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Posts by WielkiPolak  

Joined: 3 Jun 2011 / Male ♂
Warnings: 1 - A
Last Post: 14 Feb 2019
Threads: Total: 54 / Live: 6 / Archived: 48
Posts: Total: 988 / Live: 322 / Archived: 666
From: London
Speaks Polish?: Yes
Interests: Football/ Travelling/ Philosophy/ Religion

Displayed posts: 328 / page 5 of 11
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WielkiPolak   
4 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

So how about we cover it like this? If every time the Holocaust and how the Germans invaded Poland and set up camps to murder millions of Jews is talked about, we add a note saying that some of the Polish people collaborated with the Germans, we must also add the note that some Jews collaborated with the Germans too [and turned them in to the Soviets]. Strangely, you never seem to hear about the 2nd one.
WielkiPolak   
3 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I think the main problem Israel and the USA have is that they underestimated just how patriotic and proud PiS are. They thought that if they reacted negatively enough to the law, PiS would back out of it, or at least alter it, but they'er not doing that and this is probably frustrating them. You can see the frustration in the faces of the Israeli 'friends of Poland.'

If a leftist government was at the helm in Poland, they would start apologising and talking about how ashamed they are of what their countrymen did or how awful their nation was during the war and would drop the law in a second. Nope, patriotic right-wing governments don't grovel like that.
WielkiPolak   
1 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

It shouldn't be and most people you would think, understand this, but some [perhaps those not from Europe] don't and if they hear that incorrect terminology, they will think that they were actually Polish, hence why I think the government want to take a harder stance on this, because people are tired of having to explaining it over and over. Although it's more to prevent deliberate untruthful provocation than somebody using the term by mistake.
WielkiPolak   
1 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

so...what else can they do but pass the law and hope that it passes over?

Well they have passed it, now it's just up to the president to sign it. Since he has been talking so much about how we can't back down from this, it would be strange if he didn't. The only reason I could see him not would be if the threats from the USA have gotten to him, but then he'd get major backlash for it in Poland for it.

our favourite British-Israeli is still not supporting the Polish government on this one

I've never trusted him and always believed he was only interested in what he can get out of this 'friendship' for Israeli, but I would have thought he would keep that quiet and not make it darn obvious. Instead, he goes on Polish TV and does interviews with Polish papers, saying both sides should calm down and try to work it out and that it's just a misunderstanding - then on social media he does nothing but talk about how wrong Poland is with everything it does.
WielkiPolak   
1 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Looks like some in the Israeli government are so offended by this Polish law being passed in the senate, they are calling for Israeli ambassador in Poland Anna Azari, to be recalled.

politico.eu/article/anna-azari-israel-to-recall-polish-ambassador-in-holocaust-law-spat

Doesn't bother me in the slightest - she was useless anyway. Also, Poland doesn't currently have an ambassador in Israel either I believe.
WielkiPolak   
1 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@Ziemowit

Why are you just copy and pasting your reply to different people?

Sure there are probably people here who are happy about this rift and hope Poland turns on the USA and finds a friend in Russia. Many of us don't see it that way though. Just because Poland is having issues with Israel and the USA right now, doesn't mean Russia are suddenly their great comrades.

I would much rather Poland have the USA as allies, but America has to understand that being an ally or a partner doesn't give them [or their best buddies Israel] carte blanche to instruct the Polish government what laws they can and can't pass and how they should be written.
WielkiPolak   
1 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

If all the Poles in a certain village locked up all the Jews in that village in a barn and waited for the Nazis to collect them does that count as an action by the narod?

No, if such a thing took place, it wouldn't count as an action by the narod, it would count as a despicable act committed by a village in Poland.

People say that the law is unclear, but perhaps it is written in such a way to allow room for some common sense and treat each case separately?

If a teenager visits Auschwitz and asks about the Polish death camp, he should have it explained to him that there is no Polish death camp. If, on the other hand, a journalist purposely writes about how Poland co-operated with Germany and set up death camps with them, that's a blatant lie and should be punished. It should depend on who said it and if they said it knowingly. The courts will then be able to decide case by case.

Personally I think the phrase 'jak nie wiadomo o co chodzi to wiadomo o co chodzi' fits perfectly here. This isn't really about Israel being upset that Poland is trying to deny the Holocaust - they know it isn't doing that. It's about money.

If Germany and Poland are both responsibly for the murder of millions of Jews, then they both have to cough up. If Poland isn't guilty, it becomes a problem. It's no coincidence to me that the USA is also getting involved and trying to stop Poland from passing this law, given how they are trying to put S.447 through themselves.

congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/447/text?format=txt

Basically Israel looked at this Polish law and panicked, believing Poland was trying to cleans themselves of any wrongdoing. This would make it harder to extract money from them in future, if Poland was just as much a victim as the Jewish people.

I'm not even going to go in to other facts that are seldom spoken of and slightly derail the 'Jews were nothing but victims' compensation narrative - such as the fact that Jews themselves also co-operated with the Nazis and turned in other Jews. Or how some Jews turned Polish people in to the Soviets. Or that big powerful Jewish organisations in the USA knew what was going on and did nothing. Who's going to compensate for that?
WielkiPolak   
1 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

"whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes" so that would cover individuals.

