News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]

So...how does that fact compute with the build image of the EU as the "mean dictatorial german led oppressor" in Brussels? The "yoke of the polish people"? :)

Poland just said "no" and that was it...

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


You have been really traumatized by that, haven't you....

But I too hope such a situation never unfolds again!

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


It's very rare that people are happy paying their taxes...but if not enforced, the gov would starve to death, so would soon many people. Once advanced rich societies would soon look like african third world pits (with only a few have-it-alls) including rising instability and violent conflicts.

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]

Heh:)

Very interesting wording!

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


It's the same with taxes!

Every democratic gov demands them...and all people are nagging about it!

If left to be fully voluntarily there would be much less of it....but also much less of infrastructure, usable streets, medical and educational services, military, police security, welfare for the old and sick, pensions and what not.

It's the solidarity of a nation...and totally enforced!


Tell me again how many of these refugees pushed Germany into Poland exactly?

News / Coal-Powered Poland Refuses to "Go Green". EU Ain't Happy. [304]


Seriously, more and more people are feeling more threatened by the man made global warming than by an invasion by someone or the other...

Everybody (in Germany at least) wanting to raise the NATO fee has to answer "....and why not for the environment??? Isn't the money there much more needed?"


It could be worth a try....

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Why is that a problem? The EU shucks out support funds since the beginning! I never heard anybody complaining on the receiving end...

It's no accident that one argument for the Brexiters is that they no longer want to pay for the "EU-slackers"...but "local autonomy" somehow never featured much with the receiver populations.


In a closely integrated European Federation...logical!

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


I disagree...it's necessary to maintain solidarity. After all I'm much more inclined to support people close to me than outsiders...Germans being solidary with Greeks was pushing it, especially as it became known that for example greek pensioners got earlier more support than german pensioners, so it was hard to explain to german poor pensioners why they should pay so that the greek pensioners could live on better than them.

But if the social systems for example would be all integrated then all pensioners had the same rights and duties, no matter if they live in Greece or Germany and it would be much easier to feel solidary towards each other.


There is no economically "good" country nor an economically "bad" country.

Every country has it's economically well off, successful regions and it's poor, less developed regions. That has nothing to do with the EU. But they get now support funds from the EU with the chance to invest in these regions, to develop them.

But without any closer integration nobody from the outside...say...from Brussels... can influence how the national gov is using these support funds, so it happens that poor regions stay poor, but that is not the fault of the EU and those support funds.

To make better choices to help with the development of poorer regions it would need a common economical ministry/department...but that would mean again much closer integrated economies!

The only thing that would happen outside the EU is that they either would have to chuck out this support by themselves now again or cut it out. That's the only options! These regions won't become developed now just because the country decided to leave the EU...there is no sense in that!

News / Coal-Powered Poland Refuses to "Go Green". EU Ain't Happy. [304]


The money isn't the problem...Europe is the most richest continent, with the european Single Market we have the most richest consumer base...WE ARE TOP!

The will and the ideas are the problems...we are slowly getting to it now though, but it's still a struggle...but the will is growing!

This first "green deal" is about 1 Trillion Euros, Crowie! ONE TRILLION!!!! And it won't be the last...

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]

Do you think solidarity is ideological?

News / Coal-Powered Poland Refuses to "Go Green". EU Ain't Happy. [304]

Well...the new EU "green deal" could be a start!

ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/european-green-deal_en

It will definitely cost alot...but could be worth it in the long run...and it's definitely a kind of "pay back" to nature!

News / Coal-Powered Poland Refuses to "Go Green". EU Ain't Happy. [304]

They can go all green tech and become a world leader?

Poles do well with computers! Digitalization and AI could be their chance! :)

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


I'm not sure what you mean with that "contradiction"....

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


I'm sorry Maf....even when I'm disagreeing with the outcome of elections....I still accept the democratic process (and hope for the next one).

