History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Still are only 2 countries more. There are, give or take 193 countries in the world :)


Can I give that answer? :)

But seriously, you did get what I was aiming at with my post directed at you, right?


I said that many times. But what the heck do I know, I'm a Jewish/Communist/Antagonist of the Polish state who fails to see the gloriousness only and yet points also at some less glorious periods in time. If you would do that about Dutch history, I'd be happy to respond to that. I'd be not so very happy about the less pleasant parts, but given the fact that any country has less pleasant parts, I'd discuss about it. I for certainly wouldn't deny them or call the person who points them out a Netherlands-Hater or pour insults on top of them just for pointing those epoches out. But it seems here that some of the visitors feel personally attacked when you point out less beautiful and glorious episodes. But like I said many times; it's all part of their coming of age. They've been under the ice cap of Communism for 50 years after WW2, they didn't have time like us to put things in perspective yet, but I believe they will, someday. They have the bad luck that most of Europe had indeed the chance to move on after WW2, whereas they hadn't. It's just starting. Ppl like Jan T. Gross are a first sign that change is happening in the way the Poles look at their history. There's nothing wrong of being proud of one's history, but this shouldn't lead a person to be completely blind for the not so beautiful epoches.

Anyhow, it's the usual suspects who are on their hind legs.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


I didn't say it was a problem ONLY in Poland. There are more countries who still do that, but in most countries they have come to terms with the past. And no, I haven't heard of that particular case. But I can name you Dutch cases which deal with the matter and you probably would never have heard from them. Pieter Geyl's Groot Nederlandsche Gedachte (Pieter Geyl's Greater Netherlands Idea) was such a case. It has been rebuked since long. Nowadays those sentiments don't play a role in Dutch history-circles anymore.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


For you goes the same comment as I gave MediaWatch.
I have no patiences and tolerance for idiots like you anymore. Why don't you go blame it all on the commies? At least you know how to do that right and it so nicely distracts yourself from what everybody else already knows. The rest of your post has no relevance whatsoever to what I said earlier, it just shows your anti Jewish mentality.


Of course, after all, why would you want to admit that what those "Poland-bashers" say might actually be true? No, it's easier to make things a bit bearable as the shock of the fact that it wasn't all as glorious as you guys think it was might kill you someday. Better postpone it while you can, for it will come, it's just a matter of time. Until then, keep it rosey-red and don't think that Poles could ever done anything bad; after all, they were ALWAYS the victims? How can ppl who are every god-given area be the victim of sb or something, be the the jerries, the commies, the prussies, aussies, russies or alien invaders from the planet XLK-974, do ever anything wrong? They are all innocent lambs and all the others are evil wolves.

One Polish historian, I forget the name, said:


I think that says it pretty much all.


I Poland perhaps it's still used like that. In most other countries they have grown over it and acknowledge that what they glorified in the days of national identity-forming wasn't quite true. Admitting guilt is part of the growing process. A number of reactions on here is proof that some haven't yet.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


No. And it's not "favourably colour Polish history a little", what these ppl do, it's outright denial and lying of some events that actually took place and are documented. And they deny it because it doesn't fit in their perspective concept of a glorious Poland. And that is just as bad if you want to talk in terms of good and bad. When faced with facts they just say that it's all lies, preferrably Communist lies as the Communist are the favourit clothing hanger for all faults. Ppl need a scapegoat - nothing really changes. But I think it's just part of the coming of age of Poland. In time it will learn to accept her history in full with the good things AND the bad things. Give it one or two generations. But your remarks show that you're not ready yourself - check the wording again and you will know. And besides, history is not meant for propaganda, history is the science of what happened.

Edit: and when ppl come to terms with the past, perhaps that story that the Nazis were left-wing will disappear, although the right-wing will keep on claiming that to shift blame. But it's the biggest nonsense I've heard in years. And I come here two and a half years, so that says sth :)


If ppl don't learn from it, it's pretty useless.


No, as long as there's no time machines, we will never know. And time travel, alas, is impssbl. It helps to think in time/space though.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Pointing out failures or periods of failure is by no means downplaying achievements. It's just part of the bigger picture. And you NEED to know the bigger picture, else you get stranded in a kind of particularism which bring about a skewed world view and particularily a crooked view on one's own history. Unfortunately a lot of the ppl on here have fallen victim of this particularism as it shows.

But that wasn't what my post with Kielce as example was all about. But I am sure you know what it was about. You're smart enough to understand what I was trying to say there.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Indeed. However, this one does gloriously fail to see the point I was making. This wasn't about Poles vs Jews, this was about history writing and the keying of milestones within historic timelines and their direct aftermath as well as its repercussions in the long run. Kielce is the perfect example to demonstrate this - yet this bigot comes along and turns it into one of his infamous anti Jewish rants. I've been patient long enough with this nonsense. Comes a time that you have to say it's been enough.

