News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


That's not quite true. There has been a tacit acknowledgement for a long time of how powerful non-physical attacks can be. That's why mental cruelty/abuse can be cited in a divorce case. And now cyber bullying is being recognized. Bullying through social exclusion is very common amongst teenagers and can be found in many adult settings and the workplace too. I personally think that 'hateful rhetoric' as you call it, should be liable for consequences if it's uttered in a public setting because it breaches the laws of civilized behaviour and social responsibility which we all share in maintaining.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


You're talking about America again. I asked why it was in your opinion that Jews in Eastern Europe were less integrated than Jews in the West, meaning Western Europe.

Reform Judaism has its roots in the 18th century Age of Enlightenment as it's known which was a cultural phenomenon throughout Western Europe, not anything to do specifically with Jews. It's the roots of our more liberal way of thinking all over the civilized world. It touched Judaism as well and resulted in the Haskalah movement and as early as the 1820s there were Jewish communities in Western Europe with mixed seating in the synagogues, no circumcision, etc. Eastern Europe was a different kettle of fish. It's an interesting subject and worth studying in more detail. You should consider reading Haskalah and Hasidism in the Kingdom of Poland - A History of Conflict, if you want to be better informed and more knowledgeable, you know, have some in depth knowledge.


Actually the British military police offered to send any discovered deserters back but Anders refused the offer so the British decided to reduce the number of Jewish immigrant licences to Palestine by the same number as the deserters.

And let's give a mention to the 30,000 Jews who volunteered and joined the British forces in Palestine. In fact that's where some of the Anders deserters ended up, serving with the British.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


The figures were actually for ethnic minorities, not Jews alone so my mistake there. By a directive of High Command ethnic minorities should not comprise more than 10% of the total forces and 5% of Non Commissioned Officers. This was in late 1941 when about a quarter of the army was Jewish. There were to be no ethnic minorities recruited for airborne units and only 5% fpr armoured units. It's quite specific.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


I named him because he was specifically cited as a desterter which he wasn't. As to the others, obviously it was a case by case basis and it's impossible to determine. Some Polish soldiers were sympathetic and agreed with it, some didn't. Even Anders had an ambivalent attitude and there is definite documentary evidence that he in fact put a ceiling on the recruitment of Jews for political reasons. There are always wheels within wheels in these situations. At one point he wanted no more than 5% Jewish enlistment.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Well I'd say myself that it had more to do with the fact that the Jews of Western Europe were emancipated and enjoyed almost full equal rights whilst in the partitioned Poland of the nineteenth century they didn't. It was in 19th century Germany that the Reform Jewish faith began.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

I was actually speaking to Ironside. But why do you think, as you've raised the subject, that Jews in Western Europe were so different to Polish Jews? So much more integrated into mainsteam society despite retaining their faith and religious practises?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Ok, I just wanted to clarify that I understand correctly. You would probably be of the opinion then that Jews didn't feel Polish. So why do you think that was?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Are you talking about pre-war??

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Facts are facts. When a soldier receives an official discharge he's not a deserter. You may feel that there's a moral question mark over his actions but he didn't desert because his absence was sanctioned. The question of Jews who left the Second Corps is a separate matter.

But in any case, lies have been told on this forum over the past couple of days about the lack of contribution by Jews to the Polish war effort. Even at Katyń there were several hundred Jewish officers amongst the victims.

It seems that with Polish Jews, it's a question of damned if they do and damned if they don't - the memory of those who served, those who died on Polish soil in 1939, those who were decorated for bravery, those who fought, died, or were wounded, throughout the duration of the war has been sneered at and belittled by the ignorant, the dishonest and of course the trolls.

I just think it's wrong and shouldn't go unchallenged.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

It's not a question of how great they are. It's a question of being truthful and for you as a Pole, it's a question of knowing your history.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Menachim Begin requested permission to leave the Polish army and was granted an honourable discharge. And General Anders own words were "I gave precise instructions not to pursue the deserters. I considered that the Jews who saw their first duty in the struggle for Palestine's freedom, had every right to that view."

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Having read your sentence again, I think you unintentionally made a mis-leading statement. You need to make a distinction between the Polish forces and Ander's army. There were 100,000 Jews serving in the regular army of Poland at the outbreak of war. Many of them died on the Polish soil in the first weeks of fighting. There were indeed approximately 4,000 Jews serving in the Polish second corps and they began 'deserting' in Palestine in 1943. Many of those 'desertions' were sanctioned and assisted by Polish officers.


Begin was given official permission to leave six months after arriving in Palestine and like pretty much everyone who left the Second Corps he went on to continue fighting with the Irgun. You can dislike his politics but you can't legitimately call him a coward or a deserter.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Where did you get those figures from? They are completely inaccurate.

