History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

I don't want to provoke a mighty opponent myself, so please ask M-G about the role of Judenrat in the Nazi Germany...

-----

Uff... I am late, I know, but that's all your fault. 7 pages with references is not a small thing.

edit:


hm, there's that bit of history of the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland, starting in 1939...

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Um, a bit unexpected... don't want to be rude, but I am not your friend (yet, possibly). Actually, you irked me a lot with many of your comments, but, as I already said, I blame the media for (most) of it. I am not your enemy either, to make it clear.

Care to comment about my reservations re Yad Vashem list?

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


An indicator, yes. Rather roughly, and quite indirectly, indicating the actual situation. Not something that would back up your statement 'I am quoting documents and hard numbers, where's your data.' Innit :)

An indicator of the memory of the saviours being dear to the Jews, as well.

I tried to find out when it all started, and just popped into the Yad Vashem site:


Shortly, the real picture of who was saving Jews may wildly vary from what the list seems to suggest. What it says is only: 'These people applied or were recommended, and their applications met our requirements'.

---------------------


Are you sure about it? The Kristallnacht happened less than a year before, and it was the first such a 'big' pogrom. Hitler was furious when he learned about it, because he wanted to stay palatable to the West up until the very beginning of the war. Even if, then how being happy that the allegedly lesser evil happens does justify cooperation with the invaders against their fellow countrymen? Must've been some other reason.

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Um, right. I referred to 'one reason is clear'. Which it is not. This blinded me to the rest of the post.

So you suggest it was a result of bad treatment by the Poles before the war, right? Only it goes beyond the scope '1939-1944', which we are discussing here, by your decree :)

Couldn't it be a result of simply pro-soviet sympathies among those Jews, what do you think?

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]

Not adventurous is coward to me :)

You're wrong. As tourists, Poles tend to try everything they can grab, and import quite a lot of it. Good things, I mean. Italian food, Chinese, Hungarian, French last but not least. Not English. And it's not because traditional Polish cuisine is boring, it's a mix of whatever has ever had a chance of being tasted, and passed the test.


:) I've been living in Poland most of my life, which is quite long. I know Polish people. I don't recall a single reaction like 'nah, this is some foreign sh1t, I am not eating it'. Quite to the contrary. And this approach is traditional, that's why Polish kitchen is so rich.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


And what country is that?

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


And potatoes were virtually unknown in Poland before 17th century, maybe. Now try and convince me that potato is not a typical Polish staple food, known, loved, and eaten in variety of forms. You want Poles to invent their own vegs and animals if they want to call it Polish cuisine? In 966, exactly, as this is the official birth date of Poland?

I don't care were the Polish kitchen originated. On the contrary, I am trying to prove that you are wrong saying that Poles stick to their parochial, limited tradition. Traditionally, they don't. Habitually, neither - but they like good food, so English cafe is no option.


Except that Polish food comes from every corner of the world, as you've just stated.


Sush is superficial in her opinions. It's not important if the place is exotic, the point is whether they make good food. In London, when I ask a Brit about a good kebab, he shows me the nearest one. I go there, and meat is hard, vegs stink, and chips are flaccid excuses. A Pole will tell me straight away 'just don't go over there. There's a good one in Colindale'. Means he's been there, eaten that, and he's tried lots of places around, and has an opinion based on research. Because Poles, we love to eat... Good food.


:)


Well... like schabowy? Zrazy? Mielony? Bitki? Pyzy z mięsem? Rosół? Wędliny of all sorts? :) Do you know how much of a pig is left after a Polish butcher finishes with it? Brits throw away half of it.

And what is wrong with inventiveness as applied to such a boring raw material as flour, I don't really understand.


And tripe is dog food, I know. Ever tried? French eat frogs, and this is haute couture, Poles eat calf's brains, a delicacy, and this is barbaric. Oh, unimaginative, you say. Boring. Like raw beef, or something. Nutria sausage, like.


You want a list of Polish soups? Broths? Meat dishes? Fish, even if fish are not as easy to find in Poland as they are in the UK? Dumplings, cakes, food based on cheese, flour(yes), potato? How many mushrooms, as a Brit, do you know, and how do you use them?

Narrow sphere. The most popular polish food can give you variety for weeks, breakfast, dinner, and supper. And then you can repeat it with variants, and then comes regional food, and you're busy till Christmas.


