News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Defending everything your country against all evidence (and indeed the views of most British people at this point) did on principle is kinda boring. It is ok to admit that Brexit was a stupid decision. Something every expert warned about, yet people voted for it. If the AfD ends up elected, nobody will be able to complain that nobody had warned about them.


I just didn't want to compare the consequences of Brexit with a war. As bad as it turned out to be, the suffering is quite on a different scale. Maybe Suez would have been a better comparison? Though again people died there as well.


Calling migrants "Messermänner" seems more than a strong opinion to me.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Yet they riding high in the polls and had a remarkeable success in the local elections.

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/articles/cp8jdr6ylzjo.amp

It is evident that Farage is benefiting from the unpopularity of both Labour and the Tories, quite like in Germany with the SPD and CDU losing votes to the AfD.

The man has been caught in many scandals, looked poorly in many public debates, and is with Brexit responsible for the biggest disaster in British history since WWII. It should be plain to see that this man should never have political power. Yet more and more people are considering to vote for him.

That is how the AfD looks like to many.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Problaby something similar to what many Brits are saying now while watching the success of Farage and his Reform party. Disbelief that people are voting for those politicians, coupled with the realization that this party now becoming a possible factor in their home towns.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Doesn't really matter if those countries refuse to take them back in the first place.

"Hey Marocco, we'll dump some people who may or may not be your citizen in your desert". I am sure this would work well... .


What law?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Not really a difference is there, when they arrive in Germany? Germany is not the first safe country on their route from either Ukraine or Syria.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


There is a need if the third country refuses to take him back. Can't punish people because countries refuse to fullfill their legal obligations.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Not like Bürgergeld is that generous to begin with. It is already as low as the law permits. And it only applys for recognised refugees.


That hasn't worked so far, has it? If someone enters via Poland and Poland refuses to take him back, he has to apply for asylum here.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Again, people who worked for decades and became unemployed would be receiving Arbeitslosengeld I instead.

Bürgergeld is something everyone receives as long as he has a legal reason to stay in Germany. Including Germans who have never worked in their life.

Btw. the conclusion from your link: "Benefits not a 'pull factor'"

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


It is also easy to disprove. Refugees don't automatically get Bürgergeld and for that matter, someone who has worked for decades won't be getting Bürgergeld but the more generous Arbeitslosengeld I for up to two years.


That is the consequence though.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Our constitution and laws place a lot of importance on human dignity. Which is why leaving people to starve -whether they are refugees or Germans unwilling to work - is not something German courts go along easily.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


There are legal limits to what extent those payments can be cut. Courts have made that abundantly clear.


Lets' be real here. Refugees have created a lot of expenses during the last few years, but the problems with e.g. our pension systems are a few magnitudes larger.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Many people are still reading the Bible and the Quran even though some of there verses were used to justify violence and punishments we today find wrong.

Like executing supposed practitioners of magic.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

I'd argue the real lesson is that closing the borders is really not a good idea, because while it may reduce on some for some time, the countries benefiting from this may very well end up as the destination from the next refugee wave. It was easy for Poland to advocate closing the borders in 2015 since refugees were coming from the South. Who would have thought back then than millions of Ukrainians may one day be forced to flee. And who knows what else Putin has planned for the future.

Hopefully the new quota system will allow a fair distribution of refugees across the EU, thereby preventing some countries from being overwhelmed and allowing the integration efforts to be more succesful.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


That is really not an issue if they are caught crossing from Slubice to Frankfurt. We are not just talking about refugees from the Middle East or Africa here, but also possibly from Ukraine, which is really where most refugees come from nowadays.


So Merkel was right then in 2015 that closing the borders against the will of the Austrians would have been in violation of EU law? I thought that closing the borders was what PiS demanded back then? So surely they would not mind it if Germany finally does what they advocated all along?

I suppose it is easier to advocate closing the borders as long as you are not the ones being stuck with all the refugees then.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

Should be interesting to see how Poland were to react if Merz actually orders that all refugee applications are to be rejected at the border and the people sent back to the safe country they came from.


As does Marxism. But I suspect few people who use that term know its' meaning.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

"Marxists" and "Fascists" really have become empty buzzwords nowadays.


Because the new government will presumably be careful to target actual criminals and not imply that all incoming refugees are criminals with their rhetoric?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Did the Nazis create antisemitism or did they amplify an already existing hostility towards jews?

Violence and hostility against refugees is hardly something that only came up as a reaction towards "Talahons".

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenhagen_riots

Nobody claims that the AfD created those resentment. What is being alleged is that they may be amplifying it.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


They are officially open towards qualified migrants and migrants from other EU countries (provided they work). Trouble is, if you are an African doctor, you don't have your job written on your head for everyone to see 24/7. So you are naturally affected by the negative attitude that may have been created by the AfD. Which btw is why the allegation that the AfD is deliberately creating such an atmosphere with their rhetoric is quite relevant.

There are already reports that regions where the AfD is strong are having trouble finding skilled migrant workers. Because really, if you have thr skills to work everywhere, why would you go to a region in a foreign country where the AfD is strong of all places.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


No. My response was to the question as to why there are no talks about banning the Left party as well.

