News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


So if we are not God, how come we can lock up or execute people for killing someone else? That isn't an argument at all. Of course we, as a society, have to take action sometimes, and have to try to identify the absolutely strongest moral standpoint, and to set an example, support moral actions, and outlaw immoral actions. And this discussion is about how life, once created, should be sacrosanct. About how at the start, human life is, yes, extremely fragile, and should be nurtured, along with the woman whose role it is to protect this tiny life. To offer her the option of extinguishing this life undermines the very foundation of all of our lives. If it is so easy, and so allowable, for this little life to be snuffed out ... then who are we? And to be snuffed out because ... it doesn't suit the woman's immediate plans for her future? Because of money? Because she hasn't had a child before and is scared of childbirth? We should address these issues, then, and not just take the coward's way out, and get rid of the life.

So don't talk about playing God. Nobody is suggesting that. To my mind, it is to play God to intervene and remove a life which would otherwise grow to maturity. That is messing with Nature. Supporting a woman to go through a natural process is not.


Her body. Which is pregnant, through her actions. Not anybody's choice any more. Not even hers.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


? don't even quite understand that, but no, whatever it is ... I just think some people on here understand how precious life is, and others don't seem to understand that.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

But I do so get your point. Life is precious. If someone has just jumped onto the float and caught it, as that tiny flame of new life has done, then we need to cherish it, in the same way that if there is a moment when someone here could be lost, we have to fight for them while we can, because eternity is a hell of a long time, and there is no coming back. It is just blank. So we fight the darkness.

And that is why I love babies, and new life. They have actually come out of the darkness. They are a total gift. And the idea that someone could trash that ... you know what? I'm kind of not even interested in those people. Not at all.

It seems to me that some of us know, and understand, and get it, and some just don't. I could make a list here ...

The ones who get it:
p3undone
4 foreigner
Rysavy
Kondzior
Grzegorz
and the lady who told us about the dreadful gun business, out-of-state clinics, etc.

The ones who, sad to say, don't:
WB (sometimes actually does, but only intermittently)
Delphiandomine
Gabi (not through lack of co-operation - almost by being too 'fair')
Rozumieniec (probably does get it, but too shy to admit it)
Jon357 (deliberately doesn't get it)

And SeanBM is just provocative on purpose : )

But don't hold me to that list. It meant nothing. It was just an observation, and no offence to be taken ...

Will say, though, that slightly disappointed by the female contribution. We have had mostly women who have had neither children nor abortions, saying how the woman has a right to do what she wants with her body, and how an unborn child isn't alive. And then just a couple of us who actually have children, saying whe-hey - hang on a second here - you got it all wrong ...

The guys, on the other hand, have mostly been way more balanced and intelligent and feeling about this. Not so hormonal, I guess ; )

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

It was a turn of phrase ; )

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


whatever ... WB identified the categories ... so if you aren't pregnant before implantation, then ok, implantation would be the stage for me - the earliest stage at which it is not ok! Because for me I wouldn't have an abortion, because I don't agree with it (in case hadn't got that across ; ).


At our school we talked about it several times, and even had debates about it ... and the whole thing was always about 'choice'. Then I experienced the reality of it and realised that was a load of bollocks and that what was being done was, sorry to sound emotive, but actually murder. The shock of it nearly finished me off, and certainly was far far more effective at ruining my life than having a baby would have been.

So talking at school doesn't really help. You don't know what you're dealing with until you face the real situation. We also debated capital punishment in an earnest, sixth-former type way - but I bet we might have felt differently had any of us sat in the public gallery while it took 10 mins to electrocute someone ...

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For myself it would be fertilisation - i.e., abortion just not an option.

For those who have to have an abortion, ideally it would be before the hear starts to beat, so before 6 weeks.

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I just imagined a Polish-type scenario of Babcia doing most of the work ... ; ) And for sure every kid in that situation knows Babcia is Babcia, and Mama is Mama.



Aren't those two scenarios contradictory?
Anyhow, the 'all alone in a council flat' idea is not the norm ... difficult to get a council flat nowadays ...


I would physically restrain her from having an abortion after 6-7 weeks.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


It is a difficult situation because she is barely out of childhood herself, and she probably doesn't appreciate what it is to have a child, and what the full truth of her options is.