Their, definitely. Much of it imported, accepted, modified, and beloved. Don't tell me that Poles are unadventurous as it comes to food. The thing is, though, that the adventure is supposed to be exciting. Not like all-day-breakfast, or fish and chips. However good the latter may be, in places.

You're just baiting me, aren't you?

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]

Celts just won't give up, eh? :)


*sigh* If you look at it this way, Poles are not Polish but Ethiopian, or something.


Viennese, Bielorussian, Lithuanian, Italian, Russian, to quote one Seanus, all ours... hold on, we've never owned Italy! You're wrong!


EVEN in the UK? That's the point, Seanus. England is a culinary desert, nothing to be found here. And you have to eat.


Rubbish, basically. Chicken tikka masala, fish and chips, all-day-breakfast. Tea with milk. Half-baked bread you can't spread butter on. Shepherds pie. Beef steak, OMG, the peak of English inventiveness, three kinds of it... Cakes, disaster. Simple thing, scrambled eggs, and they can't make it edible. I remember one English Best Chef on TV: 'and don't forget to pour milk in time, so that...' Grotesque.

I was a waiter for a couple of months, in a hotel. There were two restaurant lounges, one to feed people, and one for the English. They paid £200-300 per night, and every morning came down for breakfast: baked beans, two rashes of burnt bacon, one small 'sausage', hash browns, grilled tomato, two toasts, jam, scrambled eggs English style. Day in day out, for two weeks. Beans, 'sausage', hash browns, toasts, jam, tomato, eggs. There was a choice of toasts, I admit: white or brown bread, well burned or just warm, or medium.

Good biscuits, though. Beer... I am not a typical Pole, I love ales. Brits don't, Brits prefer Ozzie p1ss, and second class lagers like Stella. Processed meat is not bad, only ridiculously expensive. Stilton is Ok, even if overdone. Some local cheeses are fine, even if half matured. Cornish pasties, yes, but then you'll say it's just pierogi, so I have no choice but to like it. If you know about baked pierogi, that is :)

What is English food? English food is sport. You remember Pepper contra Tomato? Two famous chefs get a celebrity each, and 20 minutes to make a three course meal, while chatting entertainingly. And then the public votes, who won. Does anything strike you as odd in this? Like, something missing, as regards food? Like eating, to be more precise? Like, to put it blunt, allowing the voters to possibly have a sniff, or, God forbid, a lick?

English have no idea, what food is. And what for.


Well, you can put pierogi in oil, of course... You sure you live in Gliwice, not Greenpoint? :)

Just don't say a word about fat and salt. Just try słonina z beczki, with bread. Bread, I mean. Or sadło... Jesus Christ, when did I have a slice of sadło... Suet. I bet you feed it to dogs.


Well... here I have to admit you are quite right, basically. With one small reservation, that they are three distinctly different kinds of meal. The thing is, you have to have something like three active taste buds to discern the differences...

:)


Zrazy zawijane po warszawsku? There are two different dishes called zrazy, as far as I know. In Gliwice... well, it's not Silesia. There's something called 'rolady', similar to zrazy zawijane, but different stuffing. Good thing, mind.


Could be. They are good, and simple. I never said Poles stick to their food. You know bliny ze śmietaną? Delicious. Only you need soured milk to make them...


All true, as I trust you about Scottish food, never seen. Except Scotch Broth by Heinz, good stuff, actually. But I bet Scotland doesn't have such a variety of herring meals. Never had to improvise on poor choice of fish. If you call herring fish at all, we don't.


Good. Now, what would that be, Seanus? :)

Well, possibly duck in plum sauce... ryba po grecku... ryba po żydowsku... ciasto francuskie... ruskie pierogi... Quite lot, come to think of it. Carp no, carp was brought by the Benedictines.

Sugar! Beetroot sugar, Poles invented beetroot sugar! SEE?

Some time ago I was served pizza made by pure blood Italians, in an Italian restaurant owned and managed by a pure blood Italian, and I was kinda special guest. I ate almost all of it (12 inch pizza, but thin), reasons being:

1. I was kinda special guest, so it would be impolite to just nib at it and have a smoke.
2. I was hungry like a stray dog.
3. Ketchup was within easy reach.
4. The knife was serrated.

Don't tell me about adventures.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


He's a jerk...


Hm? Why?


Did I mention communism here... ?


Beef steak is 'typical English', at least for a typical Pole. I must admit I never tried Shepherds Pie as made properly at home. Whatever I ever got in the supermarket is simply lame. You can eat it (with ketchup), you are happy to forget the experience.


