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Posts by sijet  

Joined: 4 Jan 2020 / Male ♂ 		Last Post: 9 Apr 2020
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sijet   
4 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

Merged:

Question about Poland Nationality Act 1920 - foreigners who are of Polish descent



In Article 3 of Polish Nationality Act 1920, it said that citizens of foreign countries "who are of Polish descent" could become Polish citizens if they followed the stipulations of the article. Does anyone know how, during the time of II RP, this "Polish descent" was defined? For example, if someone was already over age 21 in 1920, and they were born in a foreign country but had a parent from the territory which became Poland, could they have become Polish citizens? I know the matter was different for underage children, but I am asking about people who were already adults at the time when the Act came into effect.
sijet   
5 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

^ Sorry, maybe I didn't make my question clear. I am not interested in what the Polish government today thinks of those people, I am just asking if they could have become Polish citizens during the time of II RP. I originally asked this question in the History section, because it was a historical query, not a query about modern law, but for some reason my question was merged with this topic...

When I was reading Article 3, my understanding was that foreign-born adults in 1920 could become Polish citizens if they simply renounced their foreign-born citizenship and provided proof of their Polish heritage, but I just wanted to double-check this to make sure I understood it correctly.
sijet   
5 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

@PTK Thanks, do you know if that also included people born in places like Canada or the USA if they were of Polish descent? My understanding is that they were covered under Article 3 (assuming they returned to Poland and renounced US or Canadian citizenship) but I'm not 100% sure...
sijet   
14 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

@PTK Are you talking about this circular? polishcitizenship.pl/law/

I don't know if it says that those born before 1920 can't be citizens. It says that:

"It is beyond any doubt that children of a person who is settled on The Polish State's territory born in The United States and who were over 21 years-old on January 31, 1920 are not Polish citizens."

But then it also says that:

"Persons who are born in America are Polish citizens if they became polish citizens in the way pointed out in article 3 or obtained polish citizenship in one of ways mentioned in subsections 2-5 of article 4 of the act dated 20th of January 1920 although the American citizenship serves them by birth. Under age children of people who obtained polish citizenship on above mentioned conditions are also polish citizens even if they are American citizens by birth regardless of if they were born before or after the act dated 20th of January 1920 came into force alternately before or after obtaining the polish citizenship on above mentioned titles grounds."

To me, this sounds like adults who were born in America before 1920 could still become Polish citizens if they followed the process of Article 3, while those born before 1920 but who were still underage at the time of the Act could be dual citizens if their parents took Polish citizenship. Or am I interpreting this wrong?
sijet   
22 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

@PTK I'm sorry, but I don't understand where you see in the circular that people born in the US before 1920 were denied citizenship. Doesn't it clearly state that: "Under age children of people who obtained polish citizenship on above mentioned conditions are also polish citizens even if they are American citizens by birth regardless of if they were born before or after the act dated 20th of January 1920 came into force alternately before or after obtaining the polish citizenship on above mentioned titles grounds."

To me, this seems to plainly state that people born in the US before 1920 could obtain Polish citizenship if they were underage and they were born of people who became Polish citizens, alternatively people born in US before 1920 could become Polish citizens on "above mentioned titles grounds", which included Article 3...
sijet   
27 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

@PTK It sure is confusing... I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain it, although unfortunately I still don't understand a few points. If people born abroad before 1920 could not be Polish citizens, then what was the point of Article 3 of the Citizenship Act 1920? It seems to have been specifically laid out for overseas people who wanted to become Polish citizens after returning to the motherland and renouncing foreign citizenship. It says they "and their progeny" would be recognized as Polish citizens "if they submit proofs of Polish provenance with a declaration they wish to be Polish citizens and they resign from the citizenship of another country to the relevant Polish authority after returning to the Polish State."
sijet   
28 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

@PTK Ah, I think I am beginning to understand. Thank you again very much for your explanations, it's a very helpful look into a surprisingly convoluted history.