>^..^<

M-G (sorry Seanus)

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [147]

I learned British English in school, but speak American English - a lot of native English speaking friends of mine all say that I speak with an American accent. I prefer it anyway because it's easier English and it just sounds nicer with cooler expressions. Proper British English has always a bit of "stiffness" over it. And Scottish English I at times truly have trouble understanding :) Welsh and Australian English sound a bit the same to me, albeit that the Australian accent sometimes tends to sound like the accent in (London-) Derry in Northern Ireland, which is about the most hideous English accent I have heard so far. Oirish English is distinctly different from British English, even when you have a perfect English speaking Irishman.

I especially like the accent they have in the Southern States of the US. "Y'all come back now ye hear?"

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Will you pls get the fcuk out of here? Pls fcuk off. You already made it clear that you don't like Jews many times before and fail miserably to see the point. So now just fcuk off.


No. He should just get the fcuk out of here. I have never seen a ppl who manage to blame deeds they performed themselves on the victims or on sb else instead of taking responsibility for it themselves. Perhaps the word "responsible" isn't in the Polish dictionary, let alone "historical responsibility? Well on the other hand, it's not collectively, I wouldn't want to say that, but it just seems that all those bigots who do are united on PF.

>^..^<

M-G (losing definitive patience with this Polish nonsense)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


The difference between this and the Kielce pogrom was that the Kielce pogrom took place AFTER WW2. And that's the significance of this incident. Repeat, it took place hardly A YEAR AFTER THE HOLOCAUST. Doesn't that ring a bell by now? What do you think the average European would've thought about that? That guy doesn't think: "hey, it's probably the Soviets because they are in charge!" NO! He didn't think like that. He only read that again there were Jews murdered for whatever reason, right after the biggest mass murder ever on that very same ppl.

I really don't know how I should get that significance through to you, but put it in simple logic: this is what the average newspaper reader read back then: 4th of July 1946, Jews murdered in Poland. 14 months after the Holocaust ended. And keep in mind that in 1946 Europeans were still grateful to the Soviet Union for their tremendous war effort. Then you read news like this. What you think the average newspaper reader will first think? I will answer that: it happened in Poland, so Poles did it. Damn them! That's what the average reader in 1946 thought when he read about the incident. He didn't think of the complex new situation that was going on in Poland at the time, he just thought: darn, those Poles do hate Jews. And if this isn't clear enough as to why the Kielce incident was so important in the image forming of the European about Poles as being anti semite, then I give up. I cannot make it much clearer.

I will gather some material for you. Give me some time as I'm busy as it is.


Perhaps; but they were still Poles.


I didn't describe the events as such, I described the perpetrators. And like I said it were Poles that committed them. And the question whether or not this incident was used by the Soviets in order to give Poland a bad name abroad, is not really relevant in this respect. That came, if it happened, later on, not at the moment the actual events ocurred.

I will say it again, no matter how you turn it, it were Poles that committed this crime. Be this Poles more or less hired by Soviets, or members of the local dance club, that really doesn't matter. What matters is who the ppl abroad saw as the perpetrators and to them it was the Poles. And they were right back then. Political side effects are not yet relevant in order to put this fact firm. These were afterwards.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poland is great Mother of all Slavs from Baltic to Balkan [177]

Don't know, but it was only 01:30 AM so the information was very reliable.

:)

>^..^<

M-G (woah, everything comes from Serbia nowadays)

History / Poland is great Mother of all Slavs from Baltic to Balkan [177]

Some well-informed Poles I talked to in a pub last weekend informed me that Dracula has in fact also Serbian roots. Are there still many vampires in Serbia?

>^..^<

M-G (if anybody can enlighten us on this, it's my dear friend Crow)

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]


Where in MN? Is it close to the Twin Cities, Mankato, Saint Cloud or what city? I'm just curious as I have been in Minnesota loads of times - my bro lives there.

>^..^<

M-G (didn't see many Polish surnames there, though; much more Scandinavian and German)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Ok, I will address one point: first of all, this was an example. Secondly, no it's not a superficial and/or general view as you take two opposites and compare them to each other. You will find that even the most opposite views have certain points which are the same. Reading in just one corner of events leaves one with a very one-sided view on things. And that's not the purpose of history. Some amateur historian on this forum said that history teaches ppl. It does, but only when you're a history teacher :) For the rest it's a quest to find an as accurate as pssbl view on things and in reality this comes down to the most neutral view. And a neutral view in turn you can only get when you read material from both sides. That is what the purpose of history is.

