Posts by SeanBM

SeanBM

17 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Cold blooded murder of unborn child for the sake of convenience.

Do you hold the same opinion about In Vitro?

it's easy for people to say all kinds of things when they haven't experienced it themselves.

It's also easy for people to let their emotions be their only guide.

I have yet to hear any argument against my idea of abortion becoming illegal and the horrifying repercussions, i.e. unsafe abortions.

SeanBM

17 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

but it might be able to feel pain, we don't know....

Read this, it'll help
jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429

Scientific research generally indicates that the fetus is incapable of feeling pain until at least the 24th week

SeanBM

17 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

It has potential for life as much as water has potential to become a house...

I am just trying to figure out when human personhood begins, some believe sperm has the potential and therefore it is sacred.

one of the points some of us have been making is that in carrying out abortion while the 'fetus' is small

And others say sperm:

Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted.

first looking at the issue at hand

Enlighten me, what is the issue at hand? I'm talking about abortion, how it is practiced as much if it is legal as when it is not and therefore more dangerous.

it certainly doesn't mean that there's no point in discussing them.

I am here discussing, what's your point?

Abortion is convenient, that's why its widespread.

That's why I mentioned Hansel and Gretel before.

A born baby doesn't possess all things a grown human being have either, but yet the law considers them persons with rights

From two different lives, you get a third, new life, when do you think that happens and what are your thoughts on In Vitro?

SeanBM

17 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Life begins at conception. It is a simple scientific and logical understanding

What are your thoughts on In Vitro?

Okay, so lets take a look at the situation where abortion is illegal.

; abortion rates are similar in countries where the procedure is legal and in countries where it is not according to the World Health Organization

WHO

So people are not going to stop, just because it's illegal.

Unsafe abortions: (illegal abortions)

Women seeking to terminate their pregnancies sometimes resort to unsafe methods, particularly when access to legal abortion is restricted. They may attempt to self-abort or rely on another person who does not have proper medical training or access to proper facilities.

Unsafe abortion is believed to result in approximately 68,000 deaths and millions of injuries annually.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Unsafe_abortion

So making it illegal would appear to kill adults. The psychological trauma that it creates and the lining of gangster's pockets. We live in a far from perfect world, just making something illegal doesn't change much, I am arguing that it would make the world worse,

SeanBM

17 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Sorry - did you miss the bit where I said I have experience termination of a pregnancy?

Yes sorry, I missed that, I should not post when I am tired.

the higher mental functions are inactive ... we normally ask the relatives of the person if they wish to switch the support off.

Do you consider a fetus not to have human personhood before brain function? and after the fetus has brain function the beginning of human personhood?

I believe informed choices and FULL information is required.

I doubt if anyone would disagree on that.

SeanBM

16 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I have experienced pregnancy, childbirth and being a mother, and I know what it is to be a woman, what my job is, what I am made for

But not abortion.

I agree that we all talk about ourselves, at least to a certain extent.

Just because you have given birth and you are content with what you find your role, it does not speak for everyone, none of us do.

I have a question, would you be ready to accept abortion, as an option, if it got a "Yes" vote in a referendum from the democratic society?

With respect, the evolution of one.

I forgot to put a smiley face at the end of that post, soz :)

SeanBM

16 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

It sounds to me like I'm about the only one on here with any real experience of abortion, and I can tell you, it is unnatural, and that is not an empty label.

Have you had an abortion? or what experience are you talking about?

(sorry if I missed it in a previous post)

this is a very very important but: we do not now live in 1540. Or 16, 17 or 1840. We live in 2012.

The point really is, we (as in you and I) don't seem to really know when life begins, the same problem existed back then and in years to come.... who knows?

Liking.

Oh no, the brutal death of a language.

SeanBM

16 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

70% of fertilised embryos are naturally rejected by the womb

In 1677, when Anton Van Leewenhoek first identified sperm and there was much talk of souls and miniature men residing in the seminal fluid. Upon observation it became clear that there were an awful lot of those little guys that never turned into babies!

SeanBM

16 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

As far as I know abortion is illegal in Poland and Ireland only (EU countries)

These seem to be the physical aspects:

Biological markers

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood#Biological_markers

I can't help but think that it's around the time of development of a central nervous system but I don't know.

SeanBM

16 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I don't have any problems with creating lives,

And again we agree, I better quit now before anything changes :)

It's late, night folks.

SeanBM

16 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

better late than never, right ;-)

So long as there is a means of communication I think people always find common ground.

The In Vitro one is weird, i mean say you have a couple that can't conceive and still want their own baby but the church put pressure on the government to decrease that from happening.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilisation#Catholic_objections

It just seems unfair.