We obviously read things differently. Polish nation and Polish state doesn't say individual or individuals to me - it's effectively trying to prevent people from claiming the Polish nation worked together with Nazi Germany to make the Holocaust happen. It also says, whoever accuses publicly, against evidence. Members of PiS have made it clear that it isn't about somebody who doesn't know any better, mistakingly saying Polish death camps, it's about purposefully trying to mislead people, contrary to facts. They have also said that artistic work or research is exempt from this law, so it won't prevent anyone from looking in to the Holocaust further and discovering that Polish people did co-operate with the Germans in certain instances.

Not sure what is to be gained by this unenforceable law - seems to me that PS were deliberately trying to provoke a culture war but didn't think the US would get involved.

I don't think that PiS was deliberately trying to provoke anything. They simply had enough of the term 'Polish death camps' being used and people trying to skew the past and turn it in to 'Germany and Poland worked together to kill the Jews.' So they decided they would bring in a law to stop this.

You know Israel has got a similar law for Holocaust denial right? Only it's up to 5 years imprisonment, not just 3. Also, I doubt people will be imprisoned in Poland - that's just the maximum penalty. I expect fines might be dished out to those who purposely try to lie about Poland's involvement.

I agree about the USA's involvement though - it's insane that they are trying to get involved and are basically threatening Poland.

state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/01/277802.htm

'We are also concerned about the repercussions this draft legislation, if enacted, could have on Poland's strategic interests and relationships - including with the United States and Israel. The resulting divisions that may arise among our allies benefit only our rivals.'

That just sounds like another way of saying 'you pass this law and you can forget about a partnership with the USA.'

Anyway it has now been passed in the senate, so the president just needs to sign.
WielkiPolak   
1 Feb 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I think it would annoy the non far-right standard PiS base a lot, yes. They vote for PiS because it's supposed to be a patriotic party who says Poland can stand on its own two feet.

If this law gets thrown out because Israel and the USA are unhappy with it, they'll be pissed.

PiS supporters don't mind a friendship with the USA and even Israel - they'll take that over any sort of relationship with Germany or Russia right now, but at the same time, they also don't like the idea of Poland being USA/Israel's *****.

If this gets a veto from the president because the Israeli government or American senators don't like it, many people in Poland won't be happy, and the suspicious voices saying that PiS is already just doing what the Americans and Jews tell them to do, voices that PiS supporters have so far tried to ignore for the most part, will seem more plausible.
WielkiPolak   
31 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Indeed the 500+ is a very helpful program.

By the way, the Polish senate is supposed to be voting on this 'Polish death camps' law tonight, or at least that's what was announced. It's after midnight there now though, so I don't know how long they are going to stay there.

Then if it goes through, the president just needs to sign.
WielkiPolak   
31 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

If think they are trying to focus on this too, hence the recent shake-up in personnel. Beata Szydlo it seems was there for the social help, families etc. Now Morawiecki is going to try and help pick up the economy and business in Poland.

However defending Poland's good name is something that mustn't be overlooked and I'm glad PiS and taking steps in that direction. Nations must defend their good name in the face of lies, and this is what this law is set to do.
WielkiPolak   
31 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

but is there a reason why after a period of 60 years Poland wants to make new laws relating to this terrible event

Yes. The reason is for many of those years they were under Soviet occupation, so nothing was done to put this right. For the last 25 + years, there were various governments and presidents - most of them crap. This is the first time Poland has an actual patriotic party and patriotic president in charge and they have decided they've had enough of the false accusations, starting with Polish death camps. Hence, the law.
WielkiPolak   
31 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Knesset today has voted that the law Poland is planning to pass, would be considered Holocaust denial.

jpost.com/Israel-News/Majority-of-Knesset-backs-bill-accusing-Poland-of-Holocaust-denial-540311

As if reacting hysterically to the potential law wasn't bad enough, now they seem to be going for an all out war against Poland.

So effectively, if Poland passes thir law without corrections [that is looking likely], Israel's law will say that Poland's law is, against the law [if you get my drift].

I'm not quite sure how that would work though, since Poland and Israel's laws and for their own nations, so I don't see how an Israeli law can say a Polish law, meant for its own land, is illegal, but it would be illegal to Israelis as Holocaust denial is illegal in Israel.

What an absolute mess this is turning out to be.
WielkiPolak   
30 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Well there were voices who were saying he shouldn't be trusted and is no friend of Poland for a while now, but others preferred to believe he really was there just to try and improve Israeli-Polish relations and probably felt any criticism of him was caused by anti-Semitic prejudices. He did after talk a very nice talk, praise Poland and even organised events commemorating those who saved Jews during the war.

I was always sceptical of him, although didn't want to pre-judge. I preferred to just watch and see what happens [much like I was sceptical about the PiS reconstruction, but again, was and still am prepared to watch and see how it goes since not much time has passed since it took place].

