News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


I prefer "German Empire".....I'm not that hot on all things Rome historically, heh:)


For what are they working then?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Holy Roman Empire

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire


Nun ja....listening to some of you they are seemingly only sleeping there in the EU parliament....doing nothing at all to stop the Germans from domineering....don't they work for polish interests?

But then, they are in different EU parties...their interests might differ....

Do you have more infos about them?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

Erm.....


theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/24/poland-jarosaw-kaczynski-germany-eu-fourth-reich

Yeah....I can see these Nazis.....

On the Law and Justice list: (ECR)

Adam Bielan
Joachim Brudziński
Richard Czarnecki
Anna Fotyga
Patryk Jaki (United Poland)
Krzysztof Jurgiel
Karol Karski
Beata Kempa
Izabela Kloc
Joanna Kopcińska
Zdzisław Krasnodębski (independent)
Elżbieta Kruk
Zbigniew Kuźmiuk
Ryszard Legutko
Beata Mazurek
Andżelika Możdżanowska
Tomasz Poręba
Elżbieta Rafalska
Bogdan Rzońca
Jacek Saryusz-Wolski
Beata Szydło
Grzegorz Tobiszowski
Witold Waszczykowski
Jadwiga Wiśniewska
Anna Zalewska
Kosma Złotowski
Dominik Tarczyński - since 1 February 2020[2]
---
On the Spring list: (S&D)

Robert Biedroń
Łukasz Kohut
Sylwia Spurek (independent)
---
On the European Coalition list:
--
Civic Platform (EPP Group)

Magdalena Adamowicz
Bartosz Arłukowicz
Jerzy Buzek
Jarosław Duda
Tomasz Frankowski
Andrzej Halicki
Danuta Hübner
Ewa Kopacz
Janusz Lewandowski
Elżbieta Łukacijewska
Janina Ochojska (independent)
Jan Olbrycht
Radosław Sikorski
Róża von Thun und Hohenstein
---

Democratic Left Alliance (S&D)

Marek Balt
Marek Belka
Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz
Bogusław Liberadzki
Leszek Miller
---
Polish People's Party (EPP Group)

Krzysztof Hetman
Adam Jarubas
Jarosław Kalinowski

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament_for_Poland,_2019%E2%80%932024

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Yeah well.....*shrugs*....there are of course differences.....in London democracy is done differently (poodle wigs:) than in Washington too (only two parties).....alot of that is due the history. After the defeat in WWII West-Germany got itself a most modern, updated variant.

But similiar in that they are no dictatorships and an endless one-man rulership who jailes, beats and kills every opposition...also in the EU parliament they get elected/kicked out every few years....majority rules....everybody can take part as long as he adheres to a few common basic rules.....you know...such stuff....

Where is my idea of democracy not democratic?

In case you are truly interested:

....Elections to the European Parliament take place every five years by universal adult suffrage, and with more than 400 million people eligible to vote, they are considered the second largest democratic elections in the world after India's....[1]

While European political parties have the right to campaign EU-wide for the European elections,[5] campaigns still take place through national election campaigns, advertising national delegates from national parties. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parliament

But still....it's yet only similiar....the still rather loose integration doesn't allow for more:

...No other EU institution is directly elected, with the Council of the European Union and the European Council being only indirectly legitimated through national elections.[4]...

It think that in a future "inner core" integration will have come so far that the whole government will be electable and accountable to it's citizens, as it should be!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


It can be challenged anytime....there are different party's and factions in the EU...most are in alliances with likeminded.....if Poland and Hungary get no sway then it's their lack of networking and building of support and alliances. Maybe they are just that isolated with some of their positions. In the EU you also need to find a majority to get things done your way. It's similiar with any democratic parliament (including corruption)...don't blame "the" whole EU for lack of a members success!

If you are truly interested:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_groups_of_the_European_Parliament#9th_European_Parliament

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


If the EU would start building walls to keep us IN, you would have a point.

As it is we need walls to keep people OUT.....as annoying as that might be as a benchmark if an institution is successful or not it doesn't point exactly to it's looming demise!