Neither is the EU the mean dictatorial all-powerful overlord nor are the Greeks the totally helpless, weak, naive sheep as you prefer to present both. Just accept that the political and economical realities are alot more multifaceted and that there often is no clear cut solution to fit all!

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


To chose to become part of the EUROZONE is the end of the integration, there is nothing faster than that. But it had been Greece totally wanting, demanding to become part if this zone of highly competitive, integrated countries. So much so that they cooked their books to present themselves as much more advanced and stable as they truly were..

Who is at fault now?


In East-Germany too...

We will proably need the same time to catch up as we have lost!

There are good news too....Brussels just decided to cut the support for Turkey at about 75%!

Money well saved! :)

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


These are support funds paid by the givers of the EU...but there is not much Brussel can do to force the receiver gov to use them wisely...that's the problem about it!

But imagine Berlin or Paris or others would decide what to do with it IN Poland...can you imagine that outcry?

There is where the influence ends, you can only hope for a good gov who knows what to do with the support...but all in all I think Poland had better luck with economy savvy politicians than...say....Greece!


Greece is a democratic country...they chose their government fair and square.

Lately they even chose a conservative gov again...not wanting to leave the Euro at all...so, with what exactly are they disagreeing? Surely not with receiving the solidarity!

Or...where is Varoufakis now?

News / Coal-Powered Poland Refuses to "Go Green". EU Ain't Happy. [304]


In Germany it's called "structural reforms"...the closing down of whole longstanding industries. It's one of the most demanding and expensive tasks for any government.

Short term minded politicians of course want to shy away from it...they have nothing to gain from it but costs and ire. Even if it will be necessary for the good of the country, they might lose the next election over it.

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


That's not "handouts" or welfare...it's investment. When your industry is not able to compete you will never be able to pull your own weight. So most of this money is meant to get your economy up to par...so that you in the future no longer only export cheap laborers and in time will become an asset, maybe even a giver yourself.

West-Germany got this kind of help after WWII with the Marshall-plan and it is paid back thousandfold...East-Germany got this kind of help after the re-unification..and it ends now (end of the solidarity-tax 2021).

That's a huge difference than to pay welfare for people who can't help themselves!

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Welfare/Solidarity is meant to prevent the worst....starving/freezing to death on the streets! It's a generous help to absorb the worst of life's shocks which can happen to everybody.

It's granted with the case in mind that the giver can become a taker and needing this help at one time in his life too. But it is always meant SHORT TERM, only as long till you get on your own feet again. But that you have to do yourself!

When you pay for strangers welfare and the recipient keeps on receiving without any signs of getting out of it, is it your fault now?


Every giver feels self-righteous...and every taker feels not only gratefulness but also resentment....it' only human!


Now that is just a lie!


It matters alot!


Only if the welfare recipients really truly want to stop the welfare...thinking they would be better off without!

The only ones tearing the EU apart could be the givers stop wanting to provide solidarity/welfare...

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Solidarity by strangers for strangers is called welfare, maf!

There is a limit people are willing to pay for non-family members to support them. It's hard to convince someone who has to struggle himself to pay for far away peoples privileges. Solidarity can't be ordered at will, people will start to balk! Austerity of the recipient is the price to pay to keep up that solidarity! (And the biggest motive to end that dependency).

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]

It's only the other side of:


Maybe we can agree that both will keep on existing? ;)

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Tax havens have a very bad image, they are parasites living off other peoples work...often unlawfully.

I don't know if that's the image Brexiteers had in mind for their proud country!

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


That had been always the case...it will be just a tad harder now....

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Again, that is not something the EU can change...it isn't a federation as of yet, and won't be for awhile. If you mean the EURO membership, that is another thing altogether and of course that needs different rules.

And btw. there is no "doomed to eternal austerity"...there is just bad economy and bad monetary decisions...


Why? Been invaded recently? ;)


I want to have a front row seat for that discussion (+ popcorn)... :)

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Because they are quite proud of being part of the few in that "nukes-club"...as they are of having a steady seat in the UN or being a victor of WWII....

