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Posts by sjam  

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 3 Dec 2009
Threads: Total: 2 / Live: 0 / Archived: 2
Posts: Total: 541 / Live: 146 / Archived: 395

Interests: Publisher

Displayed posts: 146 / page 2 of 5
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sjam   
14 Nov 2009
History / Maria Wittekówna and other Polish Women in The AK [25]

Look at Maria Sobocinska who would have thought

I had the great pleasure of meeting the diminutive 'Marylka' Sobocinska in Warsaw a year ago and am in the process of having her memoirs translated into English. This book should be on sale in autumn 2010 :-))

Maybe you should add Zofia Kossak-Szczucka to your list.

Despite holding openly antisemitic views she wrote "Protest," a leaflet in support of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto:

The world, Kossak-Szczucka wrote, was silent in the face of this atrocity. "England is silent, so is America, even the influential international Jewry, so sensitive in its reaction to any transgression against its people, is silent. Poland is silent...

Zofia Kossak-Szczucka went on to co-founded Provisional Committee to Aid Jews which became Zegota with Irena Sendler.

Zofia Kossak was a well known author of historical fiction before the war and one her later books Angels in the dust a novel of the First Crusade is definitely worth finding a copy of and reading it was published by Roy Publishers of New York , 1947.
sjam   
13 Nov 2009
History / Maria Wittekówna and other Polish Women in The AK [25]

Maria 'Marylka' Sobocinska one of very few women awarded Virtuti Militari. Born in 1920 and still actively involved with womens veteran affairs .

'Marylka' organised the Women's Military Service and served as a courier and was involved in many other underground activities. After the war she was arrested by the Polish communist security service and was sentenced to six years for her activities in the A.K. but was released in November 1948.
sjam   
13 Nov 2009
History / Maria Wittekówna and other Polish Women in The AK [25]

Have you read :

Silent Is The Vistula by by Irena Orska
Published in 1946, Longmans, Green

This is a truly great book of the courage of Polish women during the Rising, 1944.
sjam   
20 Oct 2009
History / Polish military in 1939 in pictures. [106]

Sokrates, has insulted

What by a Polish Nazi-fascist ? Not me. He is more of insulting to his country and the millions of Poles who were victims of his fascist heroes and is by being a Polish fascist more anti-Polish than even me ;-))

Sokrates: Still waiting for your link to where I declared Poles ran concentration camps in Poland during WWII?

Again here is your opportunity to prove me the liar - show me the link?
sjam   
20 Oct 2009
History / Polish military in 1939 in pictures. [106]

The link i showed you

Still waiting for your link to where I declared Poles ran concentration camps in Poland during WWII? Are you still having trouble finding such a statement from me, could it be that you know it doesn't exist?

And you say i am the liar—here is your opportunity to prove it—show me the link?

Your silence on this is deafening but not at all surprising. LOL.
sjam   
17 Oct 2009
History / What Was Happening in Poland around 1905? [73]

Did you know that in fact Germans are the largest ethnic group in the US

I did, a friend of mine is writing a book about the German immigration into USA, in particular the origins of the German farming community in Texas.
sjam   
16 Oct 2009
History / What Was Happening in Poland around 1905? [73]

A LOT of Polish people emmigrated to the U.S. Between 1890 or so and 1905.

Also a large number of Germans emmigrated during this time to Texas. Mainly land-less tenant farmers who responded to adverts posted by Texas offering large tracts of free farm-land to German farmers as they knew them to be industrious and skilled farm workers just the sort that Texas needed to help with nation-building. Maybe other parts of US were encouraging ethnic Poles for similar reasons at the time? Texas still has a thriving German-American population
sjam   
14 Oct 2009
History / Polish military in 1939 in pictures. [106]

Italian war correspondent, Mario Appelius, who witnessed a Polish cavalry charge in Wólka Węglowa on September 19th, 1939, wrote:

'There was a heroic advance of several hundreds of Polish Uhlans who all of a sudden appeared from the bushes. They advanced with their banner. All German machine guns stopped shooting, only artillery was covering the field with shells over a distance of 300 metres in front of the German defence. Poles were attacking like it was in mediaeval pictures with their commander with his sabre raised. The distance between the attacking cavalry and the wall of German shelling was diminishing with every second. It was unthinkable to continue this charge against certain death. But the Poles went through....'