Phh, and I thought you might have had some basic culinary sense, you Scots. 'Every bit as good', scrambled eggs with milk??? I am not going to Scotland. Nope.


Yeah, porridge, thank you very much. Buckwheat rings a bell? I had to check in the dictionary, if you even have all words needed to name the cereals. Well, you do. English has more than a million words, like sitar, or sitatunga. The point is...

Polish breakfast may not be diverse, if you eat it in the same family every day all year round. People happen to be lazy. Don't make me enumerate what can be eaten for breakfast in Poland, please.


ROTFL :)) Carve it in stone, 100 times, I may try and start considering the option of believing you actually mean it.

Or maybe you refer to 'English' Indian food? Handful of rice, four spoons of spice? Topped.


Right. Still quite good. A move in the right direction.


Poles are quite, ehem, solid in posture. No hope to compete with the English, though...

Not Gordon's, I know the lingo already. Never eaten his produce, easy to guess, but what's the point?


I am a bit surprised. Gliwice is not Silesia as such, on the streets you hear mostly Lvovian wail...

Rolady po żydowsku? It's a traditional Silesian dish, no Jews involved. Rolady, modro kapusta, kluski ślonskie. So maybe you know gumiklouzy as well? Curiouser and curiouser...


Damn, you're right. So am I, and proud of it.


Definitely. I didn't even know what haddock was, until I came to London. And I found it in the dictionary, and I still didn't know. Now cod is a fish, everybody knows that. Ling... ? You're confabulating, aren't you? Scrapping the bottom, and with no success, so inventing thingies? Ling doesn't even sound like fish, I expected better of you.

Poser.


Yeah, Ok. Cans... But you're right, I should've done that.


Fkin fabulous! :) But duck is Polish anyway. A bit difficult to cook, but quite widely used in traditional Polish kitchen. Often with cranberries - now with that you Brits made me smile with sympathy :)


Now what can you do 500km from the sea? You have to do with freshwater fish, and depend on cooking talents to make something eatable out of it. With carp, you prepare it the day before, salt it slightly, and (important) cover it with sliced onion, and put in the fridge for the night. Next day you throw the onion away, and use the fish how-ever you want.

Ever tried pstrąg na maśle? Extremely simple (with some tricks), fast, delicious.


Rubbish. Poland was beet-sugar power since the dawn of history, till the night of communism. We helped the poor Africans with free sugar and free tanks, well known fact.

Now you are being unnecessarily cruel, Seanus...


Ketchup might be American, but you haven't tried my aunt's improvisation on the topic. Pure jazz.

Ketchup, for a Pole... you know Hitch Hiker's Guide to Galaxy? For a Pole, especially in England, ketchup is like a towel. You can eat EVERYTHING with it. Everything you can get in England, that is.


Right you are. Gliwice is a Little Kraków. Upper Silesia as a whole is a matter-of-fact area, acquired taste, although it's changing now a bit.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]

@Amathyst, @shush....

-------------------------------


Says volumes about your taste :)

But you might be right, actually. Restaurants are not Polish forte. You get good food at friend's.

Come to think of it, I remember only a few places in Poland, where I was really happy with what they served. For money, I mean. Private occasions are a completely different story.

Um, sorry. I missed them 8(eight) dishes. Makes how many in total? Twenty?

Scouse is mostly like eintopf, as far as I know. Very local, extremely unregulated. Local to poor regions, that is. Kedgery, now this I never heard of... Whatever, I don't suspect I'd miss any of them in Poland, sorry. Or in Greece. Or Spain. Or Lithuania. Or Mexico. Did I miss any place? Yeah, i did. Like, loads of bags of places.

Sunday Lunch... :)) The name says it, doesn't it? You have one dish especially for Sundays. One. No need for fancy names, everybody knows what it is. The Sunday Lunch In It's Full Glory! :)

There is a special culinary occasion in Poland, the Christmas Eve. In every family this supper is sacrosanct, the menu changes hardly ever, it's like a bonding thing. 12 dishes, mostly, each for every apostle. Yet when you meet somebody from another region, and the conversation wanders to customs and food, then the common series of questions is: what soup for Wigilia? how fish? sweets, what kind? how interesting... :)


Yeah, CAMRA, the desperate effort. Now get out of the Tube anywhere in Central London, and try to find a pub serving ales. I am a polite person, so I'd rather not just pop in and out without getting a pint, thus my first ale, most often, has to humbly put up with residuals of all sorts of sorry lagers. Just because they were there first. Outrageous.

