Life / Poles are not racist [873]

The point is, if no third world person would come into Poland, there would be no racism to speak about in Poland.

But if you imported 1 million africans to Poland, there would be an OUTBREAK of racism, and you would see dozens of anti-racist organisations pop up like mushrooms in the springtime. There would be debates in schools, in the government. There would be anti-racist protests, marches, concerts and so on. Millions of Zloty would have to be allocated for government programs to stem this sudden outbreak of racism, and a new minister of diversity would have to be elected, along with his or her's own cabinet of little workers.

There would be a whole INDUSTRY of anti-racism activities going on 24/7....

So let's see...no coloured people in Poland = No racism, lot's of coloured people in Poland = Lot's of racism!

I know, I know, but then we would not have "diversity", like kebabstores or different music, or, or....eh...."diversity"...but isn't that a low price to pay for not having racism??

So how do you stop racism? Stop importing people of colour to an european nation. (For those of you who will complain about inbreeding, we have lot's of european countries to mix with!).

Dariusz

Life / Poles are not racist [873]

SeanBM; Hmmm...I'm actually not really clear on what you meant by that last statement...care to elaborate? (I would like to reply...)

Dariusz

Life / Poles are not racist [873]

SeanBM;

I actually had to do an extra security check in the army, because my father had a polish passport. I got a pretty good and expensive education from them, but got stuck mowing the lawn outside the officers quarters for a whole month, before I finally got to talk to the intelligence officer, and tell him my dad being Polish really didn't pose a threat to the norwegian national security....so they let me do my assignment. But what if I was lying, and was a spy? They did give me access to some secret material. Anyhow...

Who imports a million immigrants? Germany, England, France, Holland, Spain, Sweden to mention some. Norway is such a small country, but if we weren't I promise you we would have our own million too. By 2050, Oslo will have 50% non-norwegians. Can you say c**p?

We should go to North Korea and check it out! See how they treat us. And bring a photo of a Barrack Obama to show them.

Dariusz

Life / Feeling ashamed of my Polish heritage. [237]

I have to say, half of the negative comments about poland/polish life could just as well be exchanged with "norway". A horrendous tax-system, incompetent state workers, bad roads, no infrastructure, 30 year old trains, old people lying dead in their apartments for moths before anyone noticing, everything useful, like cars/motorcycles costing twice as much as in neighbouring sweden, really stupid politicians who want to control every aspect of your life from what you eat to when you have to go home from the pub..

Poland has the same problems as any other country. Of course, since many of us know the polish system pretty good, it's easy to bash it, but just ask any other european about his government and general status of their country, and they will repeat most of what you say...in one form or another. The difference is that Poland is actually getting better, while things in Norway are getting worse....

Dariusz

Life / Feeling ashamed of my Polish heritage. [237]

Beelzebub; where in Poland do you live? I come from the Katowice area, and all the people I met there are cheery, positive, hard working and never really complain. In case they do, I haven't heard it yet. Everytime I visit, I see new malls, new roads, new buildings coming up. I see the new skyscrapers coming up over the whole of Poland, like the one in Sopot, I see europe opening up itself for financial rewards through hard work and business opportunities. I have several polish friends here in Norway who actually dream of moving back home and getting a better start, thanks to the money they saved up while working abroad. A couple of them have started building houses and establishing business connections...I have to say, from my personal perspective, I haven't really felt that "the world is coming to an end", feeling from any of them. Sure, the system isn't perfect, but it's getting there. Every month I read good news from Poland.

Maybe a polish man hurt you, and you now feel a little angry at him because he was polish? Maybe you just don't get the polish "mentality" of saying one thing, but meaning another? My wife is polish, grew up most of her life in the states, and is with me here in Norway now. The norwegian mentality is quite different from the states, she does not understand irony, which is HUGE in norway, so we've had quite a few funny moments...mostly with her as the victim...but all in good spirit...she doesn't get upset or question norwegian people because of that. If I'm really wrong here....sorry!

Dariusz

Life / Racism in Poland - the future [441]

MareGaea, I'm more happy that you haven't been around that much.

Everything "UsefullIdiot", said in his above post is actually true. Not true in the sense that he made it up and says it's true, but true in the sense that he/I can actually prove what he said with links, pictures and history books. What's up with bashing that? Are you afraid of the truth?

Dariusz

Life / Racism in Poland - the future [441]

I'd rather have one post that tells the truth, than ten from you, telling us that jewish people DON'T control the world of finance and that we should open our borders to all the people of the world...tell me again of this "multicultural paradise" that we should look to? Which country has achieved it? Give me some examples please.

About the catholic priests...there is no punisment strong enough for these sick bastards.

I'm somewhat happy that Poland is in the EU, since we can take part in hightening our living standards and improve our relationship with Europe on so many important fields. But I'm also scared that Poland will adopt the "open border" policy when we reach a certain level of financial wealth. This will attract millions of asylum seekers who will make Poland into England or France and ruin our protected way of life. I know there is lot's of crime in Poland, but the crime the immigrants take with them is so violent, there is no comparison. The cost will be tremendous, not only to our state, but mostly to the polish people who will have to be on the front line, experiencing it on a everyday basis.