Source:
First to Fight: Poland's Contribution to the Allied Victory in WWII
Publisher: Polish Underground Movement (1939-45) Study Trust, London, England.
1 September 2009
ISBN-13: 978-0955782442
sjam   
30 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

I'm not arguing about numbers at all. Numbers are your obsession, not mine.

Glossing over the numbers shows the weakness of your genocide argument. The numbers you ignore give dimension and context to the crime being considered.

In just one example the facts are clearly demonstrated in the NKVD execution memorandum that were 10 times as many deserters on the execution list than your 'many of them weren't even military personnel but lawyers, land-owners, settlers and priests; who amounted to just 500 people or less than 150 persons from each group. I repeat, there must have been thousands of priests in Eastern Poland at the time yet the Soviets arrested roughly 100 of them. So did they arrest all the Church leadership, the elite...no they arrested only those few priests suspected at the time of belonging to insurgent organisations or what we would call underground resistance organisations engaged in an insurgency war against the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland just as some priests were doing in German occupied Poland. You seem to be implying that there was no underground resistance in Eastern Poland and Poles were happy to leave the Soviets alone but not the Germans? Which is not the case at all.

As I have said before IMO Poland needs Katyń to be genocide and not a war-crime for the reasons I have outline earlier in this thread. I think I have bored everyone enough on this so I am out... over to you!
sjam   
29 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

I don't think that Soviets can use the existence of partisan groups as an excuse to call the murdering of regular army officers, settlers, lawyers, landowners and
priests a "war crime".

The Soviets arrested them all for being members of insurgent organisations and activities against Soviet occupation and control ie. being involved in resistance organsations that why just 500 priests, landowners and lawyers were arrested from all the thousand of priests, landowners, and lawyers there must have been in Eastern Poland that were neither arrested or executed. Unless you arguing that these represented majorative numbers in each group... which is hardly credible.

And if we are led to believe that the Polish military elite were specifically targetted for execution, then the arrest of General Michał Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz in March 1940 (the time of the Katyń execution memorandum) and his subsequent release in 1941 truly puts paid to that hypothesis! Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz was not a guest at the 'Villa of Hapiness' was he, so how do you explain why the Soviets did not murder him also? Many others like Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz (and there were there quite a number) that joined Anders army in USSR included officers like Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz in its ranks that were released under the amnesty and not murdered at sites like Katyń.
sjam   
29 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

General Michał Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz.

Who was released in August 1941 and obviously not considered 'elite' enough to be murdered by NKVD in Torq's genocide!
sjam   
29 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

Besides, it wasn't only military personnel
but also lawyers, priests or land owners for example.

many of them weren't even military personnel but lawyers, land-owners,
settlers and priests. Some POW's!

Just 500 lawyers, priests and landowners out of how many priests, lawyers and landowners that were in Eastern Poland at the time of their arrest?

A group of 500 out of your total of 22,000 Katyn victims not that many by any stretch of credibility. And I doubt if they represented 0.5% of all the Polish priests, landowners and lawyers of Eastern Poland so not a significant number at all. It doesn't diminish the fact a crime was committed but no one can serioulsy claim it was a genocidal crime.

There were 10 times as many deserters on the execution list than your 'many of them weren't even military personnel but lawyers, land-owners, settlers and priests.

There was NO factual state of war between Poland and USSR in April 1940
when the genocide was commited.

Only if you ignore the restistance organisations that were set up in Soviet occupied Poland (as were they of course in German occupied Polish lands). Thus by ignoring the fact that resistance organistations were set-up and that the NKVD memorandum specifically mentions POWs involved in insurgent organisations were to be executed, you arrive at the absurd statement that war did not exist in 1940. The NKVD were fighting against Polish resistance organisations at every twist and turn, and they were much more successful in infiltrating and breaking-up such organisations than the Germans ever were, the NKVD having had many more decades ruthless experience in using executions, torture and deporatations to break resistance to Stalinist control.

Also SS and Wehrmacht units were often supervising the departure and loading of transport trains to death camps.

So did the Jewish Order Police, so I guess they were guilty of Holocaust crimes as well!

I guess Polish locomotive drivers such as Stefan Kirsz* who in his own words was a locomotive co-driver and led the Jewish transports from Rava_Russkaya to Belzec were also guilty of Holocaust crimes.

