News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Do you hold the same opinion about In Vitro?


It's also easy for people to let their emotions be their only guide.

I have yet to hear any argument against my idea of abortion becoming illegal and the horrifying repercussions, i.e. unsafe abortions.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Read this, it'll help
jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


I am just trying to figure out when human personhood begins, some believe sperm has the potential and therefore it is sacred.


And others say sperm:



Enlighten me, what is the issue at hand? I'm talking about abortion, how it is practiced as much if it is legal as when it is not and therefore more dangerous.


I am here discussing, what's your point?


That's why I mentioned Hansel and Gretel before.


From two different lives, you get a third, new life, when do you think that happens and what are your thoughts on In Vitro?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


What are your thoughts on In Vitro?

Okay, so lets take a look at the situation where abortion is illegal.


WHO

So people are not going to stop, just because it's illegal.

Unsafe abortions: (illegal abortions)



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Unsafe_abortion

So making it illegal would appear to kill adults. The psychological trauma that it creates and the lining of gangster's pockets. We live in a far from perfect world, just making something illegal doesn't change much, I am arguing that it would make the world worse,

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Yes sorry, I missed that, I should not post when I am tired.


Do you consider a fetus not to have human personhood before brain function? and after the fetus has brain function the beginning of human personhood?


I doubt if anyone would disagree on that.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


But not abortion.

I agree that we all talk about ourselves, at least to a certain extent.

Just because you have given birth and you are content with what you find your role, it does not speak for everyone, none of us do.

I have a question, would you be ready to accept abortion, as an option, if it got a "Yes" vote in a referendum from the democratic society?


I forgot to put a smiley face at the end of that post, soz :)

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Have you had an abortion? or what experience are you talking about?

(sorry if I missed it in a previous post)


The point really is, we (as in you and I) don't seem to really know when life begins, the same problem existed back then and in years to come.... who knows?


Oh no, the brutal death of a language.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]




These seem to be the physical aspects:

Biological markers

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood#Biological_markers

I can't help but think that it's around the time of development of a central nervous system but I don't know.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


And again we agree, I better quit now before anything changes :)

It's late, night folks.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


So long as there is a means of communication I think people always find common ground.

The In Vitro one is weird, i mean say you have a couple that can't conceive and still want their own baby but the church put pressure on the government to decrease that from happening.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilisation#Catholic_objections

It just seems unfair.


We don't seem to be getting very far on those ones.

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I totally agree.

And you said it would never happen ;)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Feel like it? they were not talking about emotions and it certainly isn't something to misinform young teens in a classroom with.


Ah come on, that's very different from a coat hanger and agian in the disguise of "education".


These people had their abortions in England not down a dark ally.


I was trying to say that there isn't just a woman who wishes she never had an abortion and the other alternative only being that she wished she never had the child (it was implied she kept the child).


A woman tried to have sex with me without protection using the calendar, not in a million years would I do that.


i would strongly argue not enough, the snip is off the cards and RCC tells every Catholic that condoms, the pill are immoral.


It is if you use protection.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Well I think we all agree that education is the best way to inform people of the repercussions of their actions and choices.

I had religion class with a nun in Ireland when I was15. She played videos of interviewed women who had abortions and they testified that they could hear the baby screaming inside them (not even close to possible). She also told us that an abortion is done by medication which melts the baby or by something like a wire coat hanger that is inserted into the woman which is twisted around and scrambles the babies brains.


I'd assume that a woman who had a baby she didn't want would put her child up for adoption.
I mean it's not a simple either or scenario.

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So why are you against abortions if it's before 6 weeks if it's not alive?


now you are just trying to put words in my mouth.


You said we are here to reproduce, when clearly some people don't reproduce.

USA, Canada / Moved back from Canada to Poland:). Here are the reasons why. [868]


Who told you that? I want names? websites?

I don't believe you! :)

Is there a trust index?


There is a saying in Ireland that a man will walk miles holding his friend's coffin but wouldn't walk across the street to congratulate him.


Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by ******** :)

Where I am from people are more open, I miss that.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


You edited your post, do you mean you believe the part you put in bold?
This part:


If so, then do you consider it not an abortion before 6 weeks?


I am sure that people who were forced to murder someone do not have it easy.


Everyone? even Nuns? :)


You never have to agree with me, we are discussing different points of view.


That makes much more sense in this context.

But again, ethics vary and change considerably (I get the feeling I am might start a thread on this in which I'll be the only one to have posted:)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


What do you believe?
You have some very strong opinions about it, I just thought it would help me understand when you thought a human is and why then.

Some people believe women are baby making machines, others that every sperm is sacred, I tried to go though a few of the beliefs people have earlier.


I don't plan on killing anyone, if I ever did, it would be for a very good reason.
And natural, yes.

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I get you now, thanks for the clarification.

I agree, that's why my understanding is it's more up to the woman.

They say giving birth is equivalent to having a limb severed off.


I honestly can't tell you either.
I don't know.


Maybe, i thought it was because of the fetus' that don't make it because they produce a few to get the one that has the best chances.


I would never like to see abortion being taken likely and yet I know it is to some people.