Dariusz

Life / Racism in Poland - the future [441]

Darun, you are a perfect example of what "multiculturalism" should be! Exchanging knowledge and visiting other countries in effort, not only for yourself and your education, but also to show your own culture off to the people you are visiting. This is perfect in my eyes.

As you said, the other side is where swarms of third world immigrants come to "occupy" and "settle", with their religions and customs, not concerned with "integrating", more than knowing how to ask for their rights. Then they shut the door and that's it.

So, don't worry AT ALL!! I would welcome you, either if you were african, jewish or from Mars, if you came with good intentions, an open mind and a smile.

I love looking at travel programs, history programs and everything that has to do with culture and history from around the world. I love travelling to these places, and experiencing it! I've been to Africa, I've been to Asia, and I've been to America. It was truly fantastic experiences. And I've met some great people too.

But again, that is how you can experience our difference, our cultures and our societies. But if everyone just moves around and creates one big grey mass, where everyone looks the same, talks the same and act the same, that would be the biggest tragedy of all. And that's what the left side wishes, in their weird fanaticism....how can you have multiculturalism if everywhere you go it looks the same? Like it does in Paris, London and Amsterdam? (On the streets that is..the landmarks are there to tell you differently, but not much else...).

Dariusz

Life / Racism in Poland - the future [441]


Yes, thank you, I would.

Here in Norway we have somali gangs raping and beating up norwegians. We have pakistani gangs shooting with machine guns in crowded down shopping districts and selling drugs on the streets. We have vietnamese gangs growing narcotics on huge farms outside the cities. We have albanian mafia controlling big parts of the restaurant business with money laundring and illegal gambling/prostitution rings. The biggest welfare scandal, the biggest tax-fraud scandal, the biggest rape scandal, the biggest immigration organization scandal...they all involved third world immigrants, and have cost Norway BILLIONS of Euro's. Not to talk about all the norwegian people who have suffered because of these actions that I mentioned.

Since polish people constitute for the biggest influx of people coming to Norway the last 10 years, where are all the stories about "polish gangs"? Haven't read about them..maybe they managed to stay out of the press? Where are all the victims of polish rape? Where is the enormous polish tax-scandal? We had a pakistani one last year, where thousands of taxidrivers swindled over 100 million euro's from our system and put it in luxury homes in Pakistan. No polish building scandal, yet. Or cleaning scandal. Yet. Maybe they will come soon?

The reason you will not read headlines like that about polish people is because polish people are european, they actually come to work and are decent and normal people who comply with their host's country laws, more so than third world people? Agree?

And I haven't heard about swedish/german/danish youths rioting in the streets of Oslo, burning cars and shops and beating innocent people, they are also one of the biggest immigrant groups in Norway..oh wait, that was muslim youth.

So stuff if, aphrodisiac.

Dariusz

Life / Racism in Poland - the future [441]


Hmm..ok. I don't really know who made you the judge of what I can and cannot talk about, or why here on this forum. I'm half polish and half norwegian, if that in your eyes makes me "not eligible" to participate in a debate about the future of Europe, especially Poland and using Norway as an example, then many people here could not talk about anything. Including you. Are you an expert on everything you talk about? Are you "eligible" to talk about all the topics you choose to comment on? You are being elite and snobbish. Typical "I'm better than you", left-sided attitude.

Only socialists, leftist and communists talk like you, Aphrodisiac. You always want to be in control of who can talk, and what we can talk about. We are not living in one of your communist paradises anymore, so you can't decide who say's what or why. Just deal with the fact that we have freedom of speech, and I'm one of those darn people who chooses to use it!

I focus on these issues, because I came to Norway as a little boy from Poland. I grew up in the streets of Oslo, before they filled up with third world immigrants, mosques and gangs. I have SEEN, FELT AND EXPERIENCED what uncontrolled third world immigration does to a peaceful and including western nation. It's bloody war out there! Again, I can post you hundreds of links that show how muslims are top of every rape statistic in all the european countries, how third world immigrant gangs control streets with narcotics, prostitution and violence. How riots on the streets of our capitals are beginning to escalate, and thousands of cars and buildings are burnt down every year in cities like Paris, Rotterdam and Brussels. And even up here in my peaceful and lovely Norway.

YOU JUDGE ME FOR BRINGING THIS UP? You ask me what this has to do with Poland? Before Norway became part of the multicultural experiment gone so very bad, it happened in England and Germany. Then it came to Sweden, before we fiinally got it here in Norway. Poland and the eastern european countries, after being included in the EU and participating in the economic boom that we will see in the future, will be next on the line for major immigration from the third world. They will buy "quotas", as Norway does now in the CO2 hysteria, where you can buy yourself free with money. Poland will have the possibility of buying immigrants from other countries overflowing with them, in exchange for economic packages, loans and goodwill. And as polands economy slowly grows, health care, social welfare will be introduced into everyday life. This will then spark an influx of third world immigrants from all over the world, seeking new territory. We already see new mosques being built to facilitate the growing number of muslims that have settled in the major cities in Poland. This is the first step for Poland to become part of the multicultural suicide that we now see all over Europe.

