs, would they be "monitored closely" showing people around in Auschwitz, in case they said something that wasn't correct? (Emphasis on "like", as some of these people are not longer alive).

It all smells like rotten fish to me.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

17 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Another weird comment - have you finished the treatment by the way?

Coming from the man who hates racists/nazis but accepts islam....hmm.

Tell us then.

I think it would be more interesting to hear your explanation.

Not accepted by whom?

By you?

And who buys them? And how would you know what "nazis/racists care about"?
We're all ears.

It used to be universities, libraries, governements, the military, history teachers, people who are interested in history in general. You think "racists" or "nazis" buy 50 dollar books that are 800-900 pages thick? I know both racist, nazis, muslims, mormons, catholics, leftists, communists...and I've seen their book collections. But you do know that Mein Kampf is a best seller outside of Europe? Especially in the muslim world. Now...you want to explain that?

I know a lot of things, jonni!

Yes, clearly we should nail Wiesenthal to the wall for his efforts to hunt down your heroes and we should bow down to Irving for his efforts to excuse and rehabilitate your heroes.

It's such a pity that you weren't born a couple of generations earlier: you could have been another of the Poles who trained at Trawniki before serving at the Aktion Reinhard camps.

If someone who pretends to represent the truth and is universally accepted as one who speaks it, is caught lying, then he should be exposed. Nothing more sinister than that, Harry.

It's not about his hunting of war criminals. It's the fact that he was caught lying, over and over again. And his books are used at schools, in using facts about the holocaust, making movies etc. Wouldn't you want the truth, rather than a lie, when looking at history?

Irving may be a liar, a cheat a con-man, who knows. But so is Wiesenthal, so why not treat them as such? Why give one medals and the other a prison sentence? Irving might be a great friend to someone, a great father, an organ donor for that sake, does that excuse his lies? I don't think so.

Again, the hate, Harry. You need to relax, take a pill. Or something.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

17 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

than the ideology of hate.

Are we talking about islam now, jonni?

Shortcomings or not, Dr Wiesenthal

So, what's with the double standards? David Irving has some shortcomings too, but his are not accepted. However Wiesenthals are? They both wrote books, they both lied.

while at the same time enjoying the attention he gets from racist groups

No nazis/racists care about David Irving, he is too complicated and sophisticated for them. He writes books that are 500+ pages.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

17 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Richard Evans, the historian and expert witness

Who got 250 000 pounds to appear in the Irving vs Lipstadt trial....along with other experts who also received handsome payoffs of similar amount...now, what was Evans going to say for that much money?

Irving put his personal fortune into his trials, while Lipstadt and others get their expenses paid by wealthy supporters. Even if you have the truth on your side, if your opponent has unlimited funds and can get every person or expert from across the globe...you will have issues fighting them!

Here's a link to the Sunday Times, where a journalist picks apart holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthals many lies. If he lies about one thing, it's ok. If he lies about two things, one should be weary. If he lies about three things, one shouldn't trust him. Now, should we trust Simon Wiesenthal after all these lies have been exposed?

entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article6718913.ece

The Jewish Chronicle responds with this article by Associate editor of The Times, Daniel Finkelstein;

"It is right to expose Wiesenthal";

thejc.com/comment/columnists/it-right-expose-wiesenthal

I say, keep an open mind.

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

16 Sep 2010

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Just a small contribution to the debate;

Jewish professor Noam Chomsky defends holocaust revisionists and says;

"I have been informed that Vincent Reynouard has been charged and imprisoned for violation of the loi Gayssot and that a petition for his release is in circulation. I know nothing about Monsieur Reynouard but I regard this law as an absolutely illegitimate infringment of the principle of a free society, as it is been understood since the Enlightenment. As a consequence of this law the state has been granted the right to determine historical truth and to punish anyone who opposes its edicts. This is a principle that smacks of the sinister days of Stalinism and Nazism."

document.no/2010/09/chomsky_forsvarer_holocaust-be.html

DariuszTelka

DariuszTelka

2 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

France definitely.....

Haha, you love France the most, the country that "everyone" else in Europe hates..hm...or is that only on TV shows and something the Americans invented because France opened their country to you in 39 and didnt' resist? I've read that France had a real "upswing" during the war in cabarets, prostitution and alcohol sales...oh well, somebody has to love the French besides gays and young female students of the world.....j/k...eh... (I feel like a bigot now). My wife is a French teacher, so I'm writing this in absolute secrecy..

I'm all dizzy now....who doesn't like what and why can't whomever like whatever wherever? :-@

Sadly yes, it IS a problem...not only some hyped prejudice!

This is very sad, and I am for stronger sentences for these people who exploit and give Poland a bad name outside her borders! They should have a special law that adds to the sentence if you "with malice or without recognition that you are a diplomat of the Polish state have put the glorious state of Poland in a bad light". Extra lashes will be given at any time during your stay at the specially built prison called "Breakback motel". I'm almost serious....

I really have hopes for the future! :)

I understand this, and it would probably look the same if busloads of Poles went into Lviv or Minsk and walked around with old brown handwritten papers from the beginning of the last century, notepads and cameras talking about "their" houses...the locals there would probably tell them to go somewhere pretty warm. But as you said, after the EU, the Schengen deal and now that Poles feel more at ease things should come into a new era. As Poles are now allowed to travel freely over Europe themselves, hopefully they will open more up to the Germans and vice versa! The governments must make deals and figure out what to do with the people who lost property on either sides of the borders. The next generations have to move on.

Thanks for the input BB!

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

2 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

Sadly Poland does just not happen to blimp on the german radar besides if something negative happens

That is sad. But this is pretty normal in Europe between countries like Norway/Sweden, Holland/Belgium, England/Ireland etc. Right now, Denmark is attacking Sweden over some political party and it just looks like a circus. But that's how it is. It doesn't matter if it's two small countries with the combined populace of 14 million, or like in Germany and Polands case almost tenfolds, a whopping 130 000 000 people. It's the same bickering, the same low journalistic integrity. Why they do this, and why the media goes along, only they themselves can answer. How about France, Denmark or Austria, would you say they get more time or are talked about in more positive light in your media than Poland? And if you have the time and energy, would you rank the countries Germany borders with and tell us who you rate highest-lowest in your opinion (good-bad neighbour).

