News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


It wasn't meant as an insult. It was just that it felt like you were posing ideas just for the sake of argument. And that felt like deliberate denseness. I don't think you're stupid, but I find it frustrating to discuss with someone who says we don't know when someone is dead.

This whole idea that there is any confusion about life and death ... there isn't. New life starts when fertilisation begins. Death would happen to those not on life support. (That they might be aided by life support and then recover doesn't change that - if they weren't on life support, they would be dead.)


I wouldn't, I don't think you are, and anyhow I wouldn't use that word. I reserve that for people who try to con honest workmen out of money, that sort of thing.


I think the figure is about 33%. And when there is a miscarriage, they say 'the baby died' or 'the baby didn't survive'. They don't say 'the baby was dead anyhow and now it is just deader'. (That's what I mean about stupid ... your arguments unravel and end up in statements that are just plain ... ok. Just daft, let's say.)


: ) Ok. Like zillions of women, I have felt new life growing inside me. Also like zillions, I have seen the body of my father, which clearly wasn't alive, and no amount of me arguing otherwise would have changed that. When you feel a tiny flutter against your stomach around 16 weeks and know that the baby is now big enough for you to feel his or her movement, you are absolutely, yes, certain and sure as anything, that a living creature is inside you. And you know that creature was moving before, but you couldn't feel it because he or she was as yet too small. And if you think I am 'projecting' when I say that when you see your father dead, you, erm, will be very sure that he is dead then ... ok. You think that. I'm not projecting. I'm just telling you how it is. You won't be in any doubt.

I only used that rather personal example to point out that the distinction between alive and dead is really a pretty simple one. And yes, of that distinction, I am very sure. As are, I'm also sure, zillions of other people. This isn't some personal opinion of mine. This is observed fact. Just because I am only talking about my observation of it, doesn't mean it isn't true. I don't need to read research to know my baby is alive when she kicks my tummy. You don't need research to tell you that if you jump off a building, you might not survive, and whatever happens, it will bloody hurt. We don't need research to tell us everything ...


This is of course what I was trying to say ... : )
Since you can't be certain the unborn baby isn't alive, you should proceed as if it is. And therefore not kill it.


No, and I didn't say that. I said that as you haven't been pregnant, you haven't felt a child inside you, so you can't say 'it isn't alive' with as much conviction as those who have felt a live child inside them and know full well it is alive. The guys aren't actually claiming that unborn children aren't alive with anything like your conviction. Look: what is so difficult about this point? If you have climbed Everest, and I haven't, then you are much more of an expert on it than I am. I can say 'oh, the research tells me it isn't very cold up there' as much as I like, but if you were there, and you felt the cold, your voicing of your experience is more true than my conjecture based on research. Basically, you know, and I don't.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


: ) Thank you. Liking always gratefully accepted.

I think I am what they call 'finding my internet voice'. I am becoming more bolshy and outspoken by the second : D

I read that first as 'Oh, my Natasia' - that sounded good, as well.

I just think women who say all dicks are the same are deliberately lying. Or perhaps are lesbians?

But, I hasten to add - I am not saying that some dicks are inherently better than others, regardless of who they are attached to. No, no, no. The one attached to the man you love, the one that has perhaps helped create your beautiful daughter, or some such - that is the best one.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Well, since we do know that doctors would say to a woman 7-weeks' pregnant, if she had had a scan at 6 weeks showing a heartbeat, and then a scan at 7 weeks with no heartbeat, that ... her baby had died. 'We are so sorry. The baby was ok last week, but unfortunately now we can't find a heartbeat, so the baby has died'.

So, if it has died, then it was alive before.


Life support machines are artificial. If not on a life support machine, those people would be dead. (And don't start some nifty nonsense about the pregnant mother being a life support machine - she isn't a machine, although she performs the function of nurturing the developing child.)


Are you really that stupid, or just pretending?