THAT IS WHY I'M DEBATING IT HERE!

The real racist here is YOU! You are the one who wants a homogenic, stable and relatively peaceful society like Poland, to become a mirror image of England? Or France? The biggest racist are the immigrants themselves. Believe me, I grew up in one of the most multicultural parts of Oslo, where close to 50% of the population were non-ethnic norwegian. The violence, the drugs, the fighting among the immigrant groups was at time ferocious. Constant bickering, tension, fighting, even shooting guns at eachother, barely 20 year olds getting into humoungos brawls on playgrounds with bats and knives. I've been stabbed once, beaten with iron rods once, seen my home burglarized, my car stolen twice, my friends beat up and my female friend groped and harassed. I can tell you a dozen stories from my childhood, that a child should not be able to tell!

So take your sanctimonious, leftist, ******** propaganda and STUFF IT! Multuculturalism doesn't work. ANYWHERE! If it does, please send me a link....(small kids of different colour playing in a sandbox does not constitute successfull integration).

If you REALLY need me linking you demographics charts, crime statistics, rape statistics, terrorplotting in mosques, drug wars and overcrowded prisons filled with third world aggressors, then I will. But using Google and typing in certain keywords will give you this ever faster. I have several posts in here where I do this. Just go on my profile name and search through my posts and you fill find it all. But if you want me to do it again, specifically for you, I will!

Dariusz

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Just a small contribution to the debate;

Jewish professor Noam Chomsky defends holocaust revisionists and says;

"I have been informed that Vincent Reynouard has been charged and imprisoned for violation of the loi Gayssot and that a petition for his release is in circulation. I know nothing about Monsieur Reynouard but I regard this law as an absolutely illegitimate infringment of the principle of a free society, as it is been understood since the Enlightenment. As a consequence of this law the state has been granted the right to determine historical truth and to punish anyone who opposes its edicts. This is a principle that smacks of the sinister days of Stalinism and Nazism."

document.no/2010/09/chomsky_forsvarer_holocaust-be.html

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Who got 250 000 pounds to appear in the Irving vs Lipstadt trial....along with other experts who also received handsome payoffs of similar amount...now, what was Evans going to say for that much money?

Irving put his personal fortune into his trials, while Lipstadt and others get their expenses paid by wealthy supporters. Even if you have the truth on your side, if your opponent has unlimited funds and can get every person or expert from across the globe...you will have issues fighting them!

Here's a link to the Sunday Times, where a journalist picks apart holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthals many lies. If he lies about one thing, it's ok. If he lies about two things, one should be weary. If he lies about three things, one shouldn't trust him. Now, should we trust Simon Wiesenthal after all these lies have been exposed?

entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article6718913.ece

The Jewish Chronicle responds with this article by Associate editor of The Times, Daniel Finkelstein;

"It is right to expose Wiesenthal";

thejc.com/comment/columnists/it-right-expose-wiesenthal

I say, keep an open mind.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Are we talking about islam now, jonni?


So, what's with the double standards? David Irving has some shortcomings too, but his are not accepted. However Wiesenthals are? They both wrote books, they both lied.


No nazis/racists care about David Irving, he is too complicated and sophisticated for them. He writes books that are 500+ pages.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Coming from the man who hates racists/nazis but accepts islam....hmm.


I think it would be more interesting to hear your explanation.


By you?


It used to be universities, libraries, governements, the military, history teachers, people who are interested in history in general. You think "racists" or "nazis" buy 50 dollar books that are 800-900 pages thick? I know both racist, nazis, muslims, mormons, catholics, leftists, communists...and I've seen their book collections. But you do know that Mein Kampf is a best seller outside of Europe? Especially in the muslim world. Now...you want to explain that?

I know a lot of things, jonni!


If someone who pretends to represent the truth and is universally accepted as one who speaks it, is caught lying, then he should be exposed. Nothing more sinister than that, Harry.

It's not about his hunting of war criminals. It's the fact that he was caught lying, over and over again. And his books are used at schools, in using facts about the holocaust, making movies etc. Wouldn't you want the truth, rather than a lie, when looking at history?

Irving may be a liar, a cheat a con-man, who knows. But so is Wiesenthal, so why not treat them as such? Why give one medals and the other a prison sentence? Irving might be a great friend to someone, a great father, an organ donor for that sake, does that excuse his lies? I don't think so.

Again, the hate, Harry. You need to relax, take a pill. Or something.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

This is a disgrace. To deny people freedom of movement or speech in 2010 is just plain sick. Whatever he said or did. He paid his price in court, and he did his time in jail. It's the same thing for the mosque in New York, the same people who defend building the mosque in New York, are the same people who would ban or "closely monitor" David Irving in Auschwitz. What about installing cameras and microphones in every mosque/church/synagogoue in the world, and directly link it to the CIA, NSA and Homeland security? No? Why not? If someone is lying/practicing hate speech wouldn't you want to know about it?