If she were my daughter, I would not suggest abortion, because of how traumatic and damaging it is, and how it results in a death, and the subsequent grief. I would try to give her the most truthful explanation of her options. I suspect that I would encourage her to have the baby, and that I would then take over the responsibility for bringing it up, until such time as she was able to take this on. She should complete school, and go to university. And there would come a moment where she was ready to have her child with her. And her child would be there.

So: I don't think that abortion should be the first-choice option. I think bringing the baby into a supportive family, and supporting the young mother as well. You say she has money, and a middle-class background, so ... I think that having the baby would ultimately be less damaging for her than having an abortion.

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? Haven't quoted any figures, no. Absolutely not. Have offered my opinion based on personal experience. If you had climbed Mount Everest, and I hadn't, I wouldn't expect you to quote me figures about how many people had, what their reasons had been, etc. - I would expect you to tell me what it was like - to give me your personal experience. Your individual response. That would be more valuable to me than figures.


You seem to speak English but I get the feeling we aren't speaking the same language.
I meant that your arguments led to a point of absolute nonsense, if followed through - where you wouldn't admit that a baby, out of the mother, was a human being. That is pretty crazy, surely?

But hey. As you say, it takes all sorts. What has annoyed me are your authoritative generalisations about women - such as that they cannot tell when they are fertile, that childbirth is a monstrous ordeal, etc., ... and the patronising attitude, but I'm sure you meant well. No offence taken.

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you dare to suggest what anybody should consider their responsibility? ; )

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Wasn't being sanctimonious or religious - just incredulous.

We all said pretty much that abortion in certain circumstances was an acceptable option, but we differed on what those circumstances were. Some of us extreme medical danger to the women, and/or a situation such as someone having been raped, and others of us ... that if it didn't suit the woman, for whatever reason, it was fine to abort as the 'thing' is only a thing anyhow, and not scientifically proven to be 'alive' or 'a person' (according to Google) ...

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Correction. You 'discussed' it - you said that according to your googling, women who suffered emotional trauma were in the minority, and that they mostly already had suffered from depression or had a leaning towards it. You basically said that these women were unstable anyhow, and it was nothing to do with the abortion. Which, is nonsense.

You really know absolutely nothing about this, all of your comments are based on questionable 'research' and an extraordinarily patronising attitude. You even argue yourself into the corner of saying that you don't know whether a newborn baby is a person or not, which is extraordinary nonsense. Are we only people when we have lived a specified time and died? We are always developing. Always. Until we decay. From conception, to death.

You have said that you don't want children, and consider pregnancy and childbirth an unacceptable ordeal for yourself. So ... whatever you do, do not patronise those of us who have had several experiences that you have never, and will never, have. Because you just don't know what you're talking about. You talk about respect, but are extremely selective in what you respect. And you are showing absolute lack of respect for the experiences and opinions of others here.

But it is so about you. Anyhow, that aside ... if there is no morality set in stone, then presumably that applies to everything. So just tell us, before you go - if a murderer says he felt he was justified (such as the guy in Norway), then it is OK, and we should respect his freedom of choice, and of belief, however distasteful we find it? Because that is where your argument ends up.

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a unique 'THING' according to some here ...

Gabi, a question for you:

Fetuses, as you prefer to call them, are known as 'fetus' medically up until delivery. So, then, why have any limit at all to abortion? Isn't a 9-month termination just as OK? Because one of the points some of us have been making is that in carrying out abortion while the 'fetus' is small, when it is relatively easy to do, it is equally easy to pretend nothing serious has been done, when in fact it has. But you have said that while the 'fetus' is in the mother, it is not born, and therefore not alive, and not a person. So does it become a person when it comes out? By your high-level reasoning, then that must mean that while the 'fetus' is still within the mother, it is ok to abort.

Do you get in any tiny way how spurious your logic is?

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Thank you, thank you ... at last another woman who gets it, and is equally outraged. As we all should be (that is a meek and muted call to arms, I promise - I am not trying to dictate what anyone should do ; ). And I am only saying 'woman' because guys don't go through this - but a lot of guys in this discussion show far more humanity & understanding than some of the other women - not quite sure why the women are so in favour. I think it is the women who haven't had the experience ... and, e.g., someone with a pathological fear of childbirth wouldn't want their lifeline cut by abortion not being available ...