You haven't been pregnant. I doubt you have seen someone close, such as your father, lying dead. I promise you that if you had had both of these experiences, you would be in no doubt at all what is life, and what is death.

Life support machines to keep someone 'alive' who has little or no chance of recovery are a different thing. In this situation, the body is usually going nowhere, and the mind is unconscious, possibly never to come back. A developing child is rapidly growing, and is on a straight course to birth and being a young person. You cut off someone who will possibly never live again, it is a hard decision, but probably you are only hastening what is coming anyhow. In cutting off a developing child, you are interrupting the rush to birth. You are not hastening the inevitable death. You are intercepting the inevitable life.

But if you are really so stupid that I have to explain that to you, then am not sure why am even talking to you.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


I agree with your disagreement. You are right.


I disagree. Well, that is how I see it. I guess for you any old dick is a dick. For me, there are dicks and there are dicks.

Not that I have extensive research to compare, but the internet is a wonderful thing (arguably ; ) - just look up 'Penis Gallery' on the net and you will see how they differ ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


It is a word.
wordreference.com/definition/guiltiness

The use of it rather than the much more common 'guilt' was deliberate on my part, because 'guiltiness' imparts a slightly different nuance.


I think I need to put this in plainer English for you. You haven't understood my point. As follows:

If there is any reasonable doubt about whether someone is guilty, we don't kill them.

So, if there is any reasonable doubt about when life begins (which pretty much everyone in this discussion has agreed - i.e., that we can't agree when it might start - some think one thing, someone another), then we shouldn't kill what might be a very small human being.

That clear enough?

Foreigner4:
What if you are wrong NATASIA- just think about that. What if you are wrong?

Well, if I am wrong, someone is born and then as most likely will happen, their mother and/or father will realise that they deserve to be loved, and love them (prostitutes also love their kids, I imagine). And if you are wrong, someone gets killed. So I would prefer the former, because that leaves open the possibilities, whereas your mistake would leave someone dead.


No, but I think the institution that allows this, and the doctor who carries out this procedure, have done something wrong, and against the principles of the doctor's oath to support life.

Personally I didn't feel like a murderer, but I felt that I had failed to defend my child against someone else killing them. I failed in my duty, but the doctor/institution (and by that I mean government as much as the organisation that arranged the operation) - they all went ahead with something very, very wrong.

And yes, I'd love to be able to call the police and ask them to arrest the doctor, the assistants, the head of the organisation, on grounds of unlawful killing, because they misled me, and did not adhere to the terms of the 1967 Abortion Act, and therefore, yes, it was an illegal termination of life. Hmm. Good idea. Will call the police. See what they say.

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


no, neither have I, but it sounds as daft as 'babington' ...

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


what, like saying 'tonnis' instead of 'tennis'?

Ok, simple error - so then when someone says 'oops - sorry - not right' - you say 'oops - sorry - yes' - not 'NO, I AM ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. WHAT, YOU RECKON YOU KNOW JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A (sneeringly said) 'NATIVE' ENGLISH SPEAKER???'.

I should try the same with Poles when I make a mistake. 'What - you say you're right just because you are a native Polish speaker? What makes you think you have the fxxxxxg right to tell me how to speak Polish, matey?'

Yes? Ok?

Life / The "I am never wrong" phenom - is it the Polish thing? [63]


thank you, thank you, i love you, i realise that i am not alone in this wilderness of mad Poles telling me black is white and then hitting me over the head with a horrid sausage ...

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]

Don't be ridiculous. Of course the one with one hole is for salt, and with lots of holes is for pepper. And they do write 'S' and 'P' on them in many sets - S for one hole, P for many ...

It is one of those crazy Polish things where they get the wrong end of the stick and then suddenly 4 million people are saying that is the right end of the stick. Like 'Babington'. I mean. Fcck me. That is where one Pole 80 years ago mispronounced 'Badminton', and now half a nation calls the game 'Babington' (with strong emphasis on the g) ...

