Life / My experience in Poland 15 years ago as an American trying to live and work there. [167]

Merged: Any experiences of Americans expatriating to Poland???

After much lurking around and reading random posts I decided to join this site.. mainly because I'm looking to expatriate to Poland soon - like in the next year or two...

A little about me: I'm a 25 year old male and I was born in Wroclaw. I currently reside in Lake Forest Illinois which is about 20 miles north of downtown Chicago. I have family that still lives in Wroclaw as well as other parts of Poland and the rest of Europe (Dortmund, Holland, London, Tychy). My uncle actually owns a popular hotel in Poland (Hotel Piramida in Tychy). I am fluent in English and Polish and am moderately proficient in Russian and Spanish as well. I graduated about 2 years ago with a bachelor's in International Business and will be beginning my MBA (also with a concentration in international business) in the fall. I currently work for a publicly traded corporation outside of Chicago Il that has a couple locations around the world but unfortunately none in Poland.

Most of my experience is in sales, management, and finance. I see that there's a lot of IT and teaching jobs available in Poland but the pay is rather low. The only job I really saw so far on an that interested me was on an online board for a sales manager position and the pay was $30k Euro + commission. I don't expect to make the same salary as I would in the US as costs of living are a bit less in Poland but I would like to make at least the equivalent of $60k-$70k gross annually. I am single and have no kids but I do like to maintain a certain type of lifestyle.

Does anyone have any experiences expatriating to Poland? If so, was it difficult to get a job? Did you have to take a salary cut or did your earnings remain about the same? Did you find a job through a recruiting agency or directly from the employer? Did the employer help with temporary housing and helping you move? Any help or experiences would be appreciated...

Thanks!!!

Life / My experience in Poland 15 years ago as an American trying to live and work there. [167]

Wow thanks for all the responses! Holy crap.. lol.. well it looks like I may have to wait a good 5-10 years before I can expat to PL and make the salary I want and/or follow the markets there even more closely... Guess for now it'll be somewhere I'll use my vacations day to visit = / I could do living in Poland but would probably have to travel to Western European countries to really make some decent coin.

When my family moved to the U.S. my mother and father contemplated what to do with the money they saved up. I write this because I'm actually the same as they were at this time - granted this is the late 80's, early 90s. They debated to either move to the US and work (mom was already fluent in English - she worked for Western Electric and we had some connections in Chicago). My dad was a jeweler by trade in Communism and his parents, my grandparents were in the meat business. They also made some money from dollar exchanging, cars/cigs/jeans/electronics/etc. smuggling from West Germany so they were able to put aside some cash. They were either going to purchase a beautiful home in a nice Warsaw suburb or go to Chicago. They chose the U.S. If they bought the house in Warsaw they'd be for Poland since the real estate became hot. In fact, the house I was born in is near the Wroclaw airport and I think they got around 200k USD for it, about 7 years ago. It had an orchard and the property value went up astronomically since we lived there.

In the U.S. job market, it's not hard for me to find a good paying job. I feel I've truly been blessed and very lucky as well because I know a lot of my friends have had a lot of trouble finding a good job. It's got to the point where there's former attorneys applying for secretary and office admin jobs. That's why I feel really blessed since I haven't had to face much if any job insecurity. However, I work like 60-70 hour weeks amongst two jobs, both in sales and a good portion of my income (about 1/2) is commission. Plus I try to make a couple bucks on the market, doing remodeling, etc. I worked as a commodity broker throughout college and made out pretty well when a lot of the well heeled Americans moved their money out of blue chips and into precious metals. You wouldn't believe how many farmers might wear dirty overall everyday and drive a 20 year old truck but have $3 mil in assets. This demographic was about 50% of my clients when I worked as a broker.

I got offered to do a transfer to Bucharest, Romania or Madrid, Spain with my current employer. The offer in Bucharest I wasn't too interested in as I don't know the language at all and I think I would already be a bit out of place in Europe but coming to a country where I have no knowledge of the language would make it a bit harder. Although the pay at 40k USD a year was very enticing.