Is the problem with "Polish crime" really that big in Germany BB? The thefts of cars and so on? And why would Polish politicians use anti-German rhetoric? I would think they would like to expand on the trade, open for companies to establish themselves on both sides for increased markets and profits, having police and authorities work together cross-borders and going after the thieves! I know they do to a certain extent on the borders, where the border police actually learn the other countries' language to better the co-operation. I've even seen documentaries on this. (Fritz talks in broken Polish to Jacek on the Walkie-Talkie, that he has seen a rather modern looking Audi with 4 suspecting looking men coming over the border with broken tail-lights, and Jacek, replies in broken German that they are going to stop and question them.) ;-)))

Of course Poles blame the Germans for it but I'm not so sure...

Which is an interesting fact.

I was actually a little surprised when I visited Poland many years ago, that many Poles don't "hate" the Russians, but listen to their music and follows what happens there with some enthusiasm. When you think that the Russians were at least "as bad" as the Germans in war time, and even after, why would there be any "more" hate against the Germans? Germany has more to offer Poland today than Russia has. Maybe because there is no "real" border with Russia? (The one by the Baltic sea is more provincial and is from what I know completely broke). Besides all the bordertowns with Germany should inspire trade, culture and inter-marrying...hm. Now I'm talking from a Nordic perspective, and here mixed couples like Norwegian/Swedish or Norwegian/Danish are very common and the trade, the culture and the tourist industry are investing heavy money into making us come over the borders. One of the most known tourist slogans we hear in Norway is "It's good to be a Norwegian in Denmark!". I guess from your comments, you don't find to many "Visit Poland" brochures and posters hanging in the local travel-agency then?

And would one not think that considering the millions of Germans with Polish sounding names, and millions of Poles with German sounding names, all the inter-married familys, the fact that many of the regions are populated by people who don't really see themselves as "Germans" or "Polish", but as Sileans for example, that all this would make it EASIER for our countries to blend together rather than bicker and moan about all the bad stuff?

I also think that the upcoming football European championship can be a huge chance for Poland to become better known in the West. Germans will look at Poland/Ukraine very closely for a month..

I really hope they step up the plate and do a good job at this event. They will never ever in a million years have anything like this again, so attracting the west to Poland through this one-month window of opportunity is immensly important. Hopefully they will fix the roads, paint a bit on some grey buildings and improve customer friendliness, which I've read many here on PF complain about.

My hope is that time will heal most wounds, and that the next generations will see above past grievances and look to the future and not to the past. I understand the older people who still remember what happened or have strong stories that can not be forgotten. But the last people who were there are soon gone, and it's our task to build for the future. So, hopefully I'm not the only one who is ready to take the step in building another bridge across our borders. And one of the things I see as most important is to learn the language and master it. This shows that one really cares and opens more doors than if one just learnt the basic and stopped there. I know some Poles in Norway, who still after 30 years do not master the Norwegian language, and it just infuriates me.

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

2 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

Yes, unfortunately this is the truth. When the economy goes down, peoples' circle of trust get smaller and smaller, until the end when even the neighbour is your enemy.

In the article i linked to in the OP it mentiones that when the mayor of Görlitz Michael Wieler, addressing the fact that they didn't have a public pool, and proposed that the Germans could go to Zgorzelec to use their public pool, since it wasn't that much in use. Well that didn't go down well with some of the older people in Görlitz: "When Görlitz was debating the construction of a new swimming pool and Wieler procured figures showing how underused the pool in Zgorzelec was and recommended sharing it, one reader wrote a letter to the editor blasting the "delusions of an uprooted West German".

Now this is another discussion, maybe for a German forum, but the Germans are still getting over the whole "East/West" thing, and feeling close to Poles across the river may lie a bit into the future...first they have to work on their own history. And if things are as bad on the German side of the border as you have pointed out, then of course anyone that stick out just a little bit will get the stares.

Maybe BB has some input on the German/Polish relations in Germany or he has a story he wanst to share?

I'm just hoping that the resentment or differences that may lie underneath are just skin deep, and that actual life is possible on the whole. Here in Norway lot's of people have opinons about other Norwegians, depending on where they come from, and it may even be used in a negative way, but it's not the decisive factor by a long shot. Up here in the north, the Finns, Swedes and Danes are not exactly the best troika you could have in bar if you don't have insurance on your interior! So it depends on how deep the distrust or "hate" actually is between the Germans and the Poles, is it just an evil eye, or could a beer at the pub later if you get to know eachother solve it all? Or is it some DNA thing that you just don't mix? Like the English and Germans.

Here's a quite interesting link about Europeans and who they hate.....(humorous, but with some truth to it?).

"The Poles - Not much seems to register about Poland and the Poles except that they're quiet. They are a relatively big country (40 million people) so the supposed scare of being overrun by Eastern Europeans when a bunch of Eastern European countries joined the EU in 2005 focused in on the Poles. The Germans really don't like Poles, and among Germany's 9 neighbors, are disliked the most. Poland is considered a country of car thieves by the Germans. Really, the relationship between Germany and Poland is similar to that of the United States and Mexico [...]".

All the other countries are listed there too...

dailycandor.com/what-europeans-think-of-each-other/

(And read the commentaries too, some really good stuff there!).

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

2 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

I have the Norwegian passport. It's nice and red and let's me through most security checks more easily than my wife's american green one. I always make fun of her, rolling my eyes when she has to stand the extra minute at the passport security checkpoint, while they flip through her pages. She could use her Polish one, but it's out of date, and I wish she had updated the Polish one, when we went to Egypt once...somehow showing the american passport down there made me feel a little bit like a potential target...

My family background is a bit split, I was born in Poland (Mikolow), but my grandmother on my mothers side is Norwegian, and she took me to Norway when I was a small kid, and I've been here ever since. (36 now). Some of my family on my fathers side is mixed Polish/German from before the war, and I have seen the way they used write their names both in a Polish and German spelling, like my Telka, used to be Toelke, and I know my grandmother was born in Gdansk, under the name Raschke. I guess people adapted and changed their names according to who ruled what area at that time. My grandfathers were forced(?) to be in the German army, but afterwards settled in Poland without any problems and were accepted by the new government and were as far as I know just ordinary soldiers. (I also have family that were shot by both the Russians and the Germans during the war). So it's a big mixup of people and names across the borders, but I guess that's how it was back in those days.