*Source: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps —page 69.

It was a crime conducted during a war. The label is just different.

Without doubt!

They targeted particular group of people on territory that they planned to absorb, according to their nationality and social status.

How would you compare the social status of the 6,000 deserters on the NKVD memorandum to the group of Polish generals?

In the document there is no particular single group targetted but a number of groups of which the largest majority were Polish military commisioned officers, who came to be held seperately from the tens of thousands of other ranks who were freed shortly after capture. I believe this was also the case in German occupied Poland ie. after the siege of Warsaw ended all Polish military forces were ordered out of Warsaw and after processing in holding camps the other ranks were released and the officers deported to German POW camps.

On the Katyń memorandum they were not even all Polish, 3% were not. So nationality doesn't seem to be a factor, other than most prisoners taken in Poland by the Soviets were naturally Polish.
sjam   
28 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

How many people,
do you think, have to be killed so we can call it genocide?

Let us say more than the 500 Polish lawyers, priests and landowners! Which the NKVD 'Katyń' memorandum cleary shows was less than 10% yes, less than 10% of the number of deserters that the NKVD also requested permission from Stalin to be executed!

BTW. Does your figure of 22,000 include the 6,000 deserters who would make up a fairly large percentage of this 22,000? About 27% would you say?

This is off-topic but you still keep trying your best to compare Katyn to Cambodia. So you still haven't offered a reason as to why Pol Pot’s chief torturer, Kaing Guek Eav, was charged with war crimes rather than genocide? Or Nuon Chea, second in command of the Khmer Rouge was charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity and not charged with genocide by what was refered to as the genocide tribunal? Seems to be a telling point to me. Over to you!
sjam   
28 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

He confronts head on the 'Jewish/Khazar' aspect of the Communist tyranny...This is forbidden for any mainstream journalist

Forbidden only in your delusional anti-semitic world of Jewish world conspiracies and media control! The US has the first amendment that enshrines in law your citizens freedom of speech. If it were not so then the internet would be free of your anti-semitic websites, your debased prnography, your neo-nazis and your supremacist hate sites all hiding and protected behind your first amendment. Forbidden? What utter rubbish! If only it would be!

true statistics for Auschwitz will never be known, because of politics

Yet more joepilsudski gibberish.
The true statistics will never be known because the SS destroyed the majority of the camp documents ahead of the advancing Red Army... nothing to do with Allied or anybody else's politics!
sjam   
28 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

Regular Polish forces were still fighting the Red Army in October 1939.

Any idea when Polish 'irreguars' such AK and NSZ were officially recognised by the Allies as combatant forces?

Kindly explain why the following persons are charged with war crimes

or why they are charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity rather than genocide?
sjam   
28 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

pastors, landowners and lawyers and then executed them
for political reasons

Just 144 such people from one NKVD POW camp and 465 from camps in Western Ukraine and Belorussia help prisoner for being involved in insurectionary organistations... not even because they were priests, landowners or lawyers... not even because they were Polish, although they were, but because they were resisting the Soviet occupation, however we would call them patriots.

Even mentioning the IRA, Hamas, Taliban and ETA in
the context of Katyń and trying to compare them makes as little sense as
most of your previous posts.

I agree totally it makes no sense at all, and so you should now see how nonsensical it is for you to compare the Katyń deaths to the Pol Pot regimes killing of 1.7 million people in Cambodia. Which was my point entirely.

So, what would you call the Pol Pot's crimes in Cambodia?

It is a matter of record: Pol Pot’s chief torturer, Kaing Guek Eav, was charged with war crimes rather than genocide. Nuon Chea, second in command of the Khmer Rouge was charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity and not charged with genocide by the genocide tribunal. As I don't know enough about the Pol Pot regime and the Khemer Rouge who am I to argue that this was wrong?

Katyn was Stalin's paranoid effort

This is a complete misconception. The Memorandum of March 5, 1940 requesting the execution of those held in NKVD POW camps did not come from Stalin at all, it came from L. Beria, The People’s Commissar For Internal Affairs of the USSR. Beria requested Stalin should consider the immedidiate excecution of these POWs which included 6,000 deseters (which was in fact ten times the number of Polish landowners, lawyers and priests listed in the memorandum; Stalin did not disagree that they should be exececuted and signed the documents as did Molotov, Voroshilov and Mikoyan. Also signed by Comrade Kalinin and Comrade Kaganovich. But Stalin did not initiate the executions.