I hopped up and down a bit when I first heard that, and told them all how wrong they were, but they looked at me as if I had recently landed in the stary rynek in my flying saucer, fresh from Mars.

Poles have a tendency to grab any old bit of second-hand, chinese-whispered fact and pass it on ... BIG TIME.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


In a word - No.

If European women did like American men, it would be for:

Their politeness.
The indoctrination (aka American film industry) which has made these men feel it is important to make the bed, cook dinner and worship their female companion, and not get divorced like in Kramer v. Kramer.

The fact that the average wage in the US is 18 dollars an hour, and those who make it into a social circle where they would meet European women are usually loaded, and appreciate the comparatively meagre demands of a European woman compared to a seasoned US female.

Because they are nice, and appreciate a nice woman.

Frankly, I would imagine a European woman would like an American man DESPITE his poor old mutilated schlong, as you call it. Not because of. Except, of course, where she does that thing where she over-compensates for a disability ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


I get the feeling you might be more passionate about the act of arguing than about whatever issue is at hand.

Can you factor this into your argument:

In the same way that if there were a genuine question of doubt, a point of debate, over someone's guiltiness of a crime that would carry the death penalty, one would err on the side of caution ... is it not the same where there is, freely acknowledged by most in this current discussion, a point of ambiguity and subjective interpretation over the point at which life begins? Should we not err on the side of caution, respect those who feel life begins at conception, respect and listen to the views of women who have had abortions and later regretted this hugely, and say ... abortion is not a thing into which one should enter lightly? It is not something that we can leave to 'choice'? It is something that should be taken so seriously, that a society says: we would rather not go there. And then does all it can to discourage abortion, and to support women in other ways, so that abortion is not so frequently sought?

If you are wrong, F4 - just think about that. What if you are wrong? What if life begins at conception, and you are saying it is ok for the securely living to extinguish those who have just a feeble grasp on the very beginning of their life ... what if you are saying it is ok to snuff them out, in the interests of 'choice'? Are you ok with that?

Because I wouldn't be. Just because something is small, but distinct, doesn't mean I can trample on it.

Mind you, I would avoid treading on a daisy. Why destroy?

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


in times when there were problems with access to personal hygiene facilities, such as in the desert, or in wartime Britain ... but showers are generally freely available in the States now, I understood?

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


You don't know how glad I am to hear that!!! So it must be a regional and/or class issue, then, I guess ...

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


OMG I so completely relate to that. It is freaky when that happens. Like the shouts of horror and astonishment from my Polish other half and any of his family or friends when they see me wearing washing up gloves. That is apparently bordering on the insane, and certainly a point of amusement/embarrassment/derision for most ... I mean, wtf? Who is interested? Why can't I wear them? What is WRONG with it????

They actually say to me, spluttering with laughter and a kind of utter flabbergastedness: 'Why are you wearing those????'

Why do you think, you nitwits? So I don't burn my hands? So I don't have to touch dirty plates? Because I just had my nails done? Why NOT?

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


What ON EARTH are you talking about????

What is this idea that a natural one has to be in some way physically repulsive, or smell?????? What kind of crazy world do you live in? That is TOTAL NONSENSE. TOTALLY UNTRUE.

I guess you have no experience of it as nature intended. Well, trust me, it functions beautifully.

Life / The "I am never wrong" phenom - is it the Polish thing? [63]


I have gradually noticed it as a phenomenon over the past 6 years of living exclusively with Poles, and yes, it most certainly is one distinct mode of behaviour. That along with if in doubt, always lie. Haven't got time to list examples now, but will do later ...

And no, of course not all Poles do this, but it is something that some do, assiduously.

Law / What kombi/estate car to buy in Poland? [7]


I don't know that VW mechanics are anything to want ... every VW we have ever had has only been 'reliable' until something important blew and it cost thousands to repair ... every single one ... talking probably 10 cars over a period of 12 years, here.

We now have BMWs, and they have the kind of solidity and craftsmanship that I think people associated with VW once.