The EU has already changed alot in recent years....wall building against mass immigration for example had been unthinkable a few years back...today I read that the EU is planning to support nuclear power....with the help of german EU politicians (Von der Leyen herself btw.) who belong to Merkel-Party CDU....a total setback for Merkel and the Greens anti-nuclear power-policy....

I trust in the EU that she is adaptable, she is already proving to be able to!


Every nation has manufacturing and non-manufacturing regions....where the wealthier support the poorer regions.....that is impossible in the EU as it is now, but the "inner core" will be able to do that for it's members too.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


I doubt I (or you) will be around if that happens....the EU is good for some more decades! The global political necessities now and especially in the future will demand that.

And as history shows the EU as it is will rather fizzle out....starting probably with a slow but steady split into an "inner core" with nations willing to go further and an "outer core" with nations which will not.

Now just think about which voices will be stronger on the world stage, who will be heard and who will be ignored....

PS: When your people later belong to the latter, because of decisions made by people like you, don't blame the Germans again for your own shortsightedness and the consquential difference in power and influence! Of course the inner core of the EU will have more of all of it, Poland would again be only a bench sitter, politically and also economically...

Who should be ashamed then?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

....it didn't really work anyhow....

Have to go.....'night :)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

...you fear germanisation but want us to become a military big boy again??? Man, I can hear the cries of joy from our neighbours already...

Remember? As we met first back then I posted german jokes to convince you we Germans really have at least a bit of humour! :):):)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Thing is I don't believe you disagree on the EU or on the point of a union generally, you often post here as a proud Brit, I never have you seen criticizing their empire, their union.

Your problem are the Germans only....and that is another topic altogether!


Been here recently? I wish Berlin could control Berlin....we Berliners would be perfectly happy with that....but its not happening....Berlin is a failed state!

Your image of the Germans lives alone in your head, and it is incredible difficult to discuss with a prejudice, a cliche, a non-existing stereotype, a fear. Maybe we should leave the EU out of our future discussions. Our disagreement isn't really about the european union....


It's the run of time I think....all Empires go through a kind of evolution.....usually they don't end with a poof but rather fizzle out. It's all true what you and Cojest say....they become to big, to bloated, to corrupt, to bureaucratic...the inner differences to big, the leadership to weak....all true.

But you know what happens then? After a time a new Empire/Union will be founded...sometimes even in the territory of the old one....a new name....a fresh spirit...fresh enthusiasm...again and again and again....

The advantages are just to big to ignore!

Yeah....in time the EU will collapse, but I truly think for the upcoming centuries she will be Europe's only way to stay on top....to keep in the play with the real global big players...not to be overrun and become a used hasbeen on the world stages, depending on foreign powers and their whims!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Because it is?

Unification = bigger, stronger, more powerful, more influential than every region for itself alone

It's not exactly rocket science....even economically weaker/less developed countries have a bigger voice just because of their size and population.

Size is Might!

(And I don't even start with technological development, industrialization and all that where Europe leads....that power unified, pooling its resources, could take on anybody and everybody anytime!)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


See?

What else are you afraid of?

French is surely not a Lingua Franca in Europe....or else I would speak it! :)


Then why do you defend the Brits? Their history is as bloody, oppressive, agressive and dominating as you keep accusing the Germans of.....is that the Pole speaking?


Erm....definitely NOT!

We had our own Empire (HRE)....lasted even longer....nearly 1000 years, thank you very much. IF, then the Brits emulated us, heh:)

The Hanseatic League worked well too....an idea of an economic union across borders....now THAT was german dominated! Still...extremely successfull...lasted over 300 years and made many traders rich....you can still even today see along the coastlines the traces of those times...(and Poland was part of it:)

Milo,

you should stop observing Germany through your polish WWII eyes, that must give you a distorted and inherently wrong view. German history is much more than that, so much more....and frankly, since the Germans under Arminius kicked roman asses at the height of the Roman Empire, starting their end, I find it truly hard to call them losers! :)

2000 years if history Milo....good and bad times.....ups and downs....won some, lost some...truly bright spots, really dark ones too.....and the newest chapter isn't even written yet!