"where does the life begin anyway?", and "when do we assign personhood?"

We don't seem to be getting very far on those ones.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I totally agree.

And you said it would never happen ;)

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

It is possible that the intense emotion they felt, felt like that.

Feel like it? they were not talking about emotions and it certainly isn't something to misinform young teens in a classroom with.

understand that 12 weeks and under, surgical abortion

Ah come on, that's very different from a coat hanger and agian in the disguise of "education".

At later stages, babies are 'born' alive, and are killed once out.

These people had their abortions in England not down a dark ally.

The woman might not want to go through pregnancy to full term, delivery baby, hold and love for a second, then have it ripped away from her

I was trying to say that there isn't just a woman who wishes she never had an abortion and the other alternative only being that she wished she never had the child (it was implied she kept the child).

I am tuned to my body's reactions and what is going on.

A woman tried to have sex with me without protection using the calendar, not in a million years would I do that.

since there are many things you can do to avoid pregnancy, there's absolutely no need for abortion.

i would strongly argue not enough, the snip is off the cards and RCC tells every Catholic that condoms, the pill are immoral.

You have sex. You might get pregnant. You get pregnant. That is not unlucky.

It is if you use protection.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I believe that women are not told the truth before abortion, and that therefore a lot suffer in a way that they shouldn't have to.

Well I think we all agree that education is the best way to inform people of the repercussions of their actions and choices.

I had religion class with a nun in Ireland when I was15. She played videos of interviewed women who had abortions and they testified that they could hear the baby screaming inside them (not even close to possible). She also told us that an abortion is done by medication which melts the baby or by something like a wire coat hanger that is inserted into the woman which is twisted around and scrambles the babies brains.

Natasia,I have heard a woman say that she wished she'd never had an abortion.

I'd assume that a woman who had a baby she didn't want would put her child up for adoption.
I mean it's not a simple either or scenario.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

To me,you're alive when your heart is beating, simple as that.

So why are you against abortions if it's before 6 weeks if it's not alive?

and I'm sure, most of them weren't forced to murder anyone and still did it... because it's natural...

now you are just trying to put words in my mouth.

of course we do and we're very serious about it too, are we, Sean BM? ...

You said we are here to reproduce, when clearly some people don't reproduce.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I already answered it above.

You edited your post, do you mean you believe the part you put in bold?
This part:

Others believe it is when the heart beats for the first time (about 6 weeks after conception)

If so, then do you consider it not an abortion before 6 weeks?

I wonder if all of those who murder people, feel the same way about it as you do and if they do, it must be much easier for them to live with it.

I am sure that people who were forced to murder someone do not have it easy.

The reason for us to be here is to reproduce

Everyone? even Nuns? :)

Btw. I'll never agree with you here.

You never have to agree with me, we are discussing different points of view.

what they view as an unethical process as unnatural.

That makes much more sense in this context.

But again, ethics vary and change considerably (I get the feeling I am might start a thread on this in which I'll be the only one to have posted:)

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Many people believe

What do you believe?
You have some very strong opinions about it, I just thought it would help me understand when you thought a human is and why then.

Some people believe women are baby making machines, others that every sperm is sacred, I tried to go though a few of the beliefs people have earlier.

again SeanBM, will you call it natural when YOU murder someone?

I don't plan on killing anyone, if I ever did, it would be for a very good reason.
And natural, yes.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

if the woman doesn't want to have the baby and the man withholds consent for the abortion,he has to assume sole responsibility

I get you now, thanks for the clarification.

I agree, that's why my understanding is it's more up to the woman.

They say giving birth is equivalent to having a limb severed off.

I honestly can't tell you

I honestly can't tell you either.
I don't know.

their argument is that it is an artificial leg-up - an intervention - and they are against any intervention, as God is to make the choices.

Maybe, i thought it was because of the fetus' that don't make it because they produce a few to get the one that has the best chances.

is so liberal

I would never like to see abortion being taken likely and yet I know it is to some people.

goes to the doctor and says she finds herself unexpectedly pregnant, the doctor will say 'Have you decided whether or not to keep the baby?

The other end of that is making it law that they have no choice if it is illegal.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

again, when you murder someone, are you gonna call it natural?

People (and other aniimals) have been murdered all throughout history, it's nothing new, it's not even unusual.
We have wars for goodness sake.

When do you think a human is formed?

(third time asking but third time can be the charm:)

For the sake of curiosity, could you flesh out your extrapolation a bit more (everything being natural = right and wrong are nonexistent)?

That's a whole thread in itself.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Discussing the rights and wrongs (morality) of opinions because they are all part of nature.