The actual killing, typically with a bullet to the back of the head/neck was carried out by Jewish NKVD functionaries,

Where is you evidence that the executions were the work of Jewish NKVD functionaries? There has been no criminal investigation into Katyń whatsoever—which is the point of Poland's efforts to get one instigated! Your rabid anti-semitism shines through again as a beacon of enlightement—you really should stick to talking to yourself on the oblivion of your blog!
sjam   
27 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

In answer to:

was there war between Russia and Poland after 1945 where NKVD shipped Poles to Siberia
and kill inosent people base they ware Poles

I wrote:

That they were Poles was irrelevant to NKVD; those tortured, executed or deported by NKVD to USSR were deemed enemies or threats to the take over and imposition of communist control of Poland. It was only natural that those victims were Polish as they were in Poland which the Soviets wanted to impose communist rule. Simply that.

doesn't need to have
anything to do with ethnicity.

You still only read into my post what you want to read, not what I actual say. So I have even emboldened the relevant part of each to make it even clearer for you to pick up.

But, if you are broadening this out from Katyń I guess you must think the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban is genocide also afterall here is an identifiable group being specifically targetted for destruction? The Sunni muslims of Iraq killing Shiite muslims and vice versa— both genocide? The Hamas attacks against Israel are also attempted genocide—for political reasons or ethnicity? And Israel's subsequent attacks on Hamas/Palestinians was genocide for attempted genocide from Hamas?

You still don't understand that genocide can also be comitted out of political reasons

More genocide for political reasons. More deliberate targetting of identifiable groups.
The IRA attacks against the British and British killing of IRA—genocide?
ETA in Spain more genocide. White farmers targetted by Mugabe's henchmen for being white farmers .... then the whole world is full of genocide using your 'political' reasons.

between Ukrainians and Poland where U.P. mordered Polish population and then A.K. mordered ukrainian population ?

Genocide by Poles against Ukranians and genocide by Ukranians against Poles!

Your 'political reasons' make as little sense as you changing your mind as to whether war existed between USSR and Poland in 1939 or at all ... one minute you say it was not, then you agree it was! At least I know what I am thinking.

nonsense about Poles feeling "desire to be included in the Holocaust" and not having their sufferings recognized enough etc. etc.?

Undeniably, there are posts after posts on this forum that back up my nonsense! Here is just one from this thread.

"Jews" DID NOT suffer more than "Poles".

is not that about :

not having their sufferings recognized enough etc. etc.?

I didn't even comment on that (out of a pity mostly).

Maybe that is because you are part of the problem not its solution.

Isn't part of the reason that the Polish government also needs Katyń to be classified by world opinion as genocide rather than simply a war crime is that there is a vastly increased chance for Poland to have its day in an international court if it is genocide and not simply a war crime. Having its day in court is about Poland gaining world recognition of Polish suffering often overshadowed by the Jewish Holocaust not about getting justice for crimes committed.
sjam   
27 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

I guess I will have to accept that in your funny little world Katyń will remain a war crime.

I guess we will have to accept that some Poles need Katyń to be genocide rather than a war-crime for all the reasons I have given earlier.

You're not Putin's pal. You're his lackey. That's a huge difference.

Don't forget we have your I.P. address :-)))))

was there war between Russia and Poland after 1945 where NKVD shipped Poles to Siberia and kill inosent people base they ware Poles?

That they were Poles was irrelevant to NKVD; those tortured, executed or deported by NKVD to USSR were deemed enemies or threats to the take over and imposition of communist control of Poland. It was only natural that those victims were Polish as they were in Poland which the Soviets wanted to impose communist rule. Simply that.
sjam   
26 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

the war against Soviet Union ended in September 1939,

And only a few posts ago in the same thread you said there was no war with Soviet Union? Now you agree a war in fact did exist! Ha!