The jewish torah tells of jesus boiling in his own excrements and that his mother, the virgin Mary, was a *****. The koran tells of non-belivers as infidels and that they should be subjugated to force of conversion or taxed/killed if not. The catholics tells us of purgatory for non-beliverse and that all are born with sin. Now if that's not hate speech, then I don't know what is. But still, priests/rabbies/imams from all these faiths come together in all western countries and talk about peace and understanding. The media goes along, and no goverments or public officials monitor them 24/7, when they preach. Noone bans their books or speeches, although what they claim IS hatespeech!

But if some 72-year old fart comes along, challenging some historical facts/myths/whatever, oh la la, sound the air raid sirene! Here comes some geriatric fool with a tailgate of 12 people who represent 0.00000001% of the population. Hold the headlines! Clear the police cells! Democracy is under attack! Western democracy can celebrate itself in it's self-indulgent glory of double standards and lack of reality...

Are you going to closely monitor catholics in protestant churches? Are you going to closely monitor jews in mosques? Are you going to closely monitor homosexuals in straight bars? Are you going to closely monitor Africans/Europeans/Indians/Aboriginees/Martians if they are out of their areas? Who draws the line, and for whom? They all preach/think/believe contradictory to eachother, they all disagree, and they all "lie", if one looks at it from that perspective.

What about the Israeli school tours to Krakow/Auschwitz that have been exposed as pure "hate-tours"? The students are being instilled hatred from day 1. All poles are evil, anti-semitic and want to kill them! They are being "protected" by security staff so the people waiting for them can't reach them with pitch-forks and zyklon-B! They bring with them mossad/bodyguards who attack innocent bystanders in the streets, block off peoples homes with their buses/entourage, and create tension among the local population. Then they defecate in the hotel beds and throw food on the walls and ceilings and destroy hotel property. When they encounter local people they who ask who they are, they hysterically think that they are being verbally attaced, while the fact is nothing could further from the truth. After crying their way through the camp with their oversized flags and plakards, getting "vicitmized" enough for ten life-times, they all get back on the bus, singing "Shalom Malechem", feeling like the "chosen ones", while the rest of the goyims/non-jews are being thought of as worthless, anti-semitic trash. If ANY other country/people did this to their school-children, they would be labelled crazy/nazi/racist/fascist/new popular word to stifle debate.

Now, THOSE tours are accepted, both by the Israeli governement, the Polish governement and the media, and as the article mentioned, they have what is most important, they have "acknowledged tour guides". Whatever that means. How about freedom of speech? And how about people like Simon Wiesenthal, Misha Defonseca, Herman Rosenblat or Elie Wiesel? They all lied too in their memoirs, would they be "monitored closely" showing people around in Auschwitz, in case they said something that wasn't correct? (Emphasis on "like", as some of these people are not longer alive).

It all smells like rotten fish to me.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

Is this the same Tadeusz Borowski that wrote the book titled "The Death Of Schillinger", where he claims that "Lagerfuhrer" Schillinger, killed tens of thousands of people by hugging them with his iron grip?

codoh.com/newsite/articles/bradleysmith/adoc02a.html

(From Borowskis book)

"Schillinger reigned over sector 'D' with an iron hand. He could strike a blow as hard as a metal bar; he could crack a jaw or crush the life out of a man [by hugging him to death] with no apparent effort".

But somehow, only Tadeusz Borowski knew who this "hugging-murderer" of tens of thousands of people was;

(Comment from Codoh)

"You would think such a monster Jew-killer would be mentioned in some of the well-known titles in the literature of Holocaust cultism. Maybe he is. But his name is not indexed in Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews . He's not mentioned in Leon Poliakov's Harvest of Hate , or The Holocaust Years: Society On Trial " by Chartock and Spencer, or Reitlinger's The Final Solution , or Levin's The Holocaust , or in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer".

I'm just saying....use some common sense people. One can be a great writer, a poet, but it doesn't mean you should take everything he/she says for granted. So many of the writers on the Holocaust have been exposed as liars, too many, for me to accept their memoirs without some proof.

It also says in the article that the Russian newspaper Pravda now has distributed a pamphlet called "On the Path of Aggression and Racism", in which it states that the jews in Palestine and America denied the European jews help, in order to fast-forward the establishment of a jewish state, and that the holocaust would help with this. Here's a quote from Yitzchak Greenbaum, who in February 1943 was acting chairman of the Zionist Committee for the Rescue of European Jewry;

"When they [Diaspora Jews] come to us with two plans-the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe , or the redemption of the land [ Palestine ]-I vote without a second thought for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraization of the land [ Palestine ]. If there were a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the [United Jewish Appeal] to send it through Lisbon [to the concentration camps], would we do such a thing? No! And once again, no!"

It also mentions that the numbers of killed jews were inflated to help with the propaganda.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]

I feel calling these people "Polish" is a bit harsh, as in Norway, these kind of people who joined other armies or did not support the Norwegian government were branded "Traitors", even to such as extent that the bigges traitor in Norway before and during the second world war, Vidkun Quisling, got his name in the international dictionary as being synonym with "traitor"!