I just get this feeling that when the "unnatural" argument is brought up about homosexuals, abortions, GM foods etc...

It seems that people are saying we should all be living in a forest eating berries and that whatever is the most common is "natural" and whatever is outside of their "norms" is unnatural.

That everyone should go to school, church on a Sunday, to college, get a job, marry, have two and a half children etc and anything else is somehow 'unnatural'.

Maybe I have misunderstood what has been said but without clarification that's what it sounds like to me.

you have no right whatsoever to legislate your moral beliefs onto others, unless you can prove to me otherwise

Well put.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I think that if he won't give his consent;then he should have to sign something pledging to take full responsibility of the child

Well in essence, isn't that child support?

I don't at all feel that to avoid responsibility is a justifiable reason for abortion.

In your view, is the morning after pill the same as an abortion? what about condoms or having the snip?

you're deciding about a newborn life.

Exactly when is a human formed, in your view?

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

a "moral force" guiding evolution.

The way I see it is, certain moralities work under certain conditions.
Morality has changed over the years, what was acceptable two thousand years ago would be seen as shockingly criminal today.
I mean evolution has guided morality.

If we accept morality as part of nature which I think it is the discussion about natural and unnatural is valid and we are back at square one.

I don't follow how we are back to square one?

What's her choice? To keep the baby or kill it?

To have a baby or not.

(we do too)

I can't think of a legal way to get a woman pregnant without her concent, yet that possibility exists for women.

kill a baby

So when do you think human life begins?

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I think that what the RCC is saying is that we should give life the chance to be created, and that if it manages to make it, we should cherish it.

So why are they so against In Vitro?

MPs in Poland have begun debating controversial plans to liberalise IVF treatment amid staunch opposition from the Roman Catholic Church.

One archbishop has said Catholic MPs face excommunication if they opt to regulate in-vitro fertilisation in the country

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11605216

Nationalism, Racism and morality

Thanks Pgtx but I was thinking more about the argument that ''morality is part of evolution and can be seen in other animals" type of thread.

just empty words in any country where abortions can be performed without the express written consent of the father

Years ago I probably would have agreed with you.
That is until I saw what women have to go through to conceive a child.
Now I think that the father may try to convince the woman but it is ultimately her choice.

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

nature doesn't have morality.

I think it does, I think morality is a process of evolution.

I don't want to stray too much off topic, I was going to start a thread about it some time ago but never got around to it.

Without making a big song and dance about it this is a simple way to explain it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Evolution

moralities are sets of self-perpetuating and ideologically-driven behaviors which encourage human cooperation.

unnatural

Perhaps this is a matter of semantics?
By "unnatural" do you mean "man-made"?

If not then there seems to be a predictable 'life' that does what it ought to and anything else is not usual (could I use not usual instead of unnatural?).

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

wow no why should I be?

I was just wondering because you say that life begins when the sperm enters the egg, that is when a human begins and if you terminate at that point it is killing a human.

IVF usually entails the creation of multiple human embryos to ensure a greater chance of successful implantation. Therefor some are disguarded and I was just wondering by your clear definition, would you also consider that killing a human?

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

A sperm isn't a human life. An ovule isn't.

Some would disagree, not me but in my last post I tried to put as many ideas of life and when people thinks it should begin and end.

But when they fuse, they suddenly become a life. From the very second they fuse, because from that moment the person is created.

So are you against in vitro?

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

From the very beginning. If you do not agree, please provide your definition.

This post got me thinking about the beginning.
Not happy with my last post, I decided to put what I know of as people's beliefs (very briefly) about when is termination of a life.

I'll put my own thoughts in italics and brackets at the end of each point.

A) We are here to reproduce.

Eugenics
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics,
Gene-centered view of evolution, breeding (women are baby producing machines).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centered_view_of_evolution

(I do not approve of setting up farms and focing people to breed, either by misinforming them or indoctrination)

B) Pre-Fertility control.

Birth control, being able either physically or mentally (celibacy or abstinence), vasectomy, tubal ligation, condoms,
Calendar-based contraceptive methods
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar-based_contraceptive_methods

(I think it is the right of the person whether they choose to do this or not and nobody should dictate to them)

C) Consensual post-Fertility control.

Morning after pill. termination of pregnancy (the timescale seems to vary widely depending on country).

D) Non-consensual post-Fertility control.

One-child policy

E) Infanticide.

Hansel and Gretel. most would agree this to be out right murder but it is not always clear cut:

Crying Baby Dilemma

F) Capital punishment.