Anyways, I feel more Polish than German, but I know because of this "mixed" background, I could probably apply for German citizenship, which would make it a bit easier for me if I choose to settle in Görlitz.

Is it possible to hold two passports now a days?

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

1 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

I know my post could easily be looked upon this way, but BB, be sure my intentions are honest!

If you buy a flat/house in Görlitz, you first pay tax on the property, then electricity, water and everything else that comes with it. Then you also pay tax to the local government from your income, you need insurances on everything and this will all be paid to the German side. And probably 8 out 10 times you will buy your bread locally. But then once a week or so, you go to the Auchon in Zgorzelec and fill up on polish kielbasa, pierogis and beer to stock up the fridge. Maybe even see the dentist and save a hundred Euros. If the work the dentist did sucks, he will not see you again! Again, competition is great, and the consumer is the winner! I don't see this as a big problem to either side. In the Norwegian/Swedish border saga, the car-repair shops have begun to pop up on the Swedish border too...getting your car serviced for half the price, while you are inside shopping for half the price, is somewhat an incentive for the ordinary man with an ordinary salary. (Gee, I wonder why).

Right now Görlitz only has about half the population it once had, which is very sad, when you think about all the beautiful architecture, the history and the possibilites a town like this can have. For people like me, who dream of a new future, a city like this can be the answer. I can buy a property that I would not have a chance to buy elsewehere, and hopefully experience a beautiful and exciting part of Europe, having safety from the German social system (While of course paying for it through taxes), but also being close to and able to experience Poland every day if I choose to. Hopefully, Zgorzelec will pick itself up and start to upgrade it's buildings and parks and become a duplicate side to Görlitz, visually.

My comments about living in one place and doing everything at the other place, was more a way of saying you "can do it", you have the freedom to do it. A trip over the river to get a special product or visit family is not the same as investing ones whole wallet on the other side of the river, leaving the other side behind to fund it. That goes for whatever side one chooses to settle.

Competetion is great and capitalism is even greater. If your competitor does something good, you have to outsmart him. Both the Polish and the German sides have to accept this, and the fact that Görlitz now offers free vacations and stays for Polish youths to attract them over the river is a testament to exactly that! Now ball is in Zgorzelec' half...

I fully agree that if someone solely took financial advantage of the situation and milked both systems for personal gain, that would be unethical, and I have no such aspiration. Although I was born in Poland, feel quite Polish, and even have a Polish name, I (secretly) admire Germany and what she represents on all aspects of life. As most people here know, I am a bit of a European patriot, and when you look at what Germany (minus the wars of course) have achieved, built, invented and what they stand for in regards to work ethic and quality, I have no other choice but to bow down in humbleness. Poland, not to be forgotten in this respect has her own achievements and glorious history. The pride one can find in Poland is a rarity in Europe, and the fact the country still exists if one reads her history, is a testament to how great she is.

Now if there is a possiblity for me and my family to experience both, or as I said, to get the best of two worlds, I'm going to grab it! (Cue Queen song "I want it all").

Dariusz

Hopes BB accepts my offering of coming down in my Viking ship filled with loot...eh I mean quality tapestry.

DariuszTelka

1 Sep 2010

Travel / Hospitality, Scenery, Food, Clean Streets: My POSITIVE experiences in Poland (!) [39]

Polish beer sucks

You have obviously NEVER tasted Norwegian beer. Polish beer is like liquid gold...and I'm constantly reminded of this as I run out of it and have to drink Norwegian beer until the next batch comes from xxxx-back trunk after a trip home.

And I'm still in awe after the 3D movie experience at the Tyskie factory in Tychy a couple of years ago...

Are you serious? Polish beer is exceeeeeeellent!!!!!

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

1 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

Oh no, my masterplan already has holes in it....:-( Who asked for you opinon anyway?? J/k..

I did read that Görlitz have a massive 22% unemployment rate, and that child poverty is among the hightest in the country there. These are ofcourse red flags! But at the same time I see this as an opportunity to invest in property, as Görlitz will not remain like this forever, and if one finds oneself a niche or something one can do that is still attractive, one can survive. I have yet to look into the other cities mentioned above, and only know that they share the same fate in being border cities. But since my wife has family in Zgorzelec/Wroclaw and would like to be near them for obvious reasons, that's what I'm looking at right now. But if the Germans, as you say, are even looking for work in Poland in that area, that is some serious s*it... :-o

btw. great topic and first of its kind here, iirc.

Yes, all these things have to be adressed. I would think living in Görlitz, and paying for German health services, while having Zgorzelec across the river for "pleasure", as family lives there and I can get my Polish foods and keep on practicing my language skills, would be the "sanest" thing to do. But right now, I'm not to educated on the state of things there, so I will keep on reading and take a trip there next year to see and hear for myself.

My wife was born in Zgorzelec, but moved to the U.S when she was ten. (34 now). But she has kept her language, and visits her family there every year, so she knows a little about how things are. Of course living in Norway for 5 years has given her a new outlook on life, as she get's things even the U.S. couldn't give her, like 1 whole year at home fully paid after childbirth, free healthcare etc. But since she is fluent in Polish, English, French, Norwegian and knows basic German, we were hoping she could either find a job in a private language school or do some private teaching. On either side of the river.

But I would think the German health care and social security system is step up the ladder from the Polish one, even on the eastern-most part of the old DDR. So from a personal safety view, having a family and living on the German side, partaking in the Polish side more as a permanent tourist would maybe be the solution. But right now I'm talkin out of my a**, since all my information has come from the internet...

Here in Upper Silesia, football fans almost kill one another. In the interests of international relations, I don't think it would happen in border regions.

About the football hooligans, I'm too old for that, hehe, besides if confronted, "AI KÅM FRÅM NÅRWEI", I just need a bench and a cold beer..