Anyway, too may times now his true colours have shone through. I agree, it's good people are starting to catch on to his real intentions and it's good that Israel has kicked off such a stink about this law, because it shows their true colours too.

He delph, something we seem to be in complete agreement over - what a rarity.
WielkiPolak   
29 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

The only question is where Jonny Daniels is hiding

Oh he's doing what he can to calm things down - at least in some interviews for various Polish papers and on social media.

He has said that there were no Polish death camps, that it's a false term and anybody who uses it lies, but at the same time he hasn't said he supports the new law banning the term from bring used, or criticised any of those in Israel and elsewhere, who have attacked Poland in the last few days. How diplomatic of him.
WielkiPolak   
29 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

The saga is still going on and I have to admit I am following it with a keen eye.

It's all over both the Polish and Israeli media, although a lot of the Israeli media is very anti-Polish and very much against this potential law. Check out some of the quotes from this piece from the Times of Israel published today.

Titled 'Poland pisses off the bubbes,' the article more or less gives an overview of what has been going on in the Israeli press for the last couple of days.

timesofisrael.com/poland-pisses-off-the-bubbes

As a day earlier, though, the paper fills its first two pages with accounts from survivors and their families about how terrible the Poles were, with an apparent emphasis on grandmothers.

"Grandma always told us that the Poles were more horrible than the Germans," one woman is quoted saying. "The Poles were the worst of all, that's what my grandmother told me, and I'll never forget it until my last day," adds columnist Telem Yahav.

and another

Not to be outdone, Israel Hayom also turns to the grandmas and like Yedioth also borders its pages with barbed wire. While it doesn't feature any Polish on its front page, the tabloid shows only an old woman's arm, numbers tattooed on it, next to the headline "stop the disgraceful Holocaust bill."

The quote is from a series of letters from survivors to Polish President Andrzej Duda against the bill.

"Your law is an attempt by the Poles to hide from their responsibility," one woman writes. "Hitler knew the Poles would cooperate and so the killing of the Jews happened mostly in Poland. It would not have happened in a country that loves Jews."

and there's also this

The paper also quotes Krakow Rabbi Eliezer Gur-Aryeh who says the law is just one part of a larger Polish effort to paint themselves as victims of the Holocaust.

"When you get to Auschwitz, the Polish guide mostly talks about the suffering of the Polish people and how 200,000 Poles were killed in the camp," he's quoted telling the paper.

In a way, I think it's good this has happened. I think a false image was painted of the great friendship between Poland and Israel. Here we clearly see, just how many Jews not only believe Poland had a hand in the Holocaust, but were worse than the Germans.
WielkiPolak   
28 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@Bieganski

I have to admit it is quite ironic to see videos of people from Jewish organisations calling for a multicultural Europe and saying Europe must take in Syrian and African migrants in order to survive, while they are giving the boot to African migrants in their own nation [and threatening them with prison if they don't leave] and persecuting Palestinians.

Quite the opposite, it's very popular among Polish tourists these days.

I think you have this the wrong way around. Poland was the top destination for Israeli tourists last year.
WielkiPolak   
28 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Why the fury? Because the "Chosen Ones" there have been living in a parallel fantasy world.

Perhaps, but it's such an odd move after members of the Israeli government, whatever their true intentions might be, had spent the last few months attempting to improve and strengthen relations with the Polish government. After all that, this just seems like a diplomatic error on their part - or perhaps it has indeed shown their true colours?

Again, I would understand if Poland was bringing in a law where nobody can ever say any Polish people did anything wrong during the Holocaust, but this is specifically referring to the death camps and that they weren't Polish. It's such a stupid overreaction by the Israeli side. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the diplomats who have been trying to look favourable to PiS, will be annoyed at how this has turned out. They didn't need this

I wondered that, I thought they would have seen it as a positive piece of legislation that puts the blame on the criminals who were responsible.

Unless all long their real belief was that the criminals responsible were Polish, and with this potential law and their reaction to it, despite all the previous 'let's be friends,' the mask slipped.
WielkiPolak   
28 Jan 2018
News / Mister President Andrzej Duda - Best Poland could get. [83]

and the racism against the Polish community here after Brexit was shameful and unforgivable.

Eh I wouldn't go too far with that racism stuff. Sure they are occasional incidents involving idiots, but no more than in any other country. On the whole, Polish people have it pretty good in the UK. If they didn't, they wouldn't be flooding over there in droves.
WielkiPolak   
28 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I mean, just look at the headlines in some of the foreign press.

'Fury in Israel as Poland proposes ban on referring to Nazi death camps as Polish.'

telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/28/fury-israel-poland-proposes-ban-referring-nazi-death-camps-polish

Why the fury? Have they been teaching people back in Israel that they were Polish?
WielkiPolak   
28 Jan 2018
News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Poland is simply the next rich seam they want to extract from.

Again? After the Second World War Poland was already paying compensation after an agreement signed by PRL. The last payment was made in 1995. It's something many people do not seem to realise. Poland has already [rightly or wrongly. In my view wrongly] paid compensation for decades.