I did a lot of consideration with Madrid though. They offered me $17 an hour with full benefits (health, dental, life, $5k a year towards furthering education, employer matched 401k, preferred stock, etc.) but the position was for a Customer Service manager. I declined their offer. I'd essentially be doing the same thing but with a larger team, a different country and market, and focused on customer service management rather than sales. One Greek dude who I use to work with took the offer but quit about 5-6 months later although he had kids so I think it could've been more related to his family.

That's unfortuante that salaries are low like that in Poland. I do sense a bit more of an entreprenuerial sprit increasing in Poland and we made it through the recession pretty damn good. I think this will take a while though. I know a lot of the Western world looks to Poland as an IT hub and in a way a source of high skilled but relatively inexpensive labor. Ikea, IBM, HP, Google, as well as various banks I do know have operations in PL. However, I haven't seen too many 'good' job openings in the realm of sales, finance, or management (except IT related) with high salaries. Even the doctors and specialist don't make all that much although more people go towards medicine for passion rather than for a high salary. Nonetheless, even 'average' jobs are rather low still in Poland compared to pockets of Eastern and Central Europe. I've heard of nannies in Moscow getting paid $10-$12 an hour which is quite a bit all things considered. The job I described above the on that I saw in Gdansk for a regional sales manager (which is my title right now actually) is one I would love to do and probably will do something like that in the future in Poland - but perhaps first it would be wise to save up some capital, get more experience, more connections, etc. 30k EU a year + commission I could do and live on, although I am kind of skeptical because that was really the only job I saw despite quite a bit of research that paid that much - most were quite a bit less. Either way, breaking the six figure mark with a job in Poland doesn't look too realistic, at least not in the near future.

I wonder what it would take to make PL a country where the purchasing power of the average citizen exceeds USD $25k annually. I'd be happy if it even was equal to the Czech Republic's. We don't have oil or natural gas, or too much of a domestic market and we don't have as large of a banking sector as the West, but it looks like PL has a good reputation for IT and skilled manufacturing. I know one Polish guy made his million by forming a screen printing company (he has a company that makes the machines that makes t-shirts, hoodies, etc.) and his machines are assembled in PL. He sells to over 70 counties - he has machines brought over from China, assembled in PL, and sold from the Chicago suburb office (sales/marketing and HQ) around the world although most machines end up in the U.S. although Latin America is gradually becoming a larger customer for him.

How is it though that like even though in PL people don't make much but yet they seem to like get by. Not many seem to be like going hungry, without clothes, etc. and oftentimes they have even basic luxuries like a lower end German car, a flat screen TV, etc.

Also, I know it's been a bit since my stats class, but unless I'm reading that chart incorrectly - is that stating that only the top 5.24% in Poland made over 5,000 PLN Brutto in 2010 while the top 2% made over 10k PLN ? (which is about $1,500 USD for 5k pln, $3k USD gross for 10k PLN... I'm assuming that's gross? Netto being after taxes?) If so that's very low and I'm sad to see that... Yeah there's no way there going to pay me 10k PLN a month lol let alone my US income... Not enough to afford a condo, v8 German car, and a couple Polish girlfriends in Wroclaw =/ I'm starting to think that perhaps that sales manager job might have been BS.

Curious, any experience on sales/management/finance or other business professional jobs? Have you, or anyone you know, work as say a real estate person in PL, perhaps in investments? Or something like that??

Also, to the people (like Scottie and Szczerbaty) who lived/live in PL -

What towns/cities did you live in while working there?

And to Szczerbaty - the two apartments you had, did you rent those out as extra income or perhaps live in/share 1 and rent the other out? Congrats - home ownership is very difficult to attain especially in

Poland.

Lastly - 'To become this 1.5% more than American diploma is needed.'

Top 1.5% is pretty damn ambitious. Top 10-15% would be more realistic. Nonetheless, what would you recommend?

I heard that there are those who make 50k Euro gross a year in PL with an MBA from a top school like INSEAD, London School of Business, + 5-7 years experience and/or connections... Is that something along the lines you were thinking of?

Off-Topic / What's your connection with Poland? Penpals. [554]

Merged: PL People in the Midwest

Hello, I wanted to see if there's other Poles that also live in the Midwest area - especially Chicago. If so please introduce yourself and tell us a little about yourself. Things like:

1) Name - first name is fine.
2) What city/state are you from
3) Are you born in the US or abroad?
4) Do you speak Polish or any other languages?
5) What do you do for work, for fun, any hobbies/interests?
6) Anything else you want to say...