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

1 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

Oh no, I don't want to roll any dice... :-@ I'm too scared to loose...hehe.

I know, having one foot in each camp, could be more strenuous than rewarding, but as the borders are now only on the maps, and cities and governments seem interested in inter-city activities between their inhabitants, as with Görlitz-Zgorzelec, I got this really good "European" feeling over me. If it's possible to somehow manage a life like that, well, that's what I was hoping to have some input on from people actually living there or knowing something about it. There are a couple of things that work against it, like language, the German and Polish languages are miles apart, and the fact that Germans are a bit richer than their neighbours, but I'm hoping the positives would outweigh the negatives. Like possibilities for more employment, student exchanges, financial possibilites with increased trade, co-working on big projects like the tram-line etc.

It's just the fact that it used to be ONE city, so working/shopping/living across the river should not be to much of a stressfull ordeal if one knew both languages (Which I do, to a lesser extent), seing both are in the EU, which opens many doors in the official offices that used to be burdened with tons of paperwork for the smallest thing, and the financial incentive that both cities want from exploiting (In a good way) their common populus' and the financial gain that can come from such a partnership.

Now if the Polish and the Germans that live there see it such a positive way, is another matter...

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

1 Sep 2010

Life / Best of two worlds - Poland and... Germany [29]

I'v been thinking about relocating to Poland for quite some time now, which I have mentioned in a couple of posts earlier. And in the beginning you kind of have a "rosy" look of Poland, you know, from your childhood, spending countless evenings playing with friends, coming home for dinner, before heading out again. No real problems, no worries as childhoods usually go. But of course, one day you grow up, and have to seperate the two, and realize that visiting Poland as a child, and actually living and working there would be two different things.

Moving from Norway, a country with a well established welfare system, a good and clean health system, low crime (compared to other countries) and being just a nice and clean place to be in and exchanging that safety and known world with Poland, who is an "Up-and-comer" on many areas of life, could pose many challenges. I know the economy is up, the roads are buing built, city centres refurbished (I saw Bialystok this year, and loved the way they fixed up their city centre), people are getting a higher life standard and things are generally improving om most areas.

There are many threads on this forum to read on about those topics and challenges about people who either moved from Poland and then back again, or people who came from other countries and started a whole new life in Poland. My love for Poland, and being able to "start over" in a country which is yet to be multi-cultural in the "negative sense", is something I really want. (There are of course many positive sides to cultures coming together, but the european way of importing millions of 3rd worlders have not worked that well, unfortunately). So after 30 years of living outside of my birth country and "armed" with my Polish wife, who was raised in the U.S, we plan to go back. Somehow, somewhere.

As one does one's research about the how's and why's, one just get's swamped with all the information, the stories, the facts. The rose-tinted window that your original thought seemed to be, has been smashed by reality and challenges you didn't think about at first. Some of these are what kind of jobs that are available, and what they pay. What is the safest city? Where are the best schools located? The list is long. Again, many a thread here on PF discusses these topics too! What about clean air and peace of mind? I scroll through hundreds of sites and blogs about Poland, look at dozens of real-estate sites, correspond WITH real-estate agents about prices and value of houses and properties. And then sit on PF too much and get sucked into whatever is todays topic...too many times a bit too anti-Polish for me, but at least I'm not going to be let down when the day comes to leave, after reading one hundred "Why Poland sucks"-posts, things SURELY WILL be better than what I've read by posters who troll these forums, you know who you are.

But recently I got hit with a thought, Poland borders to 7 countries, Germany, The Czech Republik, Slovakia, The Ukraine, Bielorussia, Lithuania and Russia. As one is looking for the highest quality of life, in whatever aspect one feels is important, the Polish border with Germany has caught my eye. I rememeber when I visited Zgorzelec, the birthplace of my wife, and we walked around there in the summertime. A typical, nice, but not too well kept city on the border with it's former half - Görlitz. We walked over the bridge, and lo and behold, the other side was extremely nice looking! The parks were kept, the streets were clean, the shops had nice signs, the trams were modern and the town squares were taken straight out from a postcard. Looking back over the bridge back to Zgorzelec and seeing the still grey buildings, the overgrown grass by the roadsides was a bit sad. That was my family's side and I loved it, but I'm not blind either. There would still be a long time before the Polish side caught up with the German side of the river. What would be the excuse for Zgorzelec not to paint and fix up their buildings, while Görlitz, which lost half their population in the last 20 years, and lies out of everyones way, even by east-German standards, looked like any other German city? Anyways, I'm ranting. Back to the point.

How would it be, if one bought a flat/house in Görlitz, which is realtively cheap by German standards, and in abundance because of the population-flight, but had one's life on the Polish side? Going to the dentist, shopping, visiting family, going to restaurants and speaking Polish. But at the same time living in Germany and having the safety of a controlled bureaucracy, better health care and maybe other things that "work" better in Germany than in present day Poland.

One could also put it the other way. Buying a property in Zgorzelec (or any of the other cities on the border with Germany like, Kostrzyn nad Odra, Slubice, Janiszowice etc.), and working in Germany, receiving German pay, but using it in Poland, as German Euros will go further than Zloty at the Biedronka. These are now real possibilites for thousands for people on either side of that border, but I have yet to read a thread about it here on PF.

Here in Oslo, Norway, we are only 1 hour + away from the Swedish border, and man can I tell you there are some serious traffic over the bridge to the shopping malls on the Swedish side on Saturdays and Sundays! It's called "Harry-handel"(!), you know, the people who live in a van down by the river-people, but in reality are every-day "Joe and Suzy", who go there to stock up on food and other items that are cheaper than in Norway. One can easily save hundreds of Euros on one such shopping trip, and it's a billion euro business which is expanding every year. To the grievance of Norwegian politicians, who don't understand why people don't want to pay 1.50 Euro for a litre of milk or 10 Euros for a small package of meatloaf, in a Norwegian shopping mall, when you can get everything for half price in Sweden. But again, I digress...