I am not schooled about the people mentioned here, but I would believe if they served in the SS or in any foreign army, and against "The real Poland", they were traitors. No?

So, calling them "Polish", as in that they represent the real Poland, is something I would argue about. In Norway, the traitors lost their citizenships, lost their rights to vote, to own property and even to work in certain areas. They were lost souls, and rightfully so. All countries have such people, but to brand Poland as a nation with these peoples actions and say it reflects something more than a posse of unpatriotic hodlums is going a bit too far.

Many countries would be guilty of many things if this was the norm, or the standard of which a country/people are being measured up against.

Some jews are swindlers and crooks, are ALL jews swindlers and crooks? Is Israel a criminal nation, because SOME of it's inhabitants kill small children with machine guns?

Are Americans bad and evil, because they took much of the land from the Indians?

Should the British today be held responsible for what the Catholic church did during it's heydays, when they were torturing and killing people in the name of god?

Should Poland be held responsible for these 5-6 individuals if they were rotten apples? Is it fair, that Harry uses their actions against Poles 50-60 years later?

If Poland dealt with these people, and did whatever was correct to make them answer to their crimes, then I don't think Poland should be as a hostage for their actions. Yes we can learn from them, we can try to prevent such things from happening again, but I would never be so bold as to use horrendous crimes perpetrated by "traitors", and paint a whole people and nation with their crimes.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


I just assume it from the way you write. You say "Poles", but you don't specify who you mean. You say "Polish people". From that I guess/think that you mean "Poles" as in ALL Poles.

Like here;



I agree.


I know Poland has tried to convict war-criminals and sent out papers to international police forces and other nations to return these to Poland, but from what I've read, it's been hard. Especially the jewish war criminals who fled to Israel. Israel has a policy of not sending any Israely citizen out, for whatever reason, to stand trial in another country.


If you refer to islam, then it's not an ethnic group, but a political evil, disguised as religion. I only have to ask you to read their "holy book", there you will find racism, sexism, homophobia and the worst forms of derogatory language about non-muslims. It makes Mein Kampf, which by the way sells very well in islamic states, look like a sunday prayer book in a Quaker village.

And if you look at the amount of terrorists, terror-attacks and violence people who are of muslim faith stand for in all the European/Western, not to talk about their own nations. I don't think we are talking about "the actions of a few people", Harry. More like hundreds of thousands. (9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Beslan, Bali, Moscow, Mumbai...)

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


I conclude that you mean "All Poles", as in the whole Polish nation. If you don't, then you should state that a bit clearer next time. Your attack on Poland, Polish people and Polish history is infamous here on PF. You reek of hate against the country that you live in. Why, only you know.


I was thinking more about Solomen Morel who is said to have killed over 1500 people, mostly Germans and Poles after the second world war in concentration camps on Polish territory;

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4659985.stm

Not to mention all the guards and leaders of the jewish/communist led concentration camps in Poland after the war.

Also included in this list are the Bielski brothers (Who are all dead now), who are under investigation by the Polish Institute of National Rememberance for their crimes against humanity.


Wow, you have got some hate going on there Harry. Take an easy pill, will you?

Muslims kill in the name of Allah and Mohammed. Europeans killed in the name of political insanity, and they are all gone, dead and many of them sentenced before they met their maker. They were nazis and commies, and the rest of "White Europeans", actually MILLIONS of them, gave their lives to stop them. Now, how many muslim countries put up armies and fight against the muslim terrorists? Compare the numbers and you will find that your logic is lacking on all areas.

Would you defend Nazis, because "not all nazis are bad?" Islam is way more racist than National Socialism ever was. So why defend islam? Why not defend Nazis? They are protected under the "Race, religion and political" acts of Europe. It's not illegal to be a National Socialist or Communist in Norway....

The muslims, a bit closer to our actual reality, are still out there, planning the next mass-terror attack. Now how am I bigoted and have a worthless logic, because I want to stop these people before they can do more harm? Were the resistance groups in the Warszawa ghetto "bigots"? Did the resistance groups all over Europe who fought for their freedom against the Soviets or Germans have "worthless logic"? Come on now, Harry, come back to reality, will you?

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Yes, of course. In their own country. Not in Europe. Oh wait, they don't have free speech in their countries. I don't believe such a racist, homophobic, sexist and intolerant cult, disguised as religion, should be allowed to openly practice it's barbaric and undemocratic ways openly among our civilized nations. It goes against every value and democratic right we have fought so many wars to achieve. And now we open the door to our medieval past and let in this trojan horse, which if it continues at today's pace will erase our whole society and fabric of life as we know it.

For Europeans I would love it if we had the first amendment of the U.S...unfortunately the more multicultural we become, the more draconian laws they have to make, to "force" us to live amongst one another. Now wee have hate-laws, laws against racism, homophobia and so on. Every year there are more laws, more restrictions on our freedom. The muslims have taken advantage of this and claim that critisizing their religion is "hate". But what about the content of their holy book? If it came out today, with a blank cover, and said it was a "new" religion, it would probably be banned...just like Mein Kampf is.