I'm Adrian. Born in Wroclaw in '88 and moved to Chicago with my family around '94-'95. I lived in Chicago, Fort Lauderdale/Miami, and Cincinnati since arriving in the US. I live in the northern suburbs of Chicago now once again after living in Cinci for 4 years, then Florida for 2, and then Cinci again for 1 year.There was actually a pretty big PL community in South Florida. There was a few PL people I met in Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky but very few and even fewer speak Polish.I speak English, Polish, and am pretty proficient in Spanish and Russian as well. I work as a sales rep within the healthcare industry. I like to travel, go to bars, snowmobiling, 4 wheeling, working on cars, etc.

Life / My experience in Poland 15 years ago as an American trying to live and work there. [167]

I found this website that offers a lot of info about salaries in PL - It's from a head hunter firm so I'd assume it's pretty accurate....

hays.pl/cs/groups/hays_common/documents/digitalasset/hays_465124.pdf

Seems like medical sales jobs, especially managers/directors, pays half decent. If I could find a job that paid me at least 10k PL a month (combo of salary, benefits, commission, etc.) I would move in a heartbeat. I'm pretty confident that this might happen sooner or later - I got two decent offers from my current employer to work abroad... ah if only they had a PL office = /

I'm going to contact this firm and see if anything happens.... Anyone have experience with these guys or any other recruiters?

And yes, the old politicians create a lot of red tape in PL. I was amazed at how much paperwork my parents had to go through to sell their house in Wroclaw. I think the neighborhood was called Krzyki (kind of freaky - literal translation means 'screams')

Life / My experience in Poland 15 years ago as an American trying to live and work there. [167]

How is it though that like even though in PL people don't make much but yet they seem to like get by. Not many seem to be like going hungry, without clothes, etc. and oftentimes they have even basic luxuries like a lower end German car, a flat screen TV, etc.

Are you really asking this question seriously?

In a way yes, it's more of a cultural question and on family/community dynamics I'd suppose. But in a way yes, I mean obviously if you don't make as much money you can't afford an IPad on say the median 2900 zl salary - that'd be essentially an entire month's salary. Yet, I have seen even people driving newer cars that cost say 12k EU yet they only make 10k EU and I know there's not nearly as much of a credit culture as in the West. I've even seen a couple guys with new Harleys even in my grandparents' little town (Oborniki Slaskie - about an hour outside of Wroclaw, small town maybe 10k 20k people) and I'm pretty sure they're 'middle class' just like most people there - getting by on perhaps 2k-2.5k ZL a month if they work locally, maybe 3k-3.5k if they're lucky or commute to and from Wroclaw.

If according to that chart, 2900 zl a month is the average salary ($966 a month) take out 20% for taxes and such that leaves you with 2,300 zl. Also, there's probably more people making 2900 zl in Warsaw than say a smaller city/town. Let's say that you make 2900 zl a month though - 2300 after taxes. Say you're paying even only 1000 zl a month for rent + utilities ($333 - this is probably a low estimate??) and another 600 zl a month for food and say another 600 zl for gas, transport, misc. expenses that's almost your entire salary - 100zl remains.. Maybe there's more dual income households now... Or maybe just more hand me downs, uncles/aunts/cousins help the youngins and not just the parents - I guess maybe since there's more a 'family' culture that lowers the burden of expenses. That's really more the question - like is it more typical to have a multigenerational household? Do other family members besides just parents help with the costs of a child like tuition, upbringing, toys, etc.

The experience I'm basing this on is mainly my family since I have everyone from lower middle class cousins that live in a rural area outside of Wroclaw to a wealthy uncle and aunt who have over 7 figures in assets and of course plenty of babcias, ciocias, etc. that live in the apartment blocks, a few own their own home, etc. I guess the poorer people can manage with a lower wage since food is cheap and they rent their place - usually an apartment in the Communist style 'bloki' and typically use public trans or have some older car like a Maluch or Fiat Cincuento (forgot how it's spelled, first car I learned how to drive - was basically a 50 horsepower lawnmower...)