Good night:)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


When all start speaking German as Lingua Franca of the EU, then you could start speaking of Germanisation....


Now that is all in your head....and frankly, I don't know where that comes from?

You have to decide at one point....do you need/want a losing Germany? And what about the other Europeans?

Would you prefer an EU without Germany? What should happen with Germany?


PS: You had an Empire and lost it....has history now proven too that you are a loser?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


But it didn't start out peacefully for you either, didn't it...not to mention losing big chunks over time...and I heard there is "talk" in Ireland and Scotlang now too...;)

It's like the EU in reverse!


Totally agree....that's why we stopped trying! :)


What is wrong with peaceful unification?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Yeah....and before that it was German....and before THAT it was Latin....so what!

I would like to keep English (it's also most easy for Germans since it started out as a germanic dialect)....no interest in learning Mandarin....


Really....as the EU was started Germany just lost WWII, was totally destroyed, still occupied and partitioned....that must have been some magic at work here! ;)

(Or we are really those Übermenschen!!!:)



You prefer we try it with our armies?


Is a unification generally you have a problem with *cough UNITED Kingdom cough Commonwealth cough* or do you just don't like especially Germans doing it? Like winning Football World Championships? :)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

It's the Lingua Franca because of the US....

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


....english it would be not necessary because of little England! ;)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

....it should be definitely "homegrown" people in every Europol base!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Yeah well....Interpol just elected a criminal to lead....a "fox in the henhouse" so to speak.....

....As if to prove the thesis of Applebaum's article, on Nov. 25, 2021 the International Police Criminal Organization, popularly known as INTERPOL, elected Emirati Ministry of the Interior (MOI) General Ahmed Naser al-Raisi as its new president. The media has widely reported General al-Raisi's involvement in human rights abuses and the UAE's role in past exploitation of INTERPOL.....

inkstickmedia.com/the-fox-guarding-the-henhouse/

Building up a real functional Europol would be a worthwile achievement in the light of this!

The main problem for all these common institutions as I see it is the babylonic language chaos in Europe I fear....a problem I don't have a clear cut answer for yet.

I would go with english ffs....as would most Germans....even as german is after english the most widely spoken language now that the Brits are out (36%), but the French are stuck on french (29%) and so are others with theirs like italian (18%)....or spanish (17%)....but a real USofE need besides a common territory, joint borders and shared institutions at least one main language EVERYBODY uses, at least officially!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


A common currency.....free trade in the biggest common market in the world....free moving across the continent for goods and people....funds for the weaker regions...common institutions...

That's what super duper Empires of the past tried to achieve....the EU did it, peacefully....for nearly 80 years now!

You've got to be kidding me, either you don't know sh't about the EU, it's advantages and it's disadvantages....or you are just willfully ignorant, and that is never a good advisor to make correct judgements and informed opinions!


Alot of these problems are still part of the souvereignity of each member state....without giving up more of these national rights up to the EU there is no way the EU can do something about it, she just has not the necessary rights and allowances.

It's a long way to go about it, some members will walk the whole nine yard....some will not!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


*nods*

...doesn't mean survived challenges won't change the EU too.

That belorussian scheme trying to blackmail the EU with refugees is a good example, it only will lead to something which had been taboo till now, a "Festung Europa"!

But every "United States" needs that, it's practically a basic requirement....a clearly defined common territory with jointly secured and defended borders!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


It is the strongest super state we did ever build....

The other alliances were only build to hold the "others" in check, and we both know how that always ended...those "nice" times had been short lived breaks, always gearing up for the next big catastrophe.

As the USofA had been disunified and quarreling once in their history that too led there to war and utter destruction. Only a Union can and did put an end to that!

A Europe without the EU, with all its countries members, will soon also again lead to a sad and bad repetition of well known history....it would be futile to believe otherwise.


A country isn't only developing when it's population grows....or otherwise african or arabic sh*itholes would be far above us by now.