Now, my question is if anyone here have any experiences of this kind of living, or any thoughts about this kind of life, on the bordertowns of Poland and Germany, or the other countries that Poland borders to. If one was dropped in Zgorzelec with no information about towns or borders, there would be hard to tell that the bridge represents a border, and that Görlitz and Zgorzelec used to be seperated by barbed wires and guards with machine guns. The only thing that could give it away is maybe the lack of colour on the Polish buildings and the slightly longer grass in the park compared to the German side...The city of Görlitz even openly invites Polish youths to come and stay for free in nicely-furnished apartements, hoping that they will stay permanently and contribute to their city. Which according to some newspaper articles, some have chosen to do.

presseurop.eu/en/content/article/3591-glourious-goerlitz

There was the Zgorzelec-Gorlitz bid for the 2010 European city of culture competition, that was only beaten by Essen. And the new project now is called "Culture 2020" i believe, which is supposed to bring the cities closer together, even going as far as having a tram-line across the bridge taking germans and poles back and forth across the border for shopping, work or anything else.

As I see it, this is a very exciting proposition, living in either, but getting "the best of both worlds", depending on how one looks at it. I could have Polish language, Polish food, Poland itself, but I could also have German efficiency and a proper way of conduct in government, a "brighter" and more western place to live, as not to shock myself too much when leaving Norway. (It must be admitted that I am eligable for both Polish and German citizenship, and will by that have the entitlements that follows with them).

Moving to the Bielorussian border on the other hand will make Poland the "richer" side, and whatever city it shares with on the other side the "affordable" side...and since I do not qualify for Bielorussian citizenship, I will stick with the german side. But if anyone has some thoughts about or experience with this, it would be very interesting to read.

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

31 Jul 2010

News / POLAND LEAVING WHAT COUNTRY FOR A BETTER LIFE?? [73]

I dont know why people are always saying its a stuggle in Poland, it isnt. Rent is cheap, food is cheap and you will be able to get something

I have a cousin in Germany, he's been there for some 20 years, since his mom took him there after his father died back in Poland in the 90's. (They had more family in Germany). He's been talking about moving back his whole life, maybe as a "dream" or just to have something to think about. But the other day I talked to him on the phone and he said he was giving up Poland and staying in Germany. Mostly becasue of the kids in school and that he just "outgrew" Poland after so many years, but he also claimed that Poland was getting too expensive! Now, I don't live in Poland or Germany, so I can't compare. But he says only a few things in the shops are cheaper, like sausages, bread and milk, but the rest was cheaper in Germany...his wife mentioned a piece of garlic for 7 zl, when they went there this summer (maybe an import?), which she really was upset about. And I remember he mentioned that electronics were also more expensive in Poland than in Germany. Now, if they earn less, but things are more expensive...I don't see that working out for a normal Polish family..

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

24 Jul 2010

Travel / Poland-My 9-day experience [239]

The so called Old town is so small and insignificant that you can walk through in 5-10 minutes. The rest is just a dump. Most houses and buildings there deserves to be condemend and bulldozed.

Do you seriously mean what you write here, or are you just in a state of hate and bitterness? As other posters in here mentioned, your level of debate is of an high-school student. I even think you have to search a bit to find one THAT unhappy and tormented.

This is not a my country/your country debate, AussieSheila, I would LOVE to go to Australia. I know for a fact the people are friendly, the food will be great and the sights will be awesome. IF I GO THERE WITH THAT ATTITUDE. If I go there with your attitude, then the people will be miserable, the food will stink and everything will be too close to the water. I'll get bored after the first day!

This HAS to be your first country outside of Australia, and the cute guy at the restaurant just left you, after breaking your heart. And then you decided to log on here and use your valuable time at the POLISHFORUMS.COM, to tell everyone that your vacation SUCKED!

We can't help you. You will encounter this everywhere you go. In every European country you visit, you will find crappy parts of town, run down houses, small old towns and girls who look like hookers. I'm really awaiting your report from countries like England or France! They should be really fun.(Please come back here and post a link to them from other debateforums after your visits).

You actually went to Chorzow, but did not go to Crakow??? Who the hell was your guide???? It's like saying, hey let's go to Australia! Where do you want to go? Sydney or Melbourne? No, let's go to Adelaide!! (More crime, dirty, nothing happening etc).

Is this your sister posting here?;

"Reasons why Sydney is the worst city in Australia"....

au.messages.yahoo/news/localnews-nsw/272/

What about this poster a bit down on the above site;

"Yo dude, so your out of there. Now we have to ask where are you going to go? Melbourne - a cold wet Sydney wannabe but with better cultural icons?

Adelaide - the people aren't so rude but they speak funny and the water is pretty bad.
Perth - a hot sandy Sydney wannabe, but the public transport is great. Darwin - its got its charms and the people are friendly, but from the sound of it your a bit xenophobic, so perhaps its very multicultural nature will challenge your limited outlook. Brisbane - you might fit in in Ipswich but the place is full of Victorians and Mexicans from below the border so they might be rude. Canberra - its safe and souless and the infrastructure's great and the housing's affordable, but its only 3 hours to Sydney so perhaps you won't be safe from the gangs! Maybe Hobart, not many jobs but its pretty white and insulated? Then again perhaps you'd be better off in the country? Wherever you do go though, you need to learn to accept diversity and if you do want to change things get involved in the community you belong to".

See, it's not all peaches and cream in your backyard either, so maybe you should just say, "I'll open my eyes and my heart and accept whatever I find in the world, and I will not go on forums and post bullc*ap about other peoples home country!".

Anyways, bless you AussieSheila, I hope you will go back to Poland and VISIT CRAKOW!!! Especially in the summer with festivals, carnivals and concerts. Who knows, maybe you'll have a good time and meet another cute boy! Then go to any of the 13 places in Poland on the Unesco world heritage list, like the historic centres of Warsaw, the old town of Zamosc and the salt mines of Wieliczka to mention a few. Even outside of that list, you will find medieval towns with amazing history and architecture, over 500+ castles spread all over the country (You can even spend the night in many of them!), the snow covered mountains of Zakopane with amazing folk music and dance all year around, all this in the space of a medium sized European country! Hey, why am I even writing all this down for you...you can do this yourself! Just please stop pissing in our well.