News / Ryszard Czarnecki - Poland's politician and Member of the European Parliament [30]

The important thing to note is that, just as with the Rule of Law issue last year, the decision to remove Czarnecki from his post of responsibility was taken by his fellow MEPs who voted to do so.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

What do you mean 'are they Poles'?? Do you mean 'the others'? Dirk is a Pol-Am, Polish blood, American upbringing. As for Gregy what's-his-name, yes he's Polish or claims to be. Probably in reality another little FOP - friend of Putin. Anyway what does it have to do with the price of spuds?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Clearly you haven't been following this discussion - surprise, surprise. According to Dirk Diggler and others, Jews are not and cannot be considered Polish.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

You're being ridiculous. When I say Jews of Polish origin, I mean Polish Jews. If one were to count the number of Jews of Polish ancestry who fought in either war it would run into far higher numbers. By the way that was twelve decorated on one occasion not for the total of the war - you really are as daft as a brush. But it wouldn't matter if it were twelve thousand, you'd mock and scorn because it's very easy to do so from the vantage point of a comfy chair and a computer rather than from the realities of war.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Yes which shows how little either of you knows about Polish history. No Polish army in World War One. Nor did he clearly ask about World War Two's uprisings. But if it comes to that, the two main uprisings of WWII were the Warsaw uprising by which time most Jews were already dead and the Ghetto Uprising by the Jews themselves which occurred in 1943. Incidentally Dirk gave misleading figures when he denigrated the Jews for their low membership of the AK. The AK did not have 500,000 membership until it reached its peak in 1945 by which time the Jews had been wiped out. In any case that membership number is a generous estimate. Other estimates place it as low as 300,000 at its peak.

In the meantime 200,000 Jews of Polish origin fought in both the regular Polish army and the Polish army in exile throughout the war. In 1941 Twelve Polish Jews were decorated by General Sikorski with the highest order of merit for bravery in the Polish army. Research the rest yourself if you're interested - which you're not.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Well Jews certainly made their contribution in the British armed forces and in the struggle for Irish independence too. Jews have risked or given their lives in the service of their adopted countries all over the world.


Colonel Berek Joselewicz (1764-1809) formed and commanded an entirely Jewish battalion who took part in the defence of Praga during the Kościuszko Uprising in 1794. Only a few men including Joselewicz survived. He died in 1809 in the Battle of Kock so he gave his life for Poland.

During the November Uprising of 1830 the Jews of Warsaw petitioned the authorities to be allowed to join the various military units under the same conditions as other denominations. Jews immediately began joining up and in 1831 distinct Jewish city guards were created in each city vovoideship. The Jewish city guard of Warsaw took part in the Battle of Warsaw in 1831 - so again Jewish lives given for Polish independence.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


The Polish army in 1939 had one million men and 200,000 were Jews.


Well the Irish wouldn't! We're Gaels and we'll stay that way thank you but you're always welcome to visit :)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


They weren't kicked out of Ireland - I know we're small, but we're still a country. And there were 5,000 Jewish officers in the Polish army in 1939.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

It should be added that the Serbian side was the Allied side and Poles living in the Russian part of Poland automatically fought on the Serbian side.

Oh and let's not forget the women of Scotland who were out in Serbia as nurses and doctors tending the wounded. They are still honoured in Serbia today.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Poland as a nation state did not exist during World War One.


Part of Poland WAS fighting on the German side in World War One. As Poland was partitioned at the time, Poles fought for Russia on the allied side or Germany, Austria-Hungary on the other.

Work / What are job opportunities in Poland for a pharmacist from India? [16]

I checked online and unless your wife would need to apply to the District Pharmaceutical Chamber for Warsaw to have her qualifications assessed and be granted a licence to practise pharmacy. However she would also have to demonstrate sufficient command of both written and spoken Polish confirmed by an examination before the Central Pharmaceutical Chamber.


I think in Warsaw where the OP is going, it's becoming increasingly common.

Life / Why are Polish people so strange & unusual? [51]


By the West I assume you mean America? Because Poles are EU citizens and can live legally in any one of the other 27 member states.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Concentration camps, not death camps.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Ok Gregy, here's an example from Stalin's own personal notes on the subject, written in his hand with blue pencil:

"Who can do the arrests?
What to do with the ex-White military in our industrial factories?
Prisons must be emptied of prisoners.
What to do with different groups arrested.
To allow .........deportations, Ukraine 145,000, N. Caucasus 71,00, Lower Volga 50,000 ( alot!),"

I'd say he was quite hands on with the Gulags.

Read a few books.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


All religions should be acknowledged, respected and vilified equally in a fair and just society :)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Well now Gregy let's not forget that Stalin who was responsible for the Gulags in the first place was quite a promsing student at the seminary where he was training for the Orthodox Catholic priesthood. Let's give the Catholics their fair share of the blame for the Gulags.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Quite frankly dear, I think they're beyond even your own comprehension, such as it is.