There is a difference of Europeans debating about historic facts/myths and allowing a death cult to establish itself amongst us.

And the hate laws are 99% meant to be used agains Europeans anyway. Only "we" Europeans can be racist, not the non-Europeans. They have NEVER been racist, started ANY wars, conquered ANY land or have NEVER enslaved ANYONE in their whole existence! Only whitey did these things. People actually believe this.

About your comment on who believes the mosque should be built/rebuilt/allowed to be built near Ground Zero, and then refuse Irving to speak/walk around freely in Auschwitz, we need not look further than here on PF. I believe you and jonni fall under this category.

If I'm wrong on this point, then I'll apologize. But am I? (Be honest).

Dariusz Telka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Yes, because muslims do not share our values of democracy, freedom of speech, equality among the sexes, accepting homosexuality and that children have rights too. There are too many differences between our societies and cultures for us to co-exist. And again, just read the muslims holy book. In it you will find things that contradict most of our western values and teachings.

How can you argue freedom of speech for someone who doesn't want it for you?

David Irving might be a loonie, but he is loonie that does not want to transform our society into a sharia-law-abiding, intolerant and uneducate/religious dunghole. He merely offends people. Many do that. It's allowed. But muslims want to forbid this offending, on a basis that they are a religion, and therefore protected under our new hate-laws.


Maybe. Of course not all muslims are terrorists! I know many muslims who are not! :-) But their way of life will, once they have outbred us westeners, will be our way of life. Do you want to exchange your peoples' history, culture and heritage with theirs? Have you been to their countries? Compare them to Italy, Spain, France, to the architecture, the philosphy, the history. It boggles one's mind, to think that someone looks at both our cultures equally and equates them, who thinks that they are the same and that it doesn't matter if one take over the other.


There is a BIG difference SeanBM. One writes books and takes tours...harmless. The other really tries to change our WHOLE society from within by sheer numbers, and evetually by force. Now if there was a million David Irvings, then we might be talking about a real threat. For now, the revisionists comprise of a couple of dozen pensioneers who sit in their offices reading old papers to amuse themselves. If you put all the holocaust revisionists together, they would probably not fill up a medium size tour bus. Not exactly the same thing is it. I am NOT a holocaust denier, I just like to have an open mind on history. And one can't get away from the fact that much that has been said about the holocaust have been fabrications and lies. Now where these start, and where they stop is open for discussion! Which we can have, since we live in a democracy and enjoy freedom of speech. Now try do to this in Iran, and try to have a debate about Mohammed or about anything in the Quran...and see how far that get's you. (And you do of course know that the Iranian president denies the holocaust? Not because of freedom of speech, but because he hates jews. And where does he get these wonderful ideas? The Quran..).


Well, it might be pitiful, but it's the truth. Most leftist today have this notion that only the white, rich societies are evil, and that the muslim world never did anything wrong, and only want to live in peace with us. But if you bothered to pick up any history book, you would find evidence on the contrary. When even heads of state of a muslim countries openly brag that they will conquer Europe, not by swords and canons, but by baby-carriages and that muslims in Europe should not integrate, but keep their faith and traditions and multiply, then we should stop and listen. (Ghadaffi and Erdogan, from Libya and Turkey respectively).


There is a difference in saying that David Irving should be allowed his little "tour", without the state imprisoning him, even if what he says is wrong and in many eyes, distasteful, than equating it with a medieval cult, who says that anyone who disagrees with them are infidels and will either pay up or loose their life. Agree? Revisionists never beheaded, stoned, shot, blew up, mamed, tortured, raped, killed or took over whole city areas in the arab world. But muslims have done this, in the name of their religion, in our countries. IF and WHEN the David Irvings of this world start doing this too, we will be on the same page, SeanBM.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


I agree 100%!

They have made martyrs of all of them, Zundel, Irving..the lot. Instead of saying, ok, let's have a debate, let's examine everything, they say; Silence! Off to prison you go! How easy is it not for them to say, "I'm a victim". These kind of people THRIVE under such circumstances!

One doesn't "legitimize" someone just because one debates them. Whoever concocted up that undemocratic phrase should be ashamed of himself.

And when Zundel got his time in court back in the 80's, at the infamous "Zundel-trials", he didn't do all that bad, actually. Now isn't that better than silencing/imprisoning them? These are not stupid people, and they would accept defeat if it evidence was put before them.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Yes, that's why I mentioned the medieavel times...we had our period of bloodshed and bigotry. We cleansed ourselves of it. How is it going to help us to reincarnate it through a different belief system today? If the catholic church did what islam does today, then I would oppose that too! I am not defending radical christians, if someone thinks that. Like that sect in the US that laughs and taunts dead soldiers at their funerals...wow, now there is real hate and bigotry if I ever saw it amongst our own.

We created the "New Testament", as opposed to the old one...I would hope that the muslims could make a "New Quran", that said, "Turn the other cheek" and "Love thy neigbour", and so on. Today we send spacecrafts to the outer limits of our galaxy, we have heart transplants, and universities full of academic freedom and knowledge. The muslim world has nothing that even comes close. This is because their religion controls their lives. Just like the catholic church controlled our lives back in their "glory" days. We learned from that, and evolved. How and when is the muslim world going to do this? They clearly state that they don't want to integrate or become like us. So why come here then? To make us like them...