What is Poland going to tell them when they say you don't need any nukes because their nukes work as a deterrent very well?

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Quite the contrary. I think the most unregulated phase of globalism is nearing it's end...but then I can only speak from a german point of view where right now bundles of new social initiatives are planned, decided and agreed upon.

But again, that is not an EU thing...all member states make still their own social policies.

There is some stuff nonetheless:

eurofound.europa.eu/topic/social-policies

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


But how about the political price? It's worse than building an nuclear reactor directly at your border. Because if something goes wrong your neighbour is paying the price...so he will be pissed!

In the EU Poland will get alot pissed off neighbours...and the French won't like that at all..

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Maybe...the naming could be handled differently. But analysts expect the future...not-core....to consist of mainly the same cluster of countries which made up the founders of the EU. With some assorted plus who are able and most important willing to cross-link themselves into a federation (which will probably named differently too).


From what?

Maybe the EU is more a continental thing...it was founded without London after all....

(But I expect totally the EU federation football team to beat the english team!!! :) After all wie would have the best Spaniards, Portugese, Dutch, French or German players and trainers!!!

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


Big Empires had exactly ONE top dog, Milo! Big difference :)

Unions are the next step...the industry is only the beginning. Most big players play globally and are multi-national by now...that is the future.

You don't want to play that game? You will fall behind...that's the alternative!


Agreed!

The "one blanket" approach worked well in the beginning, for a culturally close core....but with so many so different members it's not possible anymore...and it doesn't has to.

Thing is that from Poland come mixed messages...they WANT to belong to this "core" but would still rather prefer the economical club, that's why they are fighting the idea of an "EU of different speeds" as it is also sometimes called...that is a question which Poland needs to find a solution for in the coming years...


Heh:) In the age of globalism the EU is the most modern thing in Europe! :)

Nationalism and national states acting only alone by itself are the "huge old dinosaur" here...in the same way horses had been at the dawn of the automobile!

But they are known and trusted and you know how to handle your horse and that "new thing" is still so strange...and so loud...and stinks....and get's people killed! And why the heck would people need to go so fast from point a to point b? Nobody needs that! :)

News / Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU [548]


They hear it but they know it's crap!

There is no world conspiracy of a powerful circle (mostly Jews of course) do steer the poor unsuspecting sheep into their direction....there just isn't!

You can fight against globalism's most unregulated features as you want and it would be good fight...but to fight globalism is like fighting the Internet, industrial revolution..or the printing machine....or the car...or the electricity...or even earlier the wheel.

It's the next step in our technological development! Alone it's possibilities is changing the world we are living in...it enables people and goods and ideas to wander in a till now unknown scale.

And during all aforementioned ages and developments there had been those who where scared and wished the "new stuff" away and the old times back...to no avail.

People will mix, borders will become less important, national states will grow into bigger unions...but that is a process we only see the beginning...our children and grand children will see it fully come to pass, but for them it will be a reality...nothing to be scared about. They don't know any differently anymore...

To say people are blind to that is wrong, most just come to different conclusions!

To make it all "go away" can only mean isolation, closed borders, only controlled contact with the outside world, censored internet etc....most people just don't want THAT (if they are given a choice)!

PS: Globalism is in no way neo-marxist (whatever that is)....it means foremost profit for those who seek lower labor costs and higher profits.


Because it's not "the EU" which decides about that, it's the members who struggle to clear that up because...*gulp*...there are many different opinions about that!

(Can you believe it! No allmighty mastermind behind all that!!!)

There are those who want a closer circle to develop into a federation...and there are those who don't want to....who would like to keep it as an economical club mainly.

I personally think those who want to cooperate more closely should do so and those who don't want to can stay out...and it seems that is the direction "the EU" will go in the end.

That's why the principle of unanimity was all but scrapped (after the Brexit referendum) only for those most important questions (like taking in new members and such). Now common projects can be worked on together by those who want to take part, whereas others can abstain.... In the long run it will lead to differently strong networks inside the Union.