Shame, really. Yes, 1000s mini breweries, but struggling more and more. The Irish at least stick to the Guinness like their very personal existence depended on it.


That's my point exactly. You have a handful of Chefs, and a couple of Fashionable Fkin Most Expensive Restaurants, we have food. You enjoy watching cooks on TV, munching stinking takeaway, we go use the kitchen.


:) I am not a racist, actually. I believe that a genetically 100% English person, raised in a proper culinary environment, can enjoy food as any other human. You have to start early, though, like maybe 6 months of age.

Most Poles do not have to try anything else than Polish kitchen, and be utterly happy. Polish kitchen is both eclectic and quite distinctively Polish. The English boast of loving tikka masala, so very worldly of them, but it takes a Polish peasant woman to show them how to make a tasty food of it. And then they shut up and start nagging about maybe we could, you know, like marry, or what, whadya think.

------------------------------------------


You must be living on top of Polish restaurant. Try to move to Crystal Palace and find a decent bread, not to mention some sausage.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


From life. I've been here for 6 years, I met Poles from all sorts of backgrounds, most of them simple folks, admittedly. And I was surprised myself how they react to what can be eaten here, whoa, eyes wide open. And I wasn't surprised when they reverted to potatoes and home brewed pork, retaining only selected dishes and places from 'the unmatched variety of London cuisine'. Selected like already mentioned kebab in Colindale, or Chinese in the nearby Edgware.

Tourists, as we already agreed, take it as a point of honour to bring something new back home, and glory be. Migrants, they eat to survive.


Wrong, Seanus. Takes a long time to convince you, but I have seen it. The point is, and I repeat it, experimenting is not the same as worshipping any abortive attempt at cooking. Taste kicks in.


Yeah, I know, I've seen it, and I witnessed the ecstasy. How inventive. Unbelievingly imaginative. Just think of it, you can dip a strip of toast in soft boiled egg, instead of eating them in turns.

Sorry, Seanus. This kind of experimentation is done by toddlers in Poland, and possibly all over the world. Nobody denies them the simple pleasure, and some people keep the habit till they die, but to make The Traditional National Dish out of it... :)))


And justly so. Skipping breakfast is a rather new invention in Poland. Sadly, it is spreading.

(i don't eat breakfasts too :/ )


'Beef burger' is crap everywhere. As for Polish sausages, your info is outdated. I remember pasztetowa stuffed (proverbially) with toilet paper, but this was the reality of gierkowszczyzna. Same as krakowska full of 'fish flour'. Nowadays even factory made, plastic wrapped Polish sausages are way ahead of British productions.

To put it in a proper perspective, sausages are made from meat that can't be used in a better way. Junk food, actually, second class. Now to make it good, it takes skill.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]

I just can't believe you all put up for so long with my chauvinist rant :) Moderators included.


Well, yeah. My cousin met him on the plane and she says he's quite a nice guy really, accessible and kind, polite and helpful. What I most don't like about him, is that I go to a pub, and the first question is 'where you from?', of course. Um, Poland. Oh yeah! Putsianovsky!

Well. Why not, say, Chopin? Or Lem? Or Kubica, at least.

Ok, it was some 3 years ago. Still, I don't like him.


Seen them, had no courage after other experiences. But Ok, thanks.


And cheap. Still, they deserve some respect. As milk does.


That was spinach, Seanus :) You getting patriotic, or what? :)


hahaha. Very funny.

Anyway. You know the phrase 'the salt of the earth'? Or 'with a pinch of salt'? Salt might be un-PC and even poisonous in big quantities, but, and many reasonable medicine doctors will agree with it, food should give you pleasure, then it is the most healthy. A pinch of slat makes a whole lot of difference.


Exactly, kluski ślonskie. Or ślónskie, actually. Or śloonskie, as the modern silesian orthography puts it.

So you don't know gumiklouzy. Good. There must be something about Poland that one Brit doesn't know :)


Liar. There's not so many fish in the world, Seanus. Stands to reason.


You Scotts, possibly. I don't argue, never been further north than Brumagem.

Oh, Scotch Eggs, good idea, I approve. Just add some pepper and salt. Or ketchup. But the idea is good, kudos.