I would go for something unlikely to break down, but nothing is ultimately reliable. If you get a BMW or Audi, couldn't you get it fixed in Germany if anything went wrong? I don't know how prices are in Poland for servicing of those marques.

If it were me, I'd go for BMW, Audi or Mercedes. They cost more because they're better.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]

Look, isn't it obvious that if it is strongly promoted in the US, then it must be making someone some money? Baby foreskins for face cream. That is a new one on me. I will appreciate my costly Chanel cream even more now ...

And another point: doesn't it ABSOLUTELY follow that any guy who is circumcised is going to say that's the best thing to do? But I have to say ... how would he know, if he's never had his own foreskin? (well, only for a short while, before it went in the Nivea)

Circumcision isn't practised (note sp. ; ) in Poland because they don't like the idea of it, and aren't Jewish or of Arab upbringing for the most part. End of.

AND A JOLLY GOOD THING TOO! (that they don't practise it ...)
- in my heathen opinion.

Love / Polish mother, possible UK father - child law Poland. [35]

Like I said, play along, say you will sign, but DNA test first, then sign birth cert but don't sign that crazy paper ... like enkidu said ... like Harry said.

One thing is sure: she has A PLAN. And that plan certainly isn't designed to promote your well-being, you can bet on that. Or the kid's really. It is her plan. To have things arranged as she wants it.

You were a sperm bank.
Now you are going to be bank rolling her life.
If you aren't careful.

Love / Polish mother, possible UK father - child law Poland. [35]

sorry - to be fair I was actually thinking about when Poles in the UK go to the Embassy in London - then it seems that both parents and child have to be there - I did question that, but everyone said that was how it has to be. Maybe it isn't true, but that is what they have all been led to believe : )

If he is the father, he should support, but also have the chance to be a father. Not pay but relinquish all responsibilities, rights and access. That is just using him, and also is not good for the child.

Maybe she went to a sperm bank ...

Love / Polish mother, possible UK father - child law Poland. [35]

I am a bit confused by all of this.

First, you say your girlfriend, but she sounds I think like your ex.
She wants to have the baby for herself and not have you involved.
You have good reason to think you might not be the father.
She was desperate to have a child, obviously the biological clock was ticking, and she made it clear she didn't want to waste any time with you if you weren't going to have a child with her. Either the child is someone else's, or she got pregnant by some sort of trick, without your knowledge/consent.

Ok.

So why does she now pop up and want you on the birth cert, so the child has a certified father, but want you to sign away the joint rights of a parent, so she doesn't need to ask you whenever she wants to organise anything for the child? If she doesn't want you interfering, then why have you on the birth cert at all?

I think ...

You probably are the father, BUT, you must have the DNA test as soon as the child is born.

You might not be the father - she might have done any number of things to get pregnant - but she, whether you are or aren't, wants a father on the cert.

There are only two reasons she would want you on there, having previously (before the lawyer's visit) said she didn't want you.

1. She doesn't want 'father unknown' on there as that sounds kind of slutty on her part.
2. If a father is named, he can be forced to provide child support.

I suspect No. 2 is uppermost in her mind ...

Basically, she wants you to pay, but she doesn't want you to be involved, and she doesn't want to have to negotiate with you when she has to do anything for the child (in Poland you can't even send off for the kid's passport - both parents must be physically present, and the child, to fix it).

No question of this - I know my answers:

1. Tell her you can't do anything until the child is born and a DNA test is done.
2. Tell her that if you are the father, you will go on the birth cert and sign the form she wants.
3. Have the DNA test.
4. If you are the father, go on the birth cert but then say you have changed your mind and want contact with your child and will not sign the form she wants.

And then, be involved in some way in your child's life. She can't stop you having access to the child. You will probably have to go through the courts, but so be it.

Do not sign up to pay but give up all rights and give her all the power. No way. She will only do what suits her, and you are only, and have only ever been, a pawn here.