Whether or not the AfD will be banned is up to the Constitutional Court. That Court has set a precedent that for a party to be banned, it not only needs to work against the constitution, but also have the size to realistically realize those ambitions in the future.
That is why banning the Neonazi party NPD failed, they were simply not big enough to pose a threat, even though they spelt out their program very clearly (which included btw regaining the former Eastern territories from Poland).

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Because the Left is not strong enough to qualify for a Verbot. They are not polling at 25% at the federal level and at 40%+ in some states. Once they do we can talk about a Verbot. The Constitutional Court that a ban can only apply to a party that is so strong that it may have a shot at realizing its' unconstitutional goals. Hence any attempt to ban the Left party would be doomed to failure.


*Looks at all the propaganda painting West Germany as a fascist hellhole being led by politicians plotting the invasion of the GDR.

Ever heard of "Sudel-Ede" von Schnitzler, the state propagandist?

As host of Der Schwarze Kanal, which ran for 20 minutes every Monday night, Schnitzler edited together extracts of Western television footage and recorded caustic, virulently anti-Western commentary over it. The show was particularly derisive towards West Germany and what Schnitzler perceived as Western imperialism across the world. His vitriolic style earned him the nickname Sudel-Ede - roughly, "Besmirching Eddie"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Eduard_von_Schnitzler

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

The AfD didn't have anything substantial to respond either.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

Again, we are not talking about criticism of Islam here.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


On the contrary. If confirmed those views may be in direct contradiction with several cornerstones of the German constitution, starting with article 1.

The issue here is not their criticism of islam, but that they are allegedly inciting hatred against all who follow the religion (or look like they do). Now where in our history has a political movement stoked hatred against a group of people that were seen as part of a religion?

To give you an example: You can criticize the Catholic church, e.g. their doctrine that prevents women from becoming priests and how they handled the child abuse scandals.

However if you make wildly exaggerated, insulting and false claims that e.g. "all Catholics are women-hating, child-raping devils who are destroying Germany and need to be deported to the Vatican" than you would likely find yourself in trouble with the law because you are defaming a whole group of people in a way that may incite violence against them.

That is why e.g. calling refugees "Messermänner"and other derogatory terms by the AfD turns up in the report by the Verfassungsschutz.

Whether or not those allegations are true will be left to the courts to decide.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Using rhetoric to incite hatred against muslims and migrants and denying that German muslims are real Germans and question their citizenship however may very well be used against them in court. And my understanding is that there are plenty of examples for that by AfD politicians.


All the Verfassungsschutz did was observing the AfD and collecting evidence. The AfD can now sue against the classification. If they lose, it is not because the Verfassungsschutz was abused, but because the evidence they built was so strong that it was deemed sufficient by an independent court. Again, the AfD are not victims here. The party chose a strategy that inevitably raises doubt about their loyaly to the German constitution.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


That is why we have courts who decide what still follows the law and what does now.


And rightists can sue again this description or e.g. fascist. Of course courts may also decide that based on public statements from the person in question, this may actual count as a factual description (e.g. Höcke).


Ultimately this will be decided by the German Constitutional Court.

Before that another court will decide whether or not the recognition by the Verfassungsschutz is justified.

The AfD are not victims here. They just reap the consequences of their actions. There have been man voices even inside the party who have warned in the last few years that the party was attracting and promoting the wrong kind of people. Their two past leaders Petry and Meuthen wanted to against those extremists, but ended up disgraced and leaving the party.

And if that is not enough, every time the AfD gets a victory or some influence, they immediately use it to confirm those fears. That disgraceful performance by the senior president of the Landtag in Thuringia comes to mind.


True. And if the AfD is banned, it is not because the Court decides that they don't like their pension plan, but because they are found to be actively working against the democratic order of Germany.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


One can feels as much hatred as one wants. Inciting others however... .


I am more concerned about not getting back to the Third Reich. That 2nd paragraph was added because the politicians who drafted the constitution had painfully learned that letting people spread lies and hatred can result in murderous consequences.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Basic law, article 5

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons and in the right to personal honour.

One such law is e.g. § 130 StGB (incitement to hatred, Holocaust denial and so on). This really shouldn't be news.


Please don't make me defend the Left party, but which prominent Left party politician has made such statements?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


I' ll have a closer look at it during weekend, but from what I've heard so far, it looks like they gathered a lot of damaging material. If indeed pretty much every prominent AfD politician has been observed spreading hatred against migrants in public, then it will become very difficult for the AfD to refute this classification.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


I am cautiously optimistic. At least when it comes to his foreign policy, he'll be in a much stronger position than Scholz since a) his foreign minister is from his party b) he now has the financial freedom due tot he reform of the debt brake and c) the biggest pacifists in the SPD are now weakened as a result of the election.


Apologies, I havent looked in my mails for years.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

Will be interesting to see how constitutional lawyers evaluate this decision. The legal argument needs to be very convincing in order to succeed.