I have noticed though that typically only the upper middle class are able to afford homes - the rest rent and home ownership is highly unlikely for them.

Well yes, $60k annually in PL is totally unrealistic at this point since that'd be 15k ZL a month. However, somewhere between 8k to 10k ZL a month I think would be pretty realisitc. In the U.S. I make a pretty average 'salary' in terms of the average American but rather high for my age and education (25 years old, recent college grad) - $18 an hour which is approx $38,000 a year (2100 hour work year - some overtime included). However, with commission it's easily another $20-$30k and that brings it to $58k-$68k. Also, health, dental, eye, life, tuition reimbursement is included which would be another 10k in benefits.

In Poland it appears that most medical device/pharma sales reps average 3500-4200 ZL salary in a larger city, and manager make much more - anywhere from 4000 to 8000 but I'll use the rep as an example since it's highly unlikely i'd be given a managerial position right away with a new employer. (Google pays their sales reps in Wroclaw about 3000 ZL a month + commission but theyre on the low end compared to a lot of other companies) Anyway, so 3500 ZL salary plus commission which is usually equal to salary, gives me a total of 7000 ZL a month. Still short of that 10000 ZL a month - that would be realistic for a manager, but not a regular rep unless they've been on the job already a few years and have a solid book of biz. Also, I typically always work a 2nd job or do odd jobs to make extra cash which in the US brings me an extra $8-10k a year now. I could do something similar in PL whether it's a quick construction job, helping with marketing, setting up a network, private tutoring, English lessons, start a business, etc.

So after doing some research, participating in this convo, and such, it looks like 7000ZL to 8000ZL would be a reality though with salary, commission, and making some extra side money....

Now, what kind of lifestyle could I expect on say 6500ZL-7000ZL a month (with a month every once in a while with an extra 1000zl here and there)? I would probably live with my grandparents at first but would end up renting an apartment. I am single and have no kids. Would I be able to afford renting a flat in downtown Wroclaw or a nicer area? Are the suburbs (ones that are 40km or less from city center) typically more expensive or cheaper than living in the city? Would I be able to afford driving a car and not have to take public trans? (I would probably bring my car over from the US or take my grandpa's Honda CRV turbodiesel). Would I have enough money left over for going out on the weekends?

And yes, in some cases having a Western degree hurts your chances from what I read. However, in many cases large corporations and the recruiters they hire only want those with a Western education. It depends on the company, the job, etc.

Thanks a ton for that link! That helps a lot... So it looks like I'm not too far off... (these are in Netto)

Financial Director 13000 (would def need an MBA + 3-5 years post-mba experience)
Sales Director 10000 - same as above

But there's a few here that don't require an MBA and are within my education and experience level:

Financial Controller - 5800
Key Account Manager - 5400

So it looks like my estimates aren't too far off. If I'm estimating say 7500 ZL a month and after tax (not sure what tax rate is - I'll say 23%) is 5800 net.. not much in dollars (that's only $1,933 a month...)

I'm guessing these positions and their respective earnings are including like everything together (median salary + commission for the sales type jobs, bonuses for the rest) since there's no way a key account manager would make 5800 ZL net salary + commission (typically commission is equal to anywhere from 50%-100%+ of salary - depending on the structure).. unless he/she is the best account executive in Warsaw or something..

Life / My experience in Poland 15 years ago as an American trying to live and work there. [167]

Thanks for the reply Monitor.

Wow I'm surprised there's so much home ownership. That was really shocking to read. I guess maybe it's because homes get passed down and also use to be much cheaper than they are now. The house I was born in probably wasn't worth much more than maybe $40-$70k back in the late 80s early 90s even though it was a nice two story home in a decent area. However, with the expansion of Wroclaw airport and a lot of development around the area, my parents sold the home around 2007 2008 for I believe 150k. If they would've waited till now they would've probably got 200-250k USD.

It amazes me though how expensive some real estate is in PL relative to peoples' earnings.