I heard an interesting quote that George W Bush is a perfect fisherman, he's antiabortion but pro death penalty, he throws the fish back into the water and gets them later when they are big.

(Personally I have cognitive dissonance with this one, I don' believe in killing killers but I would want to kill the person who killed my loved ones but think it mad that extreme pro-lifers would kill a doctor for the sake of cells.)

G) Senicide (the killing of old people)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senicide

Although many cultures believe this is killing, it has been in practice for practical reasons in many cultures.

(I used to work in a not particularly nice old folks home, it is comparable to leaving them somewhere to die).

we are born unto this world, we are part of nature, we and our actions are natural.

I agree. I could never understand how people thought we were somehow outside of nature.

(right break over, back to studying:)

SeanBM

15 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

From the very beginning.

Okay, when is the beginning?
After fertilisation of the egg? before?

Some believe that sperm should not be 'wasted' because it has the potential for life, others believe that a woman should not be able to make herself sterile because of the potential for life.

if we are going to call a group of cells "potential for life" then my question is at what stage do people on here see it?

The intention of having unprotected sex could be seen as the "beginning".

If you do not agree, please provide your definition.

I have never really looked in to it but I wouldn't say a sperm is a person and even if it has the potential to become one, I would not say not using that potential is wrong.

I also doubt if a fertilised egg is a person, although again it has the potential.

I have never been in a position were I would have the option of an abortion.
Some of my friends have had abortions, they are illegal in Ireland so they had to go to England to have them.

I do find it really strange that people can't sterilise themselves though, that's how far back some people believe the ''potential to create a person'' goes and how far they are willing too impede in other people's lives..

Yet celibacy or abstinence are in fact doing the same thing but that seems to be honored.

Ironside

You are probably the only person I have considered to put on an ignore list only because you never have a point to make and you're insufferably boring.

SeanBM

14 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Gabi was talking about the UK.

Thanks for the clarification.

,To abort is not natural.To have a baby is.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, there were 1.21 million abortions performed in the United States in 2008, the most recent year for which data is available. This amounts to 3,322 abortions per day.

Are you saying these people are unnatural?

And under what authority do you make such a judgment?

SeanBM

14 Oct 2012

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I've asked for the 'snipsnip', In fact I asked two doctors. None of the doctors agreed to it.

It seems they didn't tell you the whole truth.

Law in Poland:

Google translate:

The Polish almost no adjustment, which directly relates to contraceptive sterilization procedures. In particular, it has not been provided for in the legislation as a method of birth control.
In Article 156 CC is listed act of injustice, which inflict is punishable by imprisonment:
"§ 1.Kto causing grievous bodily harm in the form of:
1) depriving a man of vision, hearing, speech, ability to procreate,
2) other serious injury, serious illness or long-term incurable, life-threatening illness actually, permanent mental illness, in whole or in substantial inability to work in a profession or a permanent serious disfigurement or deformation of the body, be liable to imprisonment from one year to 10 years '

This provision clearly refers to a situation in which the victim / and he / and a victim of violence. Meanwhile, the provision relating to damage caused by violence applies to situations in which the patient / ka voluntarily subjected to this method of contraception.

Meanwhile, in accordance with recognized human rights, conscious and voluntary renunciation of their own fertility is a fundamental human right. So the treatments performed by doctors at the request of the persons concerned, not only can not be treated as a crime, but should be available along with other methods of contraception.

Polish practice:

In practice, in Poland tubal ligation in women is sometimes performed during cesarean section, medical indications, when another pregnancy would endanger her life or health. This surgery is performed, however, less and less. There are no rules or standards that regulate availability of application in similar situations. Doctors avoid carrying out these procedures, even for medical reasons, claiming that it is illegal.
Men who are interested in this form of contraception, seek solutions on their own. The Federation of practice shows that many men seeking to perform a vasectomy. Frequently go to the clinics to the west. Polish doctors, mostly considering vasectomy for an act prohibited by law, refuse to comply with it. It is very difficult to find a doctor who will be carrying out these procedures.
In the media, such as websites, there is a widespread belief that sterilization (contraceptive) is legally prohibited. Please note that there is no provision for voluntary sterilization carried out in order to secure contraceptive.
Controversy over the current legal status is such that in practice sterilization on request treated as a permanent method of birth control, practically it is not available even for medical reasons in women.

It sounds to me like you women are baby making machines and should get no say in the matter, after all it was Eve who took the first bite.

On the other hand, an unborn child is a life and that is true with or without your notions of God, Allah, Yahweh, etc. Anyone trying to debate that is simply uninformed.

When is an unborn child a life? two months into pregnancy? two days? the twinkle in the woman's and man's eye? before that?