Exactly. Mostly in the East, so I was a bit surprised to find out that this is a well known English condiment. Well done.


Aah, now you talkin. Trout fried on butter. Get yourself a fresh trout, preferably gutted already. I mean, guts out, head off. All fins and skin stays. Don't wash it, except a very symbolic rinse to ritually satisfy your European sense of hygiene, as the slime adds to flavour, strange but true. Smear it generously with ground black pepper inside. Roll it in flour, so that you can't see the skin. Heat up cleared(*) butter, fry the trout on it, 5 mins one side, turn over, 3 mins the other side (if I remember well, but I'd say it's 80% exact. 85% even). Spray with lemon juice (well, a slice of lemon, hover over the fish, squeeze, you know it), serve with Polish bread, preferably mixed wheat-rye. Use fork. Well.

(*) Indians know it too. Put your butter in a convenient pot, heat it gently until it melts, and continue heating, rather gently. You'll see some froth on the surface, skim it and throw it away as soon as it appears, until it doesn't show any more. On the bottom you'll see that white stuff, slimy-like by appearance. Pour the butter into another container, leaving the white stuff from the bottom, it's rubbish. Now you have cleared butter. It keeps long even without refrigerating, and you can use it for frying without fear of heart-attack. It doesn't burn easily, cos you threw away that white stuff and the foam.

Cleared butter is important here, or you won't be able to fry your trout properly.

Enjoy. And report.

oh, I can't advise you on what to wash it down with, except that it should be something dry and delicate.

EDIT: SHALLOW fry.


You don't [b]have[/] to rub my nose in it, do you? Anyways, Internet if full of sh1t, right.

Poland was, however, a sugar power, this can't be denied.


Yeah, yeah...


Well. Seems to me, sometimes you do forget you are a stranger in a strange land, don't you? :)

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


And I live in London, never ever heard of it. So much for the English eagerly using their limitless opportunities to enrich their cuisine :)


Seanus, just face the walk, and put it straight, no evasive maneuvers any more: Do You, The Scottish People, Mix MILK Into Your Scrambled Eggs, Or Not?!


So why didn't you tell this to my mother then, smart guy?! Half the breakfasts of my childhood were ruined by this... well,, let me put it mildly: **** **** ****** of a ****.

Note the dot at the end. NO exclamation marks!!

And I hate porridge too.


'Hicks'. This is a Varsovian perspective. They are natives, legitimate and hereditary, ancient and proud, and no Warsaw prick will tell them how to speak!

BTW, it's 'kaj żeś jest' :) Impressed, anyway.


So you're a hacker too... operating from a foreign IP...


haha. So now this is my fault that an innocent Polish child's little brains got brutally scarred by a treacherous foreigner. Rob Roy, though. Ivanhoe, I saw it later on TV, and the author's name was in small print. And we were galloping around the yard, yelling: Ajwenhoooe, Ajwenhoooe, dadamdamdam tamtamdamdam, Ajwenhoooe. Damn Scotts.


Whiner. Typical Polish whining husband. That's what being a husband is about, to be checked up on. The sooner you learn it, the sooner you'll be happy. When she stops checking, now then you're in trouble...


Now this IS an experimentation. Could be good, no argument here.


yeah. I bet you have a huge protective pendant with Holy Mary, dangling from your neck. Makes wonders.

Gun-toting fugitive hacker... a cyclist... the picture starts to fill up...

Sierakowice - my friend lived somewhere there. They bred rabbits, I smuggled them during the martial law in a backpack, 'siekiera motyka' style. And we made booze from sugar, happy days... Not actually your typical moonshine, we had glass apparatus with a rectification column, fully controlled distillation, then potato slices and activated coal, 96% alcohol as end result. Needed hell of a lot of patience...


Slime, I said :) Milk protein, most probably.


Oh, this was trippled? My memory isn't what it was...

Now what it was, then...


You're Scottish... I have my little private theory, that the melody of the language expresses the nation's character. Thus Scots are to English like Silesians are to Poles, and quite a similar mentalities, allowing for all differences. You are living in a border zone, which is the whole Silesia now, and I suppose you might feel a little bit less at home somewhere else, although not necessarily unhappy...

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


no comments...


SHE didn't eat it! She made ME to!


Centusie. Who cares.


Yeah, right. No worries, I am not a snitch. Un-Polish thing, snitching.


Damn cultural invasion. Like if we didn't have Sienkiewicz.