The other end of that is making it law that they have no choice if it is illegal.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


People (and other aniimals) have been murdered all throughout history, it's nothing new, it's not even unusual.
We have wars for goodness sake.

When do you think a human is formed?

(third time asking but third time can be the charm:)


That's a whole thread in itself.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


I just get this feeling that when the "unnatural" argument is brought up about homosexuals, abortions, GM foods etc...

It seems that people are saying we should all be living in a forest eating berries and that whatever is the most common is "natural" and whatever is outside of their "norms" is unnatural.

That everyone should go to school, church on a Sunday, to college, get a job, marry, have two and a half children etc and anything else is somehow 'unnatural'.

Maybe I have misunderstood what has been said but without clarification that's what it sounds like to me.


Well put.

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Well in essence, isn't that child support?


In your view, is the morning after pill the same as an abortion? what about condoms or having the snip?


Exactly when is a human formed, in your view?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


The way I see it is, certain moralities work under certain conditions.
Morality has changed over the years, what was acceptable two thousand years ago would be seen as shockingly criminal today.
I mean evolution has guided morality.


I don't follow how we are back to square one?


To have a baby or not.


I can't think of a legal way to get a woman pregnant without her concent, yet that possibility exists for women.


So when do you think human life begins?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


So why are they so against In Vitro?


bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11605216


Thanks Pgtx but I was thinking more about the argument that ''morality is part of evolution and can be seen in other animals" type of thread.


Years ago I probably would have agreed with you.
That is until I saw what women have to go through to conceive a child.
Now I think that the father may try to convince the woman but it is ultimately her choice.

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I think it does, I think morality is a process of evolution.

I don't want to stray too much off topic, I was going to start a thread about it some time ago but never got around to it.

Without making a big song and dance about it this is a simple way to explain it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Evolution



Perhaps this is a matter of semantics?
By "unnatural" do you mean "man-made"?

If not then there seems to be a predictable 'life' that does what it ought to and anything else is not usual (could I use not usual instead of unnatural?).

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


I was just wondering because you say that life begins when the sperm enters the egg, that is when a human begins and if you terminate at that point it is killing a human.

IVF usually entails the creation of multiple human embryos to ensure a greater chance of successful implantation. Therefor some are disguarded and I was just wondering by your clear definition, would you also consider that killing a human?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Some would disagree, not me but in my last post I tried to put as many ideas of life and when people thinks it should begin and end.


So are you against in vitro?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


This post got me thinking about the beginning.
Not happy with my last post, I decided to put what I know of as people's beliefs (very briefly) about when is termination of a life.

I'll put my own thoughts in italics and brackets at the end of each point.

A) We are here to reproduce.

Eugenics
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics,
Gene-centered view of evolution, breeding (women are baby producing machines).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centered_view_of_evolution

(I do not approve of setting up farms and focing people to breed, either by misinforming them or indoctrination)

B) Pre-Fertility control.

Birth control, being able either physically or mentally (celibacy or abstinence), vasectomy, tubal ligation, condoms,
Calendar-based contraceptive methods
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar-based_contraceptive_methods

(I think it is the right of the person whether they choose to do this or not and nobody should dictate to them)

C) Consensual post-Fertility control.

Morning after pill. termination of pregnancy (the timescale seems to vary widely depending on country).

D) Non-consensual post-Fertility control.

One-child policy

E) Infanticide.

Hansel and Gretel. most would agree this to be out right murder but it is not always clear cut:

Crying Baby Dilemma

F) Capital punishment.

I heard an interesting quote that George W Bush is a perfect fisherman, he's antiabortion but pro death penalty, he throws the fish back into the water and gets them later when they are big.

(Personally I have cognitive dissonance with this one, I don' believe in killing killers but I would want to kill the person who killed my loved ones but think it mad that extreme pro-lifers would kill a doctor for the sake of cells.)

G) Senicide (the killing of old people)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senicide

Although many cultures believe this is killing, it has been in practice for practical reasons in many cultures.

(I used to work in a not particularly nice old folks home, it is comparable to leaving them somewhere to die).


I agree. I could never understand how people thought we were somehow outside of nature.

(right break over, back to studying:)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Okay, when is the beginning?
After fertilisation of the egg? before?

Some believe that sperm should not be 'wasted' because it has the potential for life, others believe that a woman should not be able to make herself sterile because of the potential for life.

if we are going to call a group of cells "potential for life" then my question is at what stage do people on here see it?

The intention of having unprotected sex could be seen as the "beginning".


I have never really looked in to it but I wouldn't say a sperm is a person and even if it has the potential to become one, I would not say not using that potential is wrong.

I also doubt if a fertilised egg is a person, although again it has the potential.

I have never been in a position were I would have the option of an abortion.
Some of my friends have had abortions, they are illegal in Ireland so they had to go to England to have them.

I do find it really strange that people can't sterilise themselves though, that's how far back some people believe the ''potential to create a person'' goes and how far they are willing too impede in other people's lives..

Yet celibacy or abstinence are in fact doing the same thing but that seems to be honored.


You are probably the only person I have considered to put on an ignore list only because you never have a point to make and you're insufferably boring.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Thanks for the clarification.



Are you saying these people are unnatural?

And under what authority do you make such a judgment?