And if you are serious about experiencing a nice country again, then please check out this link: staypoland.com/poland-attractions.htm

Again, Chorzow...really??

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

24 Jul 2010

Travel / Poland-My 9-day experience [239]

I noticed some people are riled up, i have no intention of offending anyone.

What if a person went on an Australian website, and read this before going there for a two-week journey;

"The advertisements feature Australians preparing for visitors to their country. It begins in an Outback pub with the barkeeper saying, "We've poured you a beer." Further imagery to a similar effect is then shown, including a young boy on the beach saying, "We've got the sharks out of the pool," and partygoers watching Sydney harbour fireworks saying, "We've turned on the lights". The commercial ends with bikini-clad model Lara Bingle at Fingal Spit stepping out of the ocean and asking, "So where the bloody hell are you?"

The campaign received massive press coverage, but it was soon deemed a failure and withdrawn".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_where_the_bloody_hell_are_you

"'We are much more than a nation of great people and great places,'' Mr Crean will say at today's launch.

''We have won 10 Nobel Prizes and we are a nation bursting with creativity and ingenuity. The Australian way is to underplay our achievements but this kind of modesty only surrenders the edge to our competitors.''

Oh really, what about "Aussie Sheila" then...if she is "modest", then I don't dare to think about a real Aussie talking...

By the way, Poland has 23 nobel prize winners...(Not that it's a competition...).

pl-nobel.prv.pl

So, what does Australia have to offer, besides having to take a plane to visit any other country, or even any city! 90% of the landmass is unsuitable for living (you can only see so many beaches before longing for something else), poisonous creatures of all sizes and effects..including very deadly, shark infested waters, lebanese gangs that gangrape women and beat up everyone they feel like, including at beaches, restaurants and public streets (youtube it), an appaling treatment on the Aboriginees, skippy the bush cangaroo, crocodile dundee and a dead Steve Irwin (God bless his soul). Nobody bloody(!) cares about Australian rules football, cricket or whatever you play down there. The boomerang? Who the hell came up with that idea? And 100 feet long trucks that treck your desert highways....yeah, compare that to Poland, with it's 1000 year old history, castles, dynasties, old town squares, lakes, the possibility of visiting half a dozen countries with your car within a days drive, including cities like Berlin, Prague, Lviv, Budapest. How about skiing, sunbathing at beautiful beaches that stretch for miles and miles, filled with nightlife and modern hotels, snorkling, canoing in any of the thousands of lakes, visting vast protected wild life parks with fantastic fauna and animal life, nightclubbing, concerts, prime cuisine, all connected by modern highways, with cities with millions of people...how far do you come in Australia in the same time? How many different places, sites, cultures, food and people do you encounter there on a daytrip? What's your thing, besides the Opera and the bridge in the harbour, that occupies 90% of all your postcards?

"Aussie Sheila", shows a typical version of the "western" style of demanding things. My wife, born in Poland, but grew up in the U.S, has the same "problem". Everything has to be "immidiate", wether it's food or shopping. If the tower is not the highest, it's not worth seeing, if the street is not the longest, it's not worth walking. And if something takes more than 10 minutes, the restless leg syndrome kicks in...it has taken her 5 years here in a remote city in Norway to "calm down", and accept that beauty is found everwhere, and is not always like portrayed on TV or in magazines with enhanced colours or music for effect. I suspect "Aussie Sheila", is smitten by this and it has blurred her vision a bit. She needs more than a week or two to really understand a place, its beauty and how things should be seen.

This is NOT an attack on Australia, which I KNOW is a beautiful place, or "Aussie Sheila". But you can find faults in every country, like a poster mentioned earlier, it's how you perceive it that is important. For "Aussie Sheila", to actually log on this site, take the 20 minutes it took her to write the, mostly, negative aspects of her journey, shows that she is not the most tolerant, open-minded or positive person that should be visiting another country.

Dariusz

Who can tell similar "bad" experiences from visiting France (Top of Eiffel Tower is SO overrated), England, (The asphalt jungles they call cities gave me psychological trauma), Germany, (talk about dull landscape while driving), Spain, (Someone ban the mopeds...pleeeease).

DariuszTelka

20 Jul 2010

UK, Ireland / Con Air UK: Flights take Polish criminals home - the cost to you is £25million [30]

I think this is a fantastic thing. Why should GB pay for other countries criminals? Back to Poland, and share a cell with 4 others! I have no respect or mercy for people who have been given the opportunity to work and improve their lives in other countries, just to break the law there. Now, let's hope the same will apply for all the other countries in Europe, and include non-european criminals returning to their countries as well. We will soon be be closing prisons and laying off police officers here in Europe.

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

20 Jul 2010

Life / As EuroPride visits Warsaw - is it the start of overdue social change in Poland? (homosexuality promotion) [144]

you are 1 paranoid hombre.. the thing is that people are fighting to be accepted.. you don't see that? hmm

Maybe, but do you think that what I wrote was that out of touch with reality?

Why "fight"? Why is it so important to stand out and be "special", to expect preferrential treatment? Why not keep you sex-life to yourself and get on with the rest of us? The black/gay/whatever minority population have been so whipped into a frenzy that they believe everyone is against them. And the left side have to be the ones to blame for this. They see ghosts everywhere. In Norway they are unfortunately a big force and have the media's ear and the governments money. "Fight for you right!", their posters claim. Who are they gonna fight? I don't give a f if your bi-gay-like pink bubbles. Just don't stuff it in my face.

If you are gay, and go into a business meeting, nobody will will know, unless you openly show it to them. Nobody at my work knows anything about my sexual preferences, why would they care in the first place? I could love to put on a hat and army boots to be happy...so what, I don't walk around with it, showing off. Gays can be gay when they are with their partner. To paint it on your forehead is no solution. I know, I speak from experience. I used to be a skinhead. After a couple of years among those people, "everyone" was out to get us, we were being followed, stalked, refused entry at pubs and bars, our schools fought us, we were kicked out of our jobs and many other things. We felt "outside" and that we had to "fight" to be ourselves. Of course, it was all just in our heads. I can perfectly function, have my opinons and live a normal life without being a skinhead. So, if gays just "tone" it down a notch, stop wearing womens clothes and makeup publicly...hey, nobody will care and they can be "normal". If I shaved my head, put on my flight-jacket and boots...just to "be who I am"...well, then that comes with a price. It's called living in a society. Gays need to know where and when to tell people what they are. Being gay doesn't need to be "an upward battle", if you choose for it not to be. And if you HAVE to be VISIBLY gay, then move to a predominantly gay area...

yup, that is all paranoia.. figment of your imagination

Again..do you think all/many/some of these things would exist in Europe without a 100 000 000 non-european immigrants amongst us? None of the examples I listed would exist, so there would be none of them..I know, it's a radical thought.