You also said Poland issued a declaration of war against Germany when in fact no such declaration was issued (only a state of emergency and martial law) so in neither case war was formally declared between Poland and USSR or Poland and Germany! When plainly there was see you even agree with me:

the war against Soviet Union ended in September 1939,

No moving this absurdity along, you remark that if this was the case then Poland would still be at war with Russia as the successor to USSR as no peace treaty was signed? So please enlighten me when exactly was the peace treaty signed between defeated Germany and Poland? Nope there wasn't one so Poland must still be at war with Germany. Ha!

* * * *

But I think I know what the underlying issue is all about. It seems to me that some Poles would very much like to use the term genocide by USSR during WWII to further try and compare the tragedy that befell the non-Jews of Poland to that of the Polish Jews, and there are many posts that try to equate the Polish suffering in the same terms as the Holocaust that was suffered by the Jews —when it was no such thing. It was a horrific tragedy of course for all and it was to my own family living in Poland during that time, but it was not the Holocaust as suffered by the Jews.

I have read many attempts by some Poles to imply that of the six million Poles that were exterminated by the Germans half of these were non- Jews so the scale of the catastrophe was the same for both when it clearly was not.

For the Jews this represented let us say 80-90% of the entire Polish Jewish population whereas the 2.5 million killed from a pre-war population of what, 15-20 million (?) non-Jews does not represent a similar catastrophe at all. Of course it is a catastrophe nonetheless.

Maybe this desire to be included in the Holocaust is just an outward expression or reaction for the lack of world recognition of the suffering of Poles during WWII, and IMO that is a valid claim., but so it is for the millions of Soviet men and women that also perished in German camps and by executions. For seventy years the Jewish Holocaust has been the dominant expression of the horror of WWII, and deservedly so, but it was not the only horror (or voice) of WWII and this is what is sometimes lost. I believe this is at the heart of the issue and why some cannot accept that Katyń is simple a war crime—it simply has to be more than that as it means more than that to many Poles, but that reason alone does not change a war-crime into genocide.

ps. My pal Putin sends his love to Poland ;-)
sjam   
25 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

I told you that Katyn was only a logical continuation of earlier Soviet genocide on Polish
nation and you said: "I have yet to see any documentary evidence that the Soviets had
a genocidal policy against Poles per se". You didn't mention any exact period,

Now you say you didn't know we were talking about 1939 or 1940 time period—it is only a matter of reading your own posts how see how absurd it is to say 'You didn't mention any exact period' if I didn't you certainly did ! Ha!

I don't know if the website is great or not (apparently not) but they posted a press
article - an interview with professor Mikołaj Iwanow to which I provided a link.
Anything else posted on that side is none of my concern.

Oh really! I don't believe you! You plainly link to a source coming from a moronic Polish anti-semitic website. But I get where you are coming from now!

Just had a call from my friend Putin who congratulated me on my anti-Polish stance and offered me that medal you mentioned for my efforts. I am off to have dinner with him now :-)
sjam   
25 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

That's why between 1935 and 1939

"First nation punished: Poles in Soviet Union 1921-1939".

Correct me if I am wrong but looking at the dates you refer me too what has this to do with Katyń executions ???

Correct me if I am wrong but we were discussing a period of WWII where I do not believe there was a Soviet genocidal policy targetting Poles during this period in terms of ethnicity or other majorative grouping in the same way the Nazis targetted European Jews?

Unless you are somehow now arguing 144 civil servants, landowners, and Roman Catholic priests were a majorative grouping? Or the 465 former landowners, factory owners and civil servants from western districts of the Ukraine and Belorussia listed in the Katyn execution document? Or the execution of 6,127 deserters is genocide because? Because they constitute a specific group? And what about the 5,345 members of various counter-revolutionary and insurrectionary organisations? or the 347 spies and saboteurs? I would say these are all diseperate groups although 97% were calssified as Polish they were not targetted for being merely Polish that much is clear.

If that is your arguement then it as absurd as you stating that war did not exist between USSR and Poland in 1939 as neither side actually declared war, and yet war existed between Germany and Poland even though neither side actually declared war on each other-well you haven't yet produced any documents to show they did.

I don't mind embarrassing myself further in fact my colour would then match the Red Star I proudly wear on my heart :-))

Great website there Torq! Great picture! Great Polish anti-semitic diatribe! Great site indeed-all credit to you Torq! Ha!