So it seems like if I could get 5300-5800 net I wouldn't have too bad of a lifestyle but i wouldn't live . It seems like such a small amount though when converted to dollars - $1933 a month... There's no way I'd really be able to save up money but I wouldn't be moving to PL for that. Also, this would be something I'd liek to do for 3 ears or soI'd probably live with roommates or with my grandparents' in their guest house to save on rent. They live in Oborniki Slaskie which is about the same distance as Sroda Slaska from Wroclaw, perhaps a tad closer. I also like the town of Trzebnica a lot and I have cousins that live in Prusice - more of a rural small town. Due to the crappy roads, it would take us about 45 min - 1 hour to get from Oborniki to Wroclaw. Still though, that's doable. I drive about 1.5 hours every as it is now to work and back and I have one of the shortest commutes out of the employees.

Oborniki Slaskie claim to fame - I believe the current President of PL was born there.

I could always wait a couple years till I'm in a place in my career and have an MBA and already work as a higher level manager. I do know that a lot of Western companies look for managers to send abroad and be the head of an operation. My current company offered to send me to Spain at $17 an hour but I really don't want to be a customer service manager lol. Although living in Madrid would be pretty awesome.

Life / My experience in Poland 15 years ago as an American trying to live and work there. [167]

yeah you're probably right... I was kind of going off an assumption.. maybe early 90s that could've been the price (probably closer to like 10k 20k even) but yes in the 80s i highly doubt it was worth much... regardless though, they made off pretty well when they sold their house in the 2000s because of all the development around Wroclaw airport. I believe the area is either called Zlotniki or Krzyki or something..

lol we still have some of our old ration cards. one of my friends memories as a kid was being in a pewex store lol and my grandma's boyfriend selling US dollars in front of it. Fortunately, my grandparents from my dads side were in the meat business back then and still are (along with a couple other small ventures - they have a lil deli/grocery store, a stand in the Wroclaw rynek where they sell meats, and a metal fabrication shop). So we were pretty lucky we didn't have to que for much as we could usually trade meat for stuff that we needed. My dad was a jeweler and he frequently went to East Germany to sell or trade his wares as he had connections in West Germany for stuff like jeans, vodka, cigs, and even cars. I was very very young since I was born in 1988 so I have barely any memories of Communism. From what it sounds like though they were pretty well off since a lot of people couldn't afford a new car or a 4 channel stereo with cd player a few years after Communism let alone during it. My dad said he was like the only person in Oborniki with AC DC and Black Sabbath albums lol. I do remember like when they'd buy stuff they'd have to carry a crap load of money as the currency was like almost worthless prior to the revaluation. We have a ton of that old money still laying around but I don't think it's worth anything - even the metal it's made of feels cheap lol.

By the way, do you live in Poland monitor?

USA, Canada / The history of Polish mafia in Chicago, Illinois [51]

The only Polish organized crime in the US that has any standing or recognition is probably going to be the Greenpoint Crew and Kielbasa Posse which are in NY...

In Chicago, there is no Polish mafia anymore. There might be a few guys that steal cars, sell drugs, white collar crime (real estate related), etc. together but no like mafia.

The closest thing to a PL mafia in Chicago would be either a group of guys like those I mentioned above. Also, the Almight GL's and Insane South Side Popes use to have a few Polish members back in the day...

Life / Polish people are the most ignorant people in the world! [331]

You're lucky you can hide behind your computer screen because if you said that Polish people are ignorant to me or any of my Polish brothers and sisters I'd rip your face off and wipe my ass with it..

Polish people aren't any more or less ignorant than other nationalities... Poland has been home to some of the most influential and intellectual people in the world - Marie Curie, Chopin, Pope John Paul II, Casimir Pulaski, Donald Tusk, Jan Matejko, and countless others. Poland has been at the forefront of medicine, science, mathematics, art, poetry, political science, and international business for hundreds of years - from the golden years of Poland when it was the 4th largest country in Europe and pushed back the Ottoman Empire, to the defeat of the Russians at the Battle of Vistula, to the reconstruction after WW2 which has allowed Poland to now have an economy roughly the same size as that of Sweden in terms of nominal GDP. There are now 2 Polish billionaires and thousands of Polish millionaires living in Poland and abroad.

Next time you belittle a country and its people why don't you first think of where you come from and the faults and hipocrocies of your own culture. Has there never been a thief, murderer, fascist, alcoholic, rapist, etc. where you come from?