Yes. Shamelessly so. Unbelievably so.


Yes again. Big yes to coercion coming in many forms. This is a subtle business.


You're welcome. Not a great topic, really, but just seems that in such a discussion, there need to be some genuine examples.


Hear, hear.


Bravo again.


You said it.

But to get right back to topic ... are we then saying that the Catholic Church is good, and ok, to do all it can to put the brakes on this practice?

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Completely agree.


Also agree. Would take it from a different angle, too - that a sane and moral society should support this role of women, and in every way it can, show respect for that role. So, a doctor asking a pregnant woman the unprompted question if she has 'made her decision' yet about whether to 'continue with the pregnancy' - is an example of breathtaking dysfunctionality in the society. Isn't it?

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Yes, and if they knew that there was no such option as abortion, I bet they'd be a damn sight more careful ...

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The life support machine is supposed to be the mother. And as far as I'm concerned, it is ****** up to think otherwise. Similarly, to call an unborn child a thing and to suggest that it is not 'alive'. This discussion isn't entertaining any more ...

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Sorry - did you miss the bit where I said I have experience termination of a pregnancy? I won't even say the word 'abortion' ... such is my abhorrence for it.

I didn't really want to spell it out, but if you want the story, can give you a summary. And I am the perfect example of a normal, happy, balanced young girl who underwent a termination as it was presented as the only sensible option by boyfriend, parents and the BPAS. The whole process was a catalogue of scandalous behaviour on the part of the BPAS in particular, and the result was devastating for myself, and for my unborn child, who was 'terminated'. As I say, can elaborate on the story, but had not really wanted to bring my own experience into it quite so explicitly.

But trust me, I know what I am talking about. My experience is in a different world to the safe and distant bleatings of Gabi. Unfortunately. I envy her innocence of the reality of this issue. Gabi: you are so, so lucky. Keep it that way.


No, I wouldn't accept it - I would consider it an ill-informed decision, and if I had the option, I would move to a different country. We can only live out our lives under the wing of one or other country and set of beliefs, but to be honest, I would feel happier in a country that saw termination of pregnancy as an extreme and undesirable option ... which, to be fair to the 1967 Abortion Act, is how it was intended to be in this country. And if I had an power in this country, I would insist upon only the proper application of the Act. I would come down like a tonne of bricks on organisations such as the BPAS. Interestingly, its Chairwoman is also a woman who has always known she wouldn't want children ... how great that she gets to spend her life making money out of taking this joy away from other women as well.

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Gabi, it seems to me you are talking mainly, in your discussion, about a minority of women who:

- Use belt and braces contraception, but for whom for some reason this doesn't work, and despite their best efforts, they get pregnant anyhow
and
- Who have a pathological fear of pregnancy and childbirth.

That is minority, when you combine the two factors. It sounds like you are talking about yourself. And maybe we are all talking about ourselves, but my point is that I have experienced termination of a pregnancy, and I have experienced pregnancy, childbirth and being a mother, and I know what it is to be a woman, what my job is, what I am made for, and where I fit - a role which I accept and embrace. And yes, I do feel that my opinion is an informed one, because of my experiences.

But the point you really, really miss is that nobody is telling anybody what do to here, but this ISN'T just about the woman who doesn't want to go through the natural process of having a child. This is about THE CHILD.

And this is about our responsibilities as fertile adults who choose to have sex, which however much we might try to divorce from its natural purpose, WILL result in pregnancy if it possibly can. Which will result in the existence of a child.

I think that women who feel as you do should consider sterilisation - surely that is the sensible option? But I am not saying what you should do - I am just expressing my opinion about people in that situation in general.

And as far as abortion is concerned, without doubt it involves terminating a tiny life, and I think some of our points here are just that the life should be respected, and if people have got pregnant by taking a risk, then they should not escape the consequences of their actions just because it's 'easy' to get out of, by hiding behind some nonsense about a woman being able to do what she wants with her body.


With respect, the evolution of one.

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Liking.


Not liking.

I certainly haven't been trotting out any platitudes. It sounds to me like I'm about the only one on here with any real experience of abortion, and I can tell you, it is unnatural, and that is not an empty label.

It is impossible to come up with a correlative experience for a man, to that of a woman's experience of having her pregnancy medically terminated ... so not sure why I am wasting my breath.