Wow... you should chain her up to the kitchen table, and put more locks on the door. She's a treasure, man.

Me, happily divorced :)

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


Legacy of communism. Fallen standards. And you better let me follow my ideals.


You naughty boy, you.


I cheated. Those pre-marital courses, you know? The priest thundered that who doesn't attend the Mass every Sunday, he's not a true Catholic. I always respected them priests.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


You Wiccan, or what? Not that I have anything against them. ****** sanctimonious *****.


I know you know. You are just testing my proverbial Polish patience.


You bet. Just apply your non-confrontational style, and you can ask any question. Like: do innocent babies go to Hell, and why?

I'd not advise you to ask if they have underwear under the robe. I never asked.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will. Wiccan Rede. A new religion re-born in England, somewhere in 1950ies. They do magic...


so they fkn say...


just don't

:))

although I suspect you'd be disappointed.


Choose a younger one, to be on the safe side. When gently pressed, they appear quite realistic, and, like, a bit lost...

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


Tsk, tsk.. bashing poor priests...

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]

but you need somebody to confess to... Stands to reason.

Senses are bad. Spirit is the thing.

Seems I am getting better in it...

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


That's the problem exactly... sincerity *sigh*


Free-thinker, huh? You better speak to that priest soon. Still not too late, but beware.


trolling... shush...

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


No, it isn't. Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, Humility. No Sincerity.


Free-thinking is a sin against the Holy Spirit, and as such, unforgivable. Please repent...

Let me quote the Source: Pride (Latin, superbia), or hubris, is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise.

See? REPENT!!!


shhh... ushhh...


Romans. How can you properly interpret the Holy Writ without being properly educated first? It's a difficult text.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


You think I took it off the top of my head? Wiki, copy&paste. Official list of Virtues.

REPENT!!!


...

you're in deep sh1t, bro... don't listen to those voices... I am being dead serious now... honest...


So why did you abandon the path? Such a promising young man.

It' still not too late, have hope.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


Who you taking me for? There was a proper table, rows and columns, all black on white. Legit, like.


Good boy. I said, there's hope still :)


Well done!

Now close the Book... and call that priest.

Language / Your perception of the Polish accent [145]


Now this is another arrogant British myth!

Although, in the spirit of the traditional Polish tolerance, I must reluctantly admit that this particular one is somehow firmly rooted in reality. The variety of British accents, or just the English accents, is amazing. I can't always locate the speaker on the map, but the differences are quite easy to hear. And then there's the Eton accent, right? One bloody school...

In Poland less so. But:
1. It was different only decades ago. People relocated a lot in the last 70 years, which resulted in melting regional accents, and then the TV added to it. And there was a cultural pressure too, speaking with accent suggested lack of education.

2. It's the question of exposure. You can hear the difference between a Silesian and a Varsovian, I can, sometimes, recognize people from Chorzów, Ruda Ślaska, Podlesie - if they come from the native families, of course, and speak Silesian.

3. There are more distinct accents in Poland, than you mention. Wrocław (Lwów, that is), Poznań, Warsaw, Kraków, £ódź, lubelskie, Podlasie, Podhale, Silesia, Kaszuby are (were) unmistakable, and there are at least traces of them still in usage. Well, unmistakable... some of the differences not as pronounced as the English wild experimentations, but they were there.

Once I heard a 'street interview' from Toruń, on the radio. They were speaking standard Polish, but the sound of it was an incessant, monotonous rattle, I actually needed a couple of seconds to replaytherecordinginmyheadandparseit. It wasn't a slur, pronunciation quite clear, luckily, but the speed of it and lack of melody...

In general, you are right tho. The English can't speak proper English at all :) Except for the Queen. But she is German, innit. Pedantic.

Language / Your perception of the Polish accent [145]


And about half of Poland has no native speakers at all


To each his own. I'd rather appreciate some redundancy, which would make up for ambient noise and such. I wouldn't say that producing three difficult vowels instead of one simple is sloppy.

With the speed of Polish you exaggerated a bit. Maybe it sounds like that to you.


Looks plausible, but somehow doesn't prove in reality. USA is a huge country, and US English was constantly under pressure of all European languages, yet they say the Americans have preserved the archaic English pronunciation.

I have another theory about the accents. English is rather vowel-oriented, as compared to Polish, and vowels are easier to shift than consonants (or more difficult to keep in place). You can say 'better' or 'be'er' with glottal stop, of course, but it's still quite easy to extrapolate. Now compare 'like' and 'lake' in various accents, out of context, and you are in trouble. At least I am, not being as finely tuned to local nuances.