I even read Hitler copied his eugenics fascination from the americans that started in the early 1900's too...

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Yes, Stu, I agree with you on many aspects! Crazy people among our own need to be dealt with accordingly! That's why we have developed a very extencive law system for our societies. It is specifically made to deal with our people, who have our culture and society as a foundation. The muslims come from klan-based societies, from societies that view the macho culture of honour and violence as the thing that solves problems, rather than a court and a judge. They laugh at our laws and sentences, and look upon our prisons as 4-star hotels and a notch in their "macho" belt.

So to import MORE crazy people is just that, crazy! If you have water in your basement, you don't put a hose on full pump and put it in the basement as well, do you?

If we are to open our borders, I want fully functional people, people that are mostly secular, at least in their every day life, people with degrees in engineering, science, medicine. People who will contribute and even elevate our societies. Many such people come from third world countries like India and parts of Asia. I'm sorry to say only a handful of the muslims qualify for this description. Note to SeanBM, jonni, Harry...I actually have a muslim doctor from Iran. He is great! But if he kept a woman in a burkha at his reception desk and demanded that my wife sit in the back when we go together to visit him, he would not see me again!

When it comes to the radical Christians, they live in a special world, and it's sad if they don't take part in the normal society, as the ones you described in Holland. We have a "bibel-belt" here in Norway too. Small churches every mile...."Holy fire of Jesus Christ chuch", or "The blessed church of the first saints", and so on....some weird names down there. A lot of homeschooling goes on there too. But as a counterpart to the muslims, they don't create "no-go zones" for non-christians in their areas, they don't sell drugs, they don't gang rape our young girls, they don't stab and kill people who critizise them, like happened to Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh in Holland. The radical christians don't occupy an unproportionate percentage of jail cells for the things I just mentioned above. They don't demand governement funded churches being built with towers that dominate the skyline. They don't, like unfortunately many muslims do, honour-kill their daughters and mothers, or throw acid in their faces, scarring them for life. They don't claim financial support for children they don't have and scam the welfare system in every way possible. They don't fill up all the battered-women centres and mental health institutions. They don't like the muslims do, demand that we give them time off for their own holidays, the removal of Jesus and christmas carols from traditional christian celebrations, seperate swimming pools, muslim prayer rooms in every governmental workplace or at airports etc. They don't demand specially prepared foods, blessed by their religious leaders in schools, even in jail! They don't demand religiously seperated old peoples homes...the list is soooo long.

And if someone from the christian realm wants to quit, to enter the "atheist" society, they can do so without having to live under protected housing, using false names and being afraid their whole life. Because in christianity, denying your faith, is not punishable by death! Yes, there exists some christian cults who approach some very un-democratic ways of life, but they are so small in comparison with the general population, they are not the norm. As opposed to the muslims, in which their religion and holy book dictate their lives 24/7. They are obliged to follow it, or are punished by their society if they don't. It's the will of Allah....It's important to see and understand this difference!

There are many differences between radical christians and muslims, Stu...but as you said, we have our own bad apples! So, let's not import more, shall we? And IF WE DO, they have to swear an allegiance to our laws and our ways of life. They may not bring their whole klan mentality with them, and if they break any laws they will be returned! I personally would like to see the introduction of worker-programs on a time-litmited basis, as they have in Asia. You come for 3-5-7 years, you work, you send money back home, and then you leave...for home! For good!

SeanBM: About the introduction of islam to this thread, kind of sorry, Harry mentioned that I am a bigot and brush everyone with my brush of hate...so it kind of got off from there. But, I'll be more than happy to get back on the actual topic, although my comment was meant to illustrate that people who usually want to ban right wing opinion, usually have no problem letting violent and extreme muslims to have their say. But of course, it's easy for you to now use this an excuse not to actually have an opinion on this matter. And hey, who made you the dictator? I know how much you leftist like totalitarian systems, so go ahead, SeanBM.

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


A thread can go many ways. If I could connect the muslims to this thread, it is the fact that leftist want to stifle debate if it's people like Irving or political right-wing parties, but have no problem allowing muslims to say things that are much more hateful and anti-democratic. It's this double standard and hypocrisy that I'm out to understand. So, the consequenses of allowing muslims to come into majority power would be that the holocaust never happened, that the sale of Mein Kampf would again be legalized and other than that, there would be no free speech. And no PF for that matter to even debate free speech! How about them apples?


Well, hats of to you for doing such a great job! I have argued about the fact that you can't debate free speech with people who don't see that as a basic right for every citizen. You on the other hand, seem not to have any problems with this logic.


David Irving is not even on the same planet as the muslims. He represents a branch of our western, free speech society. He does not want to overtake our countries and bring in draconian laws that we repelled with the blood of our heroes. Why would you stifle him, but allow islamic preaching on the same land?