Foreigner 4, this is not about orphanages. It is about responsibility, and the sanctity of life, and respect for women, actually. Where do you think abortion came from? For so many centuries, having a child out of wedlock was a social death sentence, and possibly a literal death sentence in some circumstances. So women in desperation turned to abortion. For damn sure there have also been a hell of a lot of guys who have got such women pregnant and who relied on the existence of abortion to save their skins ... regardless of the terrible process a woman would have to go through to abort.

But: and this is a very very important but: we do not now live in 1540. Or 16, 17 or 1840. We live in 2012. Woman in the societies we are talking about - particularly, in this instance, Poland - are not facing anything that could possibly be construed as even a similar hardship to women in the past. It just isn't on the same page. If a young woman in Poland today gets pregnant by mistake and is distressed about what will happen if she has the baby, then Poland should be looking to upping its support network for such girls, and getting rid of prejudice in society - not offering her an abortion.

It has all become too easy, Foreigner 4 - I think that is what some of us are trying to say. And the idea that a woman has some kind of right to abort, because it is her body, is, to my mind, flawed.

Two people have sex. Either they use contraception, or they wing it, or they use the patented Catholic method guaranteed to ensure pregnancy (withdrawal ; ). If the women gets pregnant, the unborn child belongs to both parents. So both should have a say. In particular, if he doesn't want an abortion, I personally think it would be too cruel to allow the woman to proceed with one. And I bet that in reality, when the baby was born, she would accept and love the baby. Women who haven't been pregnant and had a child really aren't qualified to speak definitively, because they haven't been in that situation. Let them live it, and then say.

We have to strike a balance between respecting the wishes of both parents, the obligation to protect the unborn child, and to support and encourage the mother in her role as just that - mother. For sure, one thing is true: once conception has occurred, nobody's life will be the same again.

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In which case, of course you're going to be pro-abortion. What you don't like about my comments, really, is that I have said pregnancy and children are good things, and you think they are bad, and the idea of getting pregnant by accident and then not being allowed an abortion is monstrous to you ... because then you would have to 'go through' pregnancy and childbirth, and have a child. OK. Now it makes sense. So yes, I can understand why you advocate 'personal choice is personal'. And of course I respect your position, but there are millions of women who feel quite differently to you, so important you make sure your personal choice is just for you. Trust me - who feel absolutely opposite to how you feel.

But everyone's comments here aren't about you, aren't personal - they are just about opinion and morality. When I say 'If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex' - I don't mean you personally, GDH, I mean 'one' - I am using the 'you' in an objective, unpersonal way - a general way.

The question of if someone had risky sex and got pregnant, should they be 'allowed' an abortion because they weren't responsible, they just took a chance - is a good one. Can you answer it?


Yep. This says it. It is this insidious normalisation that is baaaaad.


Yes, yes ... although very often the male partner has a say - freaking out and demanding the woman has an abortion ; )
But agree a million per cent that if he doesn't want an abortion, is a tricky tricky situation.
Nobody wants to force anybody into anything, but the disassociation of sex from procreation is sometimes a dangerous move - gets people into all sorts of trouble ...

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No, that particular comment was about my own personal experience. The cold, hard fact that I can tell what my hormones are doing. I have the only measures that are available to me, such as how I feel.

I have said, several times, that contraception is incredibly easy - just DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RISK GETTING PREGNANT.

Easy. A fact.

I was not advocating any rhythm method ... I was just saying that you were wrong when you said no woman can have any idea about when she is fertile.

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What idiots say that? Presumably far easier to have a leg chopped off. My father had his chopped off, and he said it was a piece of cake.

Giving birth really is something that is an individual experience. I have given birth twice. First time a nightmare, second time I sang Onwards Christian Soldiers in my head (non-religiously - just for the beat), walked up and down, and gave birth in 7 minutes, standing up. It was good, OK, fine, something one could do again without being too much bothered by it. I guess that is how it is supposed to be.

And at the end I was plus gorgeous baby, rather than minus gangrenous leg.

Gabi Da Hun - does that mean you are German?

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Have you ever been pregnant?


You said it. I agree. 'Unlucky' my arse.

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It is possible that the intense emotion they felt, felt like that.