But the real truth is that you might - if you are very lucky - have a son or daughter on the way. You are right to realise that although you thought you didn't want a kid, maybe you will change your mind.

And let's face it: every child has a right to know their father, and to love and be loved by their father. Do you want to lose out on that? Not if you have learnt anything in all these decades you've been around ... : ) Come on. The joy of seeing your child grow up really is something special. If you've been given this, make the most of it.

She doesn't want you in it because she wants all that pleasure for herself. But your child would suffer, of course, if he or she thought their dad didn't want anything to do with them. That would be an awful burden to set your own family off with. This is your flesh and blood. This person is all of you, and all of her. OK, yes, her DNA is there as well - but just wait until you see yours coming out in the child, and you will feel different, I think.

But at the moment: hold fire: tell her DNA test first, everything else after.

She is a sly bugger, that's for damn sure. Don't trust her.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


??? sorry, but have to disagree ... I would say it is as integral a part of the fusion of two people as the female orgasming ... sine qua non ... without which not ... just not it at all, without the male orgasm. I will restrain myself and not wax lyrical, but suffice to say, the male orgasm is a delightful event for the right-minded female, in my humble opinion.

I know that is a little off-topic, so will add the comment that I am rather for everything being natural and following instinct, and that is why I side with the Poles in their culture of leaving the male entire, rather than trimming him ...

Love / Observations and experiences so far about Polish women [93]


Yes, of course it is - what I meant was that one can take certain strong characteristics, and present them as either positive or negative - and however one does so is very subjective.

Personally I think Polish women have a lot going for them, but are a very strong type, and not to be undertaken lightly, as it were.

And as for British women not linking love and sex, not being good home-makers, and not being involved in the sack ... careful there ... I for one then presumably am not British, by that definition ... which again reminds us of the fact that all stereotyping is just that ...

Love / Observations and experiences so far about Polish women [93]

The most distinctive features that I have noticed across the board with most Polish women is that:

- They do, yes, expect to have a boyfriend/husband from 18 onwards, and do not have high expectations in terms of who they take - it is a bit like finding a partner at school - everyone has to be with someone. This is a massive difference with, e.g, British women, who have been brought up with mixed messages about relationships, compromise, perfection, and mostly what is our 'due' - a fractured culture that has bred a lot confusion, casual relationships, alcoholism and general misery until people finally work out what is important (usually in their 30s at some point), but hey, that isn't the question here ...

- They don't have a problem cooking/washing/cleaning/looking after a guy ... in fact, they are keen to have a guy on whom they can practise their female prowess in these areas, and show off to their girlfriends. It is a matter of female pride - how clean the house, how well-pressed the guy's clothes, how well-fed he is, how perfumed the lady. So totally different from 'emancipated' women who have been brought up to insist on sharing chores and beyond (to the point where the downtrodden guys usually do all the washing-up ...) and who would not dream of ironing a shirt or sheet, let alone a pair of boxers (one of my favourite occupations now, I have to say, but it took me a few years to embrace the pleasure) ...

- They generally say they would absolutely refuse to indulge in oral sex (but I have no idea whether that is just a front of modesty ... )

So you could, I suppose, translate that into they are man-grabbing, possessive, traditional, opinionated, narrow-minded, frigid mini-matriarchs (if we are talking about the ones in their 20s) ... but would that be fair, I wonder?

Love / Should I forgive my cheating Polish girlfriend? [73]


Actually, maybe you have a point here.

SMP: I think she said she was moving out to 'get her life together' because she didn't want to be with you. People don't go to the extent of renting a new flat unless they really want out. And they don't move one inch from your side if they love you like you think she loves you. She can't love you like that. If she did, whatever happened between you, she would be stuck to your side like a limpet. Trust me on this one.

And I think she agreed to your still 'dating' just to let you down easy and basically for you to let her out of the door (and perhaps help with suitcases to the road and taxi fare to new flat ; ).