Polish Anti-Semitic graphic on Polonica.net
sjam   
25 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

In historical context, yes, Katyń was genocide in 1948; any Ph.D. will say that and substantiate it as I will. The very term "genocide" was created by a Pole (Raphael Lemkin) during the Nuremberg Trials explicitly to be applied to this crime. Poles say yes, hard-line ex-Soviets say no. Is all really fair in war?

I am sure you don't mean that 'genocide' was coined by Lemkin to apply to Katyń executions?

Surely HWPiel, in truth genocide was coined to describe the slaughter of European Jews which included, let's say roughly 2.5 million or almost 90% of Poland's Jewish population and not to describe the execution of 144 Polish Civil servants, landowners, Roman Catholic priests and military settlers or the 465 former landowners, factory owners and civil servants from western districts of the Ukraine and Belorussia listed in the Katyn execution document. The execution of 6,127 deserters is genocide because? Because they constitute a specific group? And what about the 5,345 members of various counter-revolutionary and insurrectionary organisations? The 347 spies and saboteurs?

No targetting of specific groups unless you would argue that 144 civil servants, landowners, and Roman Catholic priests constitute a majoritive grouping of some kind in the same way that all of the Polish Jews were targetted by the Nazis for which Lemkin coined the term genocide to describe what we now call the Holocaust.

I have yet to see any documentary evidence that the Soviets had a genocidal policy against Poles per se in the same way the the Nazis obviously did against Poles and Jews. Unless of course in the process of your studies you have come across such Soviet documents? If you have then I would be very interested to know of them and I may even be persuaded to agree with your views ;-)

For obvious reasons I have deliberately left out the Polish military POWs who were undeniably prisoners of war and were exhumed still wearing the uniforms they were taken prisoner in.

Dear readers, please review the thread to see who is a Pole and who
is a hard-line ex-Soviet. Ha!

Crikey, now I am a hard-line Soviet, Ha!

I surely do deserve that medal! Maybe the Order of Lenin. Is it still available?
sjam   
24 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

that Poland was in fact at war with Germany (without formal declaration).

So now you are agreeing that there was in fact no formal declaration of war from Poland to Germany. Ha!

Yet, the whole thrust of your argument was based on the premise that as there was no such declaration of war between USSR and Poland Katyńn could not have been a war crime as a sate of war did not exist?

Now using your argument against you as you now accept that there was no declaration of war between Poland and Germany (only a state of emergency and martial law) then likewise there were no war crimes committed in Poland by Germans as a state of war did not exist! If as you have argued a state or war was needed for a war crime to be committed. You can't have it otherwise.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but your argument for holding this opinion is absurd if it is based on the argument you presented.

I do not deny that genocide may or may not have been perpatrated against Poles by Soviet Union prior to 1939 as you allude to, only that it did not take place at Katyń and the other execution sites where POWs were slaughtered. I do not believe there was a genocidal campaign against Poles following 17 September 1939 invasion, the evidence to me is that there were war-crimes ie. Katyń and crimes against humanity-the deportation of between 1,5 -1,7 million Polish civilians to camps in various Soviet Republics, neither of which were genocide.

However, I like the idea of working for Putin-if you are reading this :-)

Here is an interesting account (in Polish) of the battles of SGO "Polesie" with the Red Army at Jabłonią and Infantry Division "Kobryn" at Milanowem from 28 to 29 September 1939 during the non-war with USSR.

1939.pl/bitwy/sgopolesie/

maybe you will even be given a medal.

God knows I deserve one now we have reached a conclusion.
sjam   
24 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

My personal Quote of the Year so far: "Genocide could not have happened
as it didn't exist as a concept."

That's just too funny!

So, you are saying that, for example, in Middle Ages the magnetic field
wasn't there because it "didn't exist as a concept"? :-)

Indeed it was meant to be as ridiculous as your saying there was no 'war' between USSR and Poland in 1939 so no war crimes could have been committed! And by implication Anders was wounded in a friendly fire accident and he should not have sent his cavalry to attack the invading Red Army as they were there as friends (or so the Soviet propaganda went) ! Totally absurd!

The thousands of Polish POWs deported to work in the lead and gold mines of Kolyma were not actually prisoners of war they were sent on a working holiday to help their friends the Soviets? Where were the 'wish you were here' postcards home? Hang on, I guess there must have been soem very compelling postcards home because another 1.5 million Poles went to work in Siberia too! Ha!