Language / Your perception of the Polish accent [145]


Now that's unfair, the Queen is quite rich in years, and this slows down everybody.

As for your 'better accent', I am of mixed feelings. On one hand I'd sustain the general theoretical notion of redundancy, even if it's slightly slowing the communication, on the other hand I actually prefer the sharpish, distinctive Glasvegian warble. The 'proper English' sounds gayish to me, but it's just a personal preference.

On the third hand... I love to listen to the sing-song, slow, relaxed accents of Eastern Poland... So it's not about speed for me.

The US case you explained sagely. So it's not the simple geography, rather.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


It is not recommended, but: :)

Hope you'll read it before I am banished to random.


Religion, nationality, ideology is irrational per se, it's all about beliefs. People are rarely rational, and we have to live with it. As long as it stays on the verbal level, no actual harm is done, and that's what we get on the Net. The side-effect is, that there is some chance of finding some mutual understanding, as long as we talk.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


You are the most dangerous kind of free-thinkers. You have read the Bible and you abuse it's contents to prove your point without shame at all. Such are usually well versed, and can quote The Writ from memory, to lead the simple folk astray. One priest told me so. Nuff said, yeah.


Actually, I wouldn't trust the Bible. Christianity is really quite a difficult religion, so to make it accessible to common folk one has to make some concessions, hoping that God will look in your heart and appreciate the intentions, not to mention the result. Protestantism was one of such attempts, and with good reasons, and with results not too bad, but where Catholicism stayed strong it's equally valid now. It doesn't really matter what the Bible literally says. You should learn as much as possible about the God, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and with sincerity follow your heart. I'd say devotion, putting aside all the funny connotations, is the only way to God. Just try to do your best, and the Loving Father will appreciate and accept. One of the methods is to go to church every Sunday, and listen to the priests. Blessed be those of small spirit, as their will be the Kingdom of Heaven. Loose translation.

To make it clear, just in case: I am not a Catholic. I'm not sure you would want to know what I am.

Is it off-topic or not?


Replies like 'yeah'. I didn't know then, that the post will grow.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]


Well... I do! :) Only Catholicism is not based on the Bible solely, but on the thoughts of Fathers of Church. They somehow knew that the Book is only an eclectic, huge hint at the Truth of Faith, and tried to suck the essence out of it.

And, between us, it all boils down to that when you stand before the Judge, then you are solely responsible for your deeds and negligence. So it's Church and priest for the simpler folk, but if you are capable of independent thought, then the personal responsibility grows accordingly. Thus as a good Catholic you complain stubbornly about a greedy priest to his bishop, but you do not make a tabloid news out of it. And such. Catholicism is not so simplistic, as it appears to outsiders.


How come? it's just an exchange of private opinions of two particular people, on a particular topic. No society involved, actually, and Poland only loosely related.


You always end up with an artificial product, God's wisdom is not available to you.


Deep? this is some talmudic hocus-pocus, Seanus, who cares about it? :) Do they really want to find the answer to Faith, Life, and Everything? Through logical argumentation on TV? It's a show, PR, propaganda.

Life / SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT POLAND AND POLISH SOCIETY [297]

I've been away for a while, as you may have noticed...


I can see it, I just don't give a damn, actually. So much, that I don't even care if this is a basic problem or not. I could have a go at it, I used to do such things, but it's mainly a scholastic exercise for me.

My point is, that you don't find God by splitting the hair over some old eclectic text re-translated over several languages. That discussion on TV was, for me, a typical fundie exercise on faith, hard to imagine in Europe. You think the first Christians, those dining with lions, cared that much about theology? Yes, I know they started to bicker early on, but for me The Sermon on the Hill is probably all that most Christians need to know.


No, it's just to state that you identify with it. More or less strongly. Today I was asked by a Hindu, if I am a Catholic. Well, why not, I am. I am not going to explain him the depths and shallows of Faith, as much as I can see of them, only because he needed to put a label on me.


But what's the problem, actually? Most of our beliefs are conditioning-based. I've never met a person doubting everything that was given them to believe since early childhood. Like that the force of gravity is inversely proportional to distance squared. God manifests in Three Persons? Fine. Induction versus whatever it was? Whatever.

Beware of applying reason to faith. You'll abuse both.