Not far off. I have never really looked into it, but enough to understand that 12 weeks and under, surgical abortion, they inject Pygmy poison into the woman's stomach to open the cervix, then use a hook to rupture the pregnancy and then they suction everything out.

At later stages, babies are 'born' alive, and are killed once out. There is a practice of surgical scissors being used to mash the baby's skull and make it easier to get out. Honestly, I am not making this up. That nun wasn't so far off. Look it up, if you have the heart for it. I have never got past a couple of not-nice photos and the scissors fact. Didn't want to know more.


Don't assume that. The woman might not want to go through pregnancy to full term, delivery baby, hold and love for a second, then have it ripped away from her. Seems an easier option never to see the baby.


Which is fine, but as your whole point is how we should respect the individual woman's experience, not sure how you think it OK to make statements such as


Is that not you telling other women how they should - nay, can only - think and feel, based on your own, individual experience? Mine is different to yours. We might share the same sex, but we are very different. I am tuned to my body's reactions and what is going on. I swim every morning, and I can measure by my energy, mood and even how cold or otherwise the water feels, what stage I am at in the month. That is my experience. You can't tell me I am wrong. It's like me telling you you might think you speak English but in fact you speak Chinese. It is nonsense.

I am not lucky in this sensitivity - I just listen!


?
You have sex. You might get pregnant. You get pregnant. That is not unlucky. Unlucky is a bucket of concrete falls off some scaffolding on your head. Unlucky is you don't smoke and you get lung cancer. It is not that you have sex and you get pregnant.

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Thank you. That is my entire point made.

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: )
And especially to me, as pretty much the sole female contributor of any substance ; )

I'm just a softie. Love babies and would never harm them, and know, from having been pregnant, that as soon as they are there, they are there, however tiny.

People leave us - they die. That is very harsh. But the balancing side is new life. It is what makes us feel ok, what helps us with the hard bits of life. So those tiny little flames of life - they are there to help us. I think. Feel. Not any belief system or religion - just my own conclusion.

Starter for ten:
Have you ever heard a mother say of her three-year-old 'God, I wish I'd known - I would definitely have aborted her?'
Have you ever heard a woman say 'God, I wish I'd known - I would never have had an abortion' ? ...

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Well, I know for example that to rape is wrong. If a rapist tells me that he believes otherwise, I would feel that my belief should take precedence over his. Why? Because his involves violence and pain inflicted on others.

And my point is more subtle and delicate: I believe that women are not told the truth before abortion, and that therefore a lot suffer in a way that they shouldn't have to. So yes, I do think that my beliefs, born of experience, should be given more credence than those of women who have not yet had the experience. Make it a level playing field. Take two women of equal experience, and then say their views are equal.


With respect, are you a woman? Of course I know that the fertile period is more than a day. Of course I know that the body can ovulate almost on demand. But I also know that in an uneventful month, I can tell you with absolute accuracy exactly when I am fertile, and I am right (have checked it, with ovulation kits - I am always right). If a woman does not want to get pregnant, she should not have sex. Very simple.


So tell me, because I am very interested: how does a woman know, if she has never been pregnant and never had a child? And don't load it with 'put through' ...

And mental health issues mean a seriously undermined psychological balance, that leads to pathological disorders such as extreme anxiety, depression, etc. More women suffer this post-abortion than as a mother of a child. And how do we know if a woman is likely to suffer these issues if she has an abortion? Can she know? Should we not help her understand? We who know? Doesn't it work both ways? Shouldn't we be considering the risk to her of PUTTING HER THROUGH an abortion??

Sorry to sound heated, but really, some balance is needed here, in all of this.

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Well, that is a bit sci-fi ... in a bad way (tanks of strangely-coloured liquid housing half-recognisable life forms, etc.) ... it is bad.
I thought they put some back in and kept the rest in the freezer. I don't think they should trash them, if that is what they do. It is all very tricky.

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Seriously - it is actually a question in their list of things to go through with a pregnant woman. I know because I have a friend who is a GP. They have to tick it off the list. 'Check patient is to proceed with pregnancy.' - then they have 'If Yes' and 'If No' paths to follow in terms of how they talk about the pregnancy and what they do next ...

So it isn't based on if they think there might be a problem - it is routine. A routine querying of whether to proceed.