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

19 Jul 2010

Life / As EuroPride visits Warsaw - is it the start of overdue social change in Poland? (homosexuality promotion) [144]

Men seem to be more feminized, and our culture suffers for it.
At any rate, chemicals in our environment seem to disproportionately affect men.

And to help with that, we have the leftist, marxist, socialist, communist movements that really took off in the late 60's. They deliberately have terrorized our children from a young age. They filled up all the positions in education, media and community organizing. From the leftist kindergarden workers, to schoolteachers and journalists. All the propaganda they are feeding in liberal, leftist schoolbooks, where the dad is at home with his aprin vacuuming, while the mother is out working as a plumber, nicely displayed in colourful cartoons alongside pictures of poor african slaves and evil white people in history. All this to condition the children to accept the new way of thinking. Our children are programmed to resist their parents, their home, their society and "rebel". "Question your parents!", "You have rights too!". This conditioning is beaten in to the young and impressionable minds, until they reach university where it all comes out to fruition. Free sex, drugs, student activities that are completely opposite to what their parents supported and fought for, are promoted openly. "It's normal", they say. It's the next generation...

Germany has always been in the forefront on all the "revolutionary" movements. Just look at the violent and communist RAF, the sex-industry, mass immigration, gay and lesbian rights, the EU, the German left side was always first in line to whatever opposed the "normal" European traditional family values or anything worth keeping. (The nazis excluded). This rubbed off on the rest of the world, and the 68-generations all around, started burning their bra's, holding up pictures of massmurderers like Mao and Stalin in communist marches, saying that up is down, left is right and that we should set the world on fire. Their brethren in Europe and the U.S, followed them blindly. The people on the barricades back then, like the previous foreign minister in Germany, Joschka Fischer, attacked police when he was young, wearing a motorcycle helmet. Nonetheless he was elected into parliament, and today he lectures around the world at prestigious universities!

From Wikipedia;

"In 1967 he became active in the German student movement and left-wing movement". "He studied the works of Marx, Mao and Hegel and became a member of the militant group Revolutionärer Kampf (Revolutionary Struggle). Fischer was a leader in several street battles fought by the radical Putzgruppe (literally "cleaning squad", with the first syllable being interpreted as an acronym for Proletarische Union für Terror und Zerstörung, "Proletarian Union for Terror and Destruction") which physically attacked a number of police officers. Photos of one such battle in March 1973, which were later to haunt him, show him clubbing policeman Rainer Marx".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joschka_Fischer#Early_life

And today they have what they wanted back then. A world in on the brink of total economic collapse, religious wars, massive immigration, uncontrollable druguse, sex is ok either which way, wherever, with whomever or even with children....check out this link from "Der Spiegel";

"Germany's left has its own tales of abuse. One of the goals of the German 1968 movement was the sexual liberation of children. For some, this meant overcoming all sexual inhibitions, creating a climate in which even pedophilia was considered progressive".

spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,702679,00.html

And Poland and eastern-Europe are now ripe for the picking. They have included them into the EU, given them the taste of money, financing leaders who follow the EU line and who will in the end make Europe into an "American state-system", of states within one government rule. Making the homosexuals victims and putting them on the barricades is just one of these "steps", that need to be taken to defragmentize the population, take away the general populus' feeling of "belonging" in a homogenous state, where things are safe and natural. After some years, people start loosing their identity to their country and their people, and start looking at the piece of land they occupy as "just another place", just like all the others. "We're all one world".

They call it baby-steps. First it's immigration, then it's "free" sex and homosexuality, then it's the currency, then the borders...then one day people will wake up and find out that there is a new world out there. They put up "minorities" against eachother and stirr in the calm waters...what comes up is what we see today, as people are fighting eachother instead of accepting eachother. Whites are evil, blacks are victims of racism, jews are victims of anti-semitism, gays are oppressed, on and on it goes..find a victim, point out the scapegoat and start protests...put people against eachother...fuel hate...start "Anti-defamation League" and "Anti-racist"-organizations to fight imaginary enemies. "Don't you know you're oppressed?". "Fight back!". Gay parades are just a cog in the wheel of the sh*t-stirrers, and they should stop this anti-social behaviour.

Off topic for a small minute...(But it all ties together)

Just think about this for 2 minutes. Without the massive immigration to Europe that the left side has implemented in the last half-decade, there would be no hatelaws, no skinheads, no neo-nazis or white supremacists, no terror-attacks by muslims like the Madrid or London bombings, no arrests of people who WANTED to commit terrorist actions like the Madrid and London bombings, no hijab/burkha debates, no problems with religious intolerance - on both sides -, no stories about abductions, honour-killings, no race-riots that span over weeks destroying property for billions of Euro's, no police cars burning, no busses burning or ambulances being attacked by hundreds of people and needing police escorts just to save lives, no attacks on homosexuals by specifically ethnic groups, no attacks and murdes on Europeans who live in multicultual areas, no race-mixing which produces a new generation of confused and angry humans, with no real identity, no overcrowded prisons, no drug wars or underground prostitution rings, no welfare scams on the scale we see today, no funding of terrorist organizations in 3rd world countries from Europe, no ghettoes across Europe, no issues with people dying on the beaches of Spain and Italy coming in overcrowede boats, no AIDS/HIV epidemy, no bird-flu epidemy, no gangrapes of European women, no sharia police in out streets, no "rising" anti-semitism, no overstreched hospitals, schools or welfare systems, no funding for hundreds, if not thousands of humanitary organizations that make a living out of all these things - paid with our tax-money, no housing crisis, no overdose epidemics among youths that we read of every year, no problems with unofficial taxi's, no ethnic streetgangs shooting and killing eachother and innocent bystanders, no illegal restaurants selling rotten food or nightclubs that sell illegal liquir and drugs. This list can be made ten times longer, but I'll stop with what I've mentioned above. What would our media write about? What would this forum look like?