The next proof of superiority and development is the "race to the stars"....there lies our all future! Who wins this will rule!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Without the EU it HAD BEEN EATEN by its neighbours....countless times....but now they are all members of the EU...as equals with equal voting rights!

....After the Eighty Years' War, Luxembourg became a part of the Southern Netherlands, which passed to the Austrian line of the Habsburg dynasty in 1713.....

.....

....After occupation by Revolutionary France, the 1815 Treaty of Paris transformed Luxembourg into a Grand Duchy.....

....

...in the following decades, Luxembourg fell further into Germany's sphere of influence, particularly after the creation of a separate ruling house in 1890. It was occupied by Germany from 1914 until 1918 and again from 1940 until 1944.....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Luxembourg

And now that:

...Since the end of the Second World War, Luxembourg has become one of the world's richest countries, buoyed by a booming financial services sector, political stability, and European integration. ....

That was a bad example for your position, Gruni! :)

Actually all tinies and weaker countries will never have it so good as with the EU....especially those who fear a dominant Germany....without the EU you wouldn't be equals anymore, with the same voting rights, sitting at the same tables...adhering to the same treaties!

Ask Luxembourg! ;)


Where should they do that? There is hardly any barren land in Europe...some would even say it's overpopulated.....maybe if we put more ressources into space exploration...the search for a new Earth to colonize....new ressources and developing of new technologies....also something that we Europeans TOGETHER could do alot better than every country alone for itself....logical, right?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


How so?

I compare a future USofE with the one federal super state in existence, the USofA! (Build by Europeans at that!)

How do you think would....say.....Iowa....Nevada....or Mississippi hold up all alone against....say....China or Russia? Economically and military?

Think about Alaska....would Russia had gotten it back till now? All alone by itself?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

....and wait for someone else to bake you the perfect cookie? That you can enjoy then afterwards?

I don't think the EU works that way.....I don't think LIFE works that way....sorry....

If more Poles would had appreciated the old Commonwealth and fighted to keep the Union together Poland would never had suffered such a fate by it's neighbours!

...just saying!

*takes helmet, steps down from the soapbox and leaves for now*

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


So....I do all the work for a cool USofE whereas you work for Poland leaving?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Totally agree! :)

But you see....the talk about a federal EU has also just started....that idea has to grow roots first before we can do any planning...



Alot like that....but which idea would be longterm better for our countries, for our people? Back to the beginning with empty hands? All alone in a globalized world?

Or a super strong USofE???

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

I was surely one of the mockers who laughed out loud about Helena Dalli, the braindead maltese EU official who truly thought to spit on european traditions would be a great way to make it easier for non-european foreigners to feel welcomed here...

We showed her how wrong she was....that Europe must not give up it's soul, it's culture, it's traditions to be a diverse Heimat....I felt better after she took it back! I think the EU is better now, keeping it's heritage openly and officially.... :)

(and I'm not even Christian or otherwise interested in those "book-religions")

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

....By the 18th century, destabilization of its political system brought the Commonwealth to the brink of civil war and the state became increasingly susceptible to foreign influence.[100]...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Political_turmoil_and_the_enlightenment_(1697%E2%80%931771)

That's what you want for Europe?

...The remaining European powers perpetually meddled in the country's affairs.[101] Upon the death of a king, several royal houses actively intruded in the hope of securing votes for their desired candidates.[102] The practice was common and apparent, and the selection was often the result of hefty bribes directed at corrupt nobles.[103] ....

Just supplant the then "foreign powers" with the future global powers....and that will be our fate too....partitioned into other non-european powers spheres of influence, without any say in it anymore!

Can't you see that?

No, the EU is not perfect....as the old Commonwealth wasn't perfect.....but Poland was better WITH IT, than without it.....the same applies to the European Union!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


It's yours too....make it better!

There had been no Germans in the old Commonwealth, you have only yourself to blame....maybe Poland ist not good for any Union? But to survive alone ist hard too...

So why not take what you have and make it work for you?