I am sorry, but standing back and detaching your feelings about her from the facts, I think she was really just moving out and getting away from you.

Poles often say 'you can't force anything', and they also say that if someone wants to be with you, they will be, and if they don't, they won't. Sounds so simple it seems obvious, but I think these are facts that you need to accept, and you aren't there yet.

Language / Beginner learner of Polish having trouble with nouns - they change as well as numbers? [27]


One of the main structural principles in Polish is the same as in lots of other languages (German, Greek, Latin, Russian, lots more ...). It is really important to grasp, because we hardly play around with nouns in English, but nouns have lots of different forms in Polish and these other languages.

Basically, in English you have:

dog
dog's
dogs

- and those are your three noun forms.

In Polish, for starters you have a different form for each of these contexts (PLEASE NOTE: THE POLISH UNDERNEATH IS A JOKE):

The DOG went for a walk.
Dog poszedl na spacer ...

The bicycle ran over the DOG.
Rower rozjechal Doga ...

The boy stood on the DOG'S tail.
Chlopiec stal na ogonka Doga ...

Tell the DOG all about it.
Powiedz Dogowy o tym wszystkim ...

I am thinking about the DOG.
Mysle, o Doga ...

I am a DOG.
Jestem Dogem.

Hey, DOG!
Hej, Dogu!

... and then the same again for the plural.

You might think this makes life difficult, but actually it defines life and action in a more precise way than English, and as such is rather satisfying, I find.

And yes, words which describe the nouns (adjectives, numbers, etc.) do have to follow suit, as it were.

My advice: grasp the principles, then learn actual words and how they go in small, simple steps.

Good luck ...

Love / Is it easy to get divorced if my Polish partner is still married? [4]

It depends where you are living. In Poland I understand she would have to go to court and explain herself. In the UK she can just say he's nasty and she is free, pretty much.

Love / Should I forgive my cheating Polish girlfriend? [73]


Exactly.

It is very hard, but the only way to see who else is out there and free yourself up for some real love is to just cut her out. It goes against our instincts, once we have bonded, to turn away, but sometimes we have to.

And Rysavy is right - there are so many of us nice, kind women out there! Really. Choose one who deserves your attentions.

Language / What has been the hardest language for you to learn? [81]


Yes, spent all last night listening to Russian friends, and it was gossamer-soft compared to Polish ...


Wow, you must have remembered that from some other post, a good while ago ... I didn't mention the Greek this time ... but as for Russian being my Aston Martin (always my car of choice) - hmm - wouldn't that be too perfect? I hardly dare hope.

It appeals, though, Russian, doesn't it? Seems an almost unbearably romantic language to me. But then that's all those writers and composers working on me. How not to be seduced by Tolstoy and Rachmaninov?

Love / Should I forgive my cheating Polish girlfriend? [73]


Yep, for sure.

Look, the deal is simple:
You love her. You dote on her. You desperately want it to be true that your love is 'pure' and that despite the emotional roller coaster with her, she knows in her heart that she will never find someone better than you, and she doesn't want to 'risk' losing that.

But it is just that ... your desperate wish. In reality, all of us reading the facts can see that she is out for herself, and no way emotionally mature enough to be happy herself, let alone even begin to want to make you happy.

You love her, so you probably will take her back, if she comes back. I suspect she won't come back. I think she will probably send you some texts/call a few times when she is drunk, and probably also turn up for a bit of sex from time to time, or some money, or for dinner. She will keep you hanging on. You will live your life all around the hope that she will come back begging. But as I say, I suspect she won't. She wants to be out there 'having fun'.

Look, I do understand how intoxicating this injection of Polish vitality can be - oh trust me, boy do I - but if she has gone, the sensible option would be to keep her gone. If/when she comes back, you will be plunged into all this nonsense again, and long-term it will most likely be pretty destructive for your life.

Trying to keep someone like this happy is a thankless task, and an impossible one. This horse is loco ... let it go.