Back on topic...

Homosexuals are part of our human biology, they are born that way, and can like some posters here mentioned be "made" that way by food-products, chemicals and other forces like stress, anxiety, hormonal imbalance by their parents, especially the mother. They have now found the complex genes that decide the birthing of a heterosexual or homosexual child, and found out that both the father and mothers genes can contribute to this selection if one become on or the other. Just like twins and other "anomalies", they have multi-faceted possibilties to become like this. Why propagate this anomaly as something "oppressed"? Just be gay and live normally. Why stand on the rooftop and shout it out? Why produce specialized organizations, magazines, tv-shows, shops and have parades and all the other things that make them STAND OUT, instead of BLEND IN? Yes, you are kinda rare, congratulations, we all are, now move on...

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

17 Jul 2010

Life / As EuroPride visits Warsaw - is it the start of overdue social change in Poland? (homosexuality promotion) [144]

Dariusz, I do actually like you, in a strange way, but you're here on a Friday too...what does say about you? You're married..Sorry but generally Friday is a night single hard working (usually more hours than our married couterparts do) stay in and have a glass of wine, generally you wont see people like Harry on here on Saturday!

I'm here, on a friday night, since I'm married, yes...and since my wife is giving birth in a week's time. And unfortunately, you are right, I didn't use to go out on friday's after I hit 30 either. Too tired. I was never into wine, though, but a couple of cans of beer, and light's out. Anyways, my point was, instead of writing 4000 messages in here, a person who I mostly see writing one-two-liners, mostly see bashing people, calling them all sorts of things, and too often bashing Poland/polish history/polish people...well, I just made an observation.

As for gay people who adopt..Well I know two gay guys who offer respite service to parents...

Hey, I've met "cool" gay people too. Not too many, but a few. The whole adoption thing, I mean, if they can't get a kid the "natural" way, they shouldn't have it. I mean, just the thought of a kid growing up with two dad's or two mom's, it just doesn't work for me. This does not apply to couples who are infertile. It's just my view. Sorry if it offends anyone...

Statistics are only valuable if they include the entire population. Else they will only be a snapshot of a current feeling in a group, not really usable therefore.

That excludes about 98% of all statistics that are made then? How are the polling companies going to survive if this is the standard? How much will it cost if you have to interview ALL the people every time you make a statistic? The consequenses of such an rigid standard will almost kill off all statistics. You seem a bit harsh, MareGaea.

So would you or wouldn't you?

It depends.

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

16 Jul 2010

Life / As EuroPride visits Warsaw - is it the start of overdue social change in Poland? (homosexuality promotion) [144]

What are your views on Adolf Hitler??

Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but if I could, he would never have gotten out of his beerstube in Munich alive. The same goes for Stalin. Good enough? The nazi empire made way for the liberal left to completely destroy the european world and way of living. Communism and slavery for half a century in the east, excess immigration and the debauchery we have today in the west. The new world order couldn't have written it better. Myself, I'm in favour of lesser government, more individual freedom. Socialism needs to be killed off, along with the most greedy version of capitalism.

You wouldn't put your kid in a Toyota?

Not if the statistics show that they are potentially a death threat, no. Did you check the link?

Damn right I wouldn't: if I ever reached the state in which I thought that the fruit of your loins was attractive, I'd kill myself.

Can't stop the personal insults, can we Harry. That's ok, I'll have to get used to I guess.

Although I am very much looking forward to the day that your son comes home and says "Dad, this is Mohammed. We're in love and getting married."

At least I'm married, and have the possibility to have a son. Instead of posting well over 4000 posts in here you should be out there, Harry, making friends, finding someone, instead of spending a friday evening alone by your computer trying to come up with funny insults.

But just to go along with your "amusing" thought, if he would do that, he would find himself out of the will...nothing more drastic than that..what if your son (If you manage to get out and actually find a girl and somehow magically impregnate her), came home with a nazi-skinhead-homophobic girl and said; we're getting married at the Berechtesgarten! And we want the priest to read from Mein Kampf, wearing an Hermann Goering replica uniform during the ceremony, while you shout anti-semitic obscenities at the guests. About the same level of probability, but nonetheless, what would you do, Harry?

Dariusz

DariuszTelka

16 Jul 2010

Life / As EuroPride visits Warsaw - is it the start of overdue social change in Poland? (homosexuality promotion) [144]

Yes, but one can still argue that homosexuals are overrepresented in paedophelia in contrast to the straight population by numbers. It's called statistics. Where would we be without these "fun" facts? What would sports be without it?

"Individuals attracted to males usually prefer slightly older boys between the ages of 10 and 13 years.3,5 Heterosexual pedophiles, in self-report studies, have on average abused 5.2 children and committed an average of 34 sexual acts vs homosexual pedophiles who have on average abused 10.7 children and committed an average of 52 acts.15 Bisexual offenders have on average abused 27.3 children and committed more than 120 acts."

So the point is, if you KNOW that someone is homosexual, you KNOW that he has a greater chance of molesting a child than a heterosexual man. Even though there are clearly more heterosexual men out there, 35% of all paedophiles are homosexual. These numbers just don't go away.

mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/82/4/457.full

"Most cars aren't potential death traps on the highway", "Yes, but would you buy a toyota nontheless?".

msnbc.msn.com/id/33077383/

Just like the Toyota cars that can become your last ride. It might happen, it might not. Do you want to take the chance? Are you gonna say; "Yes, but overall, most Toyota's don't have these faults". Are you gonna put your kid in one and take the chance? Unfortunately, you can't put paedophiles in for a tuneup, one can only lock them away.

How high or how low of a chance of something does it have to be, before it should be public knowledge and something people should be aware of? I don't personally care if you are homo or straight, if you touch my kid, you will probably not survive it. I don't hate homosexuals, I just know the statistics and facts.

Dariusz