So, in summary, if I can just be sure I understand correctly now:

During the time of II RP (1920s-30s), foreign adults born before 1920 who were of Polish descent may not have automatically been recognized as Polish citizens, but they could still apply to become Polish citizens under provisions like Article 3. Likewise, if there was an underage foreign-born child whose parents became Polish citizens after 1918, that child could obtain Polish citizenship through their parents even if the child was born before 1920 and had a foreign passport by birth.

Am I correct now?
sijet   
28 Jan 2020
Law / Polish Citizenship by Descent Question - Polish Citizenship Acts [36]

@PTK Thank you once again for all your help. I really appreciate your time and answers to my questions, it has been very enlightening. Our conversation has certainly made me glad that I was born a citizen and do not need to rely on tracing back my ancestors :P

From the historical perspective (which is what lead me to ask) it is interesting to see how II RP would have handled this issue at the time (1920s-30s). With many ethnic Poles born overseas before 1920 as a result of the 19th-20th century emigrations, I was very curious to know what would have become of them if they tried to return to the motherland. I am glad I received some enlightenment on this issue :)
sijet   
7 Apr 2020
History / Polish citizens in Vichy France? [13]

Does anyone know how the Vichy regime treated Polish citizens who might have been in their territory? Did they hand them over to the Germans or intern them? Or were they left alone? I have not found any evidence of formal declarations of war between Poland and Vichy France. Is it possible that Vichy France recognized the dissolution of Poland after the German-Soviet invasion and just treated Poles as stateless people, or as German/Soviet subjects?

Considering that there has been a Polish diaspora in France for many generations, I would find it hard to believe if there was not one Polish citizen present in the regions controlled by the Vichy regime, but I have no sources to verify that, so I hope someone here can elaborate.

Any information would be appreciated.
sijet   
8 Apr 2020
History / Poland relations with Italy 1939-43? [4]

As I understand it, Poland and Italy had at least neutral relations before the start of the Second World War. Does anyone know what the situation was like after the German-Soviet invasion in 1939?

Yes, we all know about the Polish troops fighting in Italy (e.g. Monte Cassino), but this was after the collapse of Mussolini's government. What were the relations like between 1939-43?

One website I found claims that Poland only broke diplomatic ties with Italy on November 13, 1940: worldatwar.net/timeline/other/diplomacy39-45.html
Does this mean that Italy and the Polish government-in-exile maintained contacts before this, and that Italy did not recognise the dissolution of Poland in 1939?

Was there ever a formal declaration of war between the two countries?

What about Polish citisens in Italian territory? Were they interned or handed over to the Germans after Italy joined the war?

Any information on this topic would be appreciated.
sijet   
8 Apr 2020
History / Polish citizens in Vichy France? [13]

It seems that Polish citisens were active in the French resistance during the war, and that there was even a Polish secondary school in Villard-de-Lans that operated during the war:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_resistance_in_France_during_World_War_II

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villard-de-Lans

I have to wonder, does this mean there were Polish nationals living out in the open in Vichy territory? If so, what sort of regulations/restrictions were they placed under?
sijet   
9 Apr 2020
History / Polish citizens in Vichy France? [13]

@jon357 This depends on a number of factors. It was possible during II RP for members of the Polish diaspora to become Polish citisens, and there were some who did (for example, members of the Polish diaspora in Harbin). There was also, as I'm sure you know, an exodus of Polish citisens (from Poland) to France in the wake of the 1939 invasions, and not all of them managed to escape the country before the fall of France.
sijet   
9 Apr 2020
History / Polish citizens in Vichy France? [13]

@jon357 Well, regardless, Lille was not part of Vichy territory, and neither was Paris. They were in the German occupation zone. So, the potential Polish citisens we should be looking for would be in the south, or else people from places like Paris who fled south during the German invasion. The Polish school that I mentioned was in the south (Villard-de-Lans).