So, how about you then, SeanBM, would you allow David Irving to have guided tours in Auschwitz, unsupervised? Would you allow him to hold speeches at hotels, conference halls and in public, in which he debates the holocaust?

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Ok, so we agree. Hatespeech is Verboten, this makes both Irving, AND islam illegal!

I can live with that!

Why didn't you just say this right away, we could have been spared all these posts.

Thanks for clearing this up for us!

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]



I told you he was a dictator.... ;-)

DariuszTelka

History / Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland? [246]


Sorry, I feel like Harry now...

If anyone thinks David Irving is being harrassed then think again...this newsstory worries me a bit more than a 72 year old man having alternative views on the holocaust;

"Three-year-olds being labelled bigots by teachers as 250,000 children accused of racism"

It goes on;

"Teachers are being forced to report children as young as three to the authorities for using alleged 'racist' language, it was claimed last night".

"Munira Mirza, a senior advisor to London Mayor Boris Johnson, said schools were being made to spy on nursery age youngsters by the Race Relations Act 2000".

"More than a quarter of a million children have been accused of racism since it became law, she said".

The WHAT act? The Race Relations Act 2000? The New World Order, coming to a kindergarden near you....

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1314438/3-year-olds-labelled-bigots-teachers-250k-children-accused-racism.html

F*ck the holocaust deniers, let's get the kids!

DariuszTelka

Life / I saw Polish nationalism today [249]

Skinheads and neo-nazis in countries previously occupied by nazis are not uncommon. Now if someone want's to write a "Freudian" university paper on the subject...go ahead. I'm just gonna link a couple of newsarticles that can make people go.."huh?".

"A neo-Nazi gang in Israel sounds, at first, like a nasty mistake. But experts say that eight young immigrants from the former Soviet Union may have stumbled over a mundane obstacle: integration."

"Police said the cell's leader was Eli Buanitov, a Jewish-descended Russian immigrant who swore in an e-mail never to have children. "I won't have kids," he wrote, according to detectives. "My grandfather is half Yid, so that this piece of trash won't have ancestors with even the smallest percent of Jewish blood."

spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,504803,00.html

"English skinheads wave.... Israeli flag!!!!"

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211414/Anti-fascists-clash-right-wing-protesters-Birmingham.html

"German Islamists convicted over bomb plot"

"Four Islamists have been convicted by a court in Germany of plotting to attack US facilities in the country.

The men, two of whom were German-born converts to Islam, were given prison sentences of between five and 12 years."

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8549044.stm

And now for the "raisin in the sausage", like we say in Norway:

"Norwegian police are investigating new claims that a Russian neo-Nazi arrested in Oslo last month was planning attacks on personnel at the Russian Embassy and on Norwegian muslims".

newsinenglish.no/2010/10/07/russian-neo-nazi-planned-attacks/

Now, does this make the polish "nazis" look any less crazy? Maybe not, but there sure is a lot of strange things going on in Israel/Europe right now. I could just as easily have found the same "crazy" people on the left, stalinists, animal liberation groups, anarchists, muslim fundementalists, feminists etc. They're all out there for those who want to see.

The nazi/skinhead movement is basically dead. What we see here are remnants of the past, trying to find a new form. The only reason nazi stuff is/was used was to get attention and to scare people. 99% of the people in these groups did not know anything about national socialism, Hitler, the war or anything. But to tattoo a swastika just meant to be a rebel, to stand out. It could just as easy be replaced with another symbol which would represent the fight against communism or muslim immigration/violence towards ethnic europeans. But the swastika or any other nazi symbol works best. The media and the leftist governments that have had control over our countries the last decades made sure of this. The communists in Oslo and other european countries could have their own house, concerts, marches, flags with communist symbols..they were free to voice their political view. The right wing had none such freedoms. This naturally created tension and animosity among the "frustrated" nationalistic elements of the population. Poland is not vaccinated against this, so there will be people who are attracted to these views and political fringe groups. How many are they in Poland? 0.000001% of the population?

DariuszTelka

Life / I saw Polish nationalism today [249]

Ender, I found som links to the marches around in Poland. I read in article that they had slogans like: "There is no shame in being Polish", "Poland, big and independent" and "Patriots march again".

March from Warszawa:

youtube.com/watch?v=oih9rEVWyZk&feature=player_embedded

March from Wroclaw:

youtube.com/watch?v=I_xL4dKdlbs&feature=player_embedded

A guy not happy with the police. He complains about how they, the Poles can't even move freely around. I also read the the "left" side didn't have the right to demonstrate that day, but did so anyway. Some of the anti-fascists attacked people going to the march on a train with hammers and tear-gas.

youtube.com/watch?v=bB2Bzf3zpE4&feature=related

"The nationalist march commemorating Poland's Independence Day finished by the monument to 1930s nationalist leader Roman Dmowski".

thenews.pl/national/?id=143298

Is this really "nazi"? Or is it ultra-nationalism/patriotism? I can argue that nationalism/patriotism is very good for a nation. As well as I can argue that nazis have nothing to do in Poland.

How are people ever going to get the difference?

DariuszTelka