And where is your fromal declaration of war between Poland and Germany...you only gave a reference in Polish about a 'state of emergency' and 'martial law' issued by Polish government —it was not a declaration of war! I look forward to seeing this document because by your own statements if there was no formal declaration of war then any battles are clashes and not war, and by implictaion there were no war crimes committed by the Germans in Poland either! Totally absurd!

There is no doubt that Polish forces fought on all fronts against the Germans by those forces that escaped Poland as part of the British (and commonwealth) and French Allies—who had both formally declared war on Germany. But by your definition without a formal declartion of war between the protagonists, Germany and Poland, it is not war but only 'clashes'. The 'clash' of Monte Cassino! Ha! You seem to have ignored answering the question: What was the execution by the Soviets of the defenders of Grodno in 1939? A war crime? or genocide? Surely this is simple enough?

Maybe you are simply a product of a communist eductation system—whereby the invasion of Poland was taught that it was to help the Poles in its time of 'troubles' with the invading German forces from the west who equally were not at war with Poland as they hadn't formally declared war on Poland!

If only the POWs murdered at Katyń weren't wearing Polish army uniforms and had been wearing pantomine horse outfits instead then could all have been said to be held in stables not POW camps, and there is no war-crime in killing horses. Ha!

Makes one wonder why Soviets needed POW camps at all if there was no war going on?

no international court of law would ever consider Katyń
a war crime.

There is no criminal investigation or trial taking place so you cannot make such a definitive statement :-)
sjam   
23 Sep 2009
History / WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed [237]

Soviet military operations on Polish territory after September 17th 1939.

I. Recommend to the NKVD of the USSR:

1). That the cases of the 14,700 people held in POW camps,

Hell no! The Committee Of the All-Union Communist Party and Beria are using the inappropriate term POW! Ha!

Knowing how you like to keep things simple:

1) P = Prisoner
2) O = Of
3) W = War
1+2+3 = Prisoner of War

So I think it is safe to assume the Committee Of the All-Union Communist Party thought they were at war with Poland even if you say Poland did not. No war no POWs!

You can't compare Katyń to the executions after the battle of Grodno or any other clash between Polish and Soviet armies in September 1939.

If you are still saying a state of war did not exist between USSR and Poland when the 300 or so defenders of Grodno were executed in 1939 what are you describing their execution as? genocide also?

If we are to adhere to your nonsensical primary school arguments then you yourself cannot even in fact state that the Katyń was genocide. The executions took place in 1940 and the word genocide was not coined until 1944 so at the time of the executions four years earlier genocide could not have taken place as it didn't exist as a concept. A nonexistent concept in a nonexistent war. Ha!

I am still surprised that you would believe a commander of Anders stature and acumen should have taken it upon himself to attack the Red Army whilst they were on military exercises in Poland during 1939 did he not think that his actions might cause an international incident that could lead to war between his country and the USSR? I wonder if he received compensation for his wounds received due to 'friendly' fire incident with Red Army... oh yes he did, as honoured guest of Stalin at hotel Lubyanka!

You are right in one respect, though this was an entertaining diversion at one point, it is now become repetitively humdrum.

So full circle for me.

Was Katyń genocide?

No it was a war crime.

"Premier gen. dyw. Felicjan Sławoj Składkowski ogłasza za zezwoleniem prezydenta Rzeczypospolitej zarządzenie Rady Ministrów wprowadzajace stan wyjątkowy na całym obszarze państwa, a prezydent Ignacy Mościcki - zarządzenie o stanie wojennym."

"The Prime Minister Maj. Gen.Składkowski publishes with the permission of the President of the Republic Council of Ministers and President Ignacy Mościcki a decree introducing state of emergency throughout the country, and martial law."

No declaration of war then just the introduction of a state of emergency and the introduction of martial law!

Martial law is the system of rules that takes effect when the military takes control of the normal administration of justice. Martial law was attempted to be imposed after hurricane Katrina to control looters. So not quite the same as a state of war.

A state of emergency is a governmental declaration that may suspend certain normal functions of government. Guardian newspaper April 2009 " As fears about swine flu spread around the world, Mike Hodgkinson reports from LA where a state of emergency has already been called" Not the same as a state of war!