It's like watching a football match: you have fans from club A and fans from club B and there's a group of ppl who are neither. The ones who are neither fan of A nor B have the best view on the match as they are not clouded in their opinion by their love for a particular club.

You could go and read all concerning the matter, but then you spend way too much time on one particular event. Furthermore, you will have to do that with every event and by the time you get a clear point of view on all the matters, you're way past your retirement age. I read as much as I can from both sides and try to come with a most clear view on things. Sometimes this is favourable and sometimes it's not. It's as simple as that.

Previously mentioned Kielce incident, for example, was committed by Poles. Be they Communists, Catholics, Anarchists or Hopsasasa Polka Dancers, it doesn't matter. It weren't Russians or Germans who did it. It were Poles. And the circumstances under which things took place are open to debate, but one fact remains undisputed in all circles and that is that it were Poles who committed it. I read many sources dealing with the issue, yes, Polish sources as well as far as they were translated. But no matter how coloured the descriptions were, nobody, not the Polish historians, not the other historians claims it were (Communist) Russians who did it. They all say it was Poles who did this. And a Communist Pole is still a Pole, right?

Given this, what you think the reaction was in the rest of Europe and the world, who just had come to the discovery of the horrors that happened during the Holocaust? What you think their reaction would be when they heard that an angry mob in some godforgotten place in the middle of nowhere does just exactly the same? What would you do if you heard about it and you were living in some other country, just learning about the Holocaust? You probably would get angry. See? Everybody always wonders as to why other ppl look upon the Poles as being anti semite; well I think this Kielce incident played a huge part in it, hammering into the psyche of post-war Europe.

Hope it's clear now. Some work lies waiting for you. Good luck. I'm sure you can do it. You're a good kid and I don't hate you at all (I don't hate anybody for that matter), albeit a bit flamboyant most of the time. I think you will get better if you just put in some work and try to read some other sources. If you want me to, I can give you tips for good material, just ask.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

See, Ironside, you prove my point to the core. Everything I say is dead wrong and you jump on your hind legs over it. Every time, over and over again. It gets old and boring. And: don't call me a Communist. I am not and I have never been. Calling everybody who disagrees with you a Communist again proves my point once more. I'm just tired of it after trying many times as somehow I liked you, but you react the very same way every time, over and over again. It really gets overboard now. This complete and utter denial of valid facts just gets on my nerves. Never thought it would come to this point. Gave you a second and a third chance, but no hope for recovery.

I have read decent, unbiased books about Church history, probably different ones than you did as some of them were written by Catholic Historians and some by non-Catholic Historians. Not by Catholics as everybody knows before starting to read where the plot is heading to. You'd be surprised how many very decent books there are in the West. But probably not the kind amateur-historians like you will ever read. I'll give you a tip: as a project, read some publications concernng Holocaust and anti semitism published by the Simon Wiesenthal Institute and make notes. After that, read (Polish or non-Polish) historians that approach the same matter with a different angle that may contradict to the publications of the SWI and make notes too. After you've done all this, compare the notes from the first reading session with those of the second session, compare them and find the greatest common divider(s). Sum them up, take out all the unnecessary noise and distill the essence. Then you will have a clear and neutral view on the matter, in which you have elements of both views yet it has become your own. That would be good for you. That's how I do it and always have done it and it's probably the best way to come to true objective conclusions. You should try that too.

And I suppose you're a big fan of Norman Davies too? Haven't looked in that particular thread yet, but I am sure you will pop up there sooner or later.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

And it seems here that things heat up pretty quickly :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

Is insulting the one you don't agree with also the Polish way? If it is, it's not really a Glorious trait of the Glorious Ppl, isn't it?

Btw: Groucho is always great, yes :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Well, then maybe it's time to join the big happy European family and learn that the Polish way is not applicable everywhere and that not everybody appreciates to be disagreed with for the sake of disagreement. I have nothing against a good and thorough discussion (as far this is pssbl with some of them "historical experts" on here), but that is sth completely different than constantly going against what one is saying. For a while it may work, but after that it just starts to annoy. I've brought in pretty good arguments here and all I hear constantly is that I'm being ignorant of the Great Glorious Polish State and the Great Glorious Ppl of Poland who just couldn't do anything wrong, even if they tried to, that I'm a liar, and I'm being insulted over and over again by the same persons who start immediately crying when you return the favour, that I'm anti Polish or whatever. Yet none of these belligerents have successfully rebuked any of my arguments so far. So in a way I'm not worried, it just annoyed me, this constantly disagreeing and disagreeing and disagreeing. If you disagree with me, fair enough, but come with decent arguments, not with the standard Glorious Poland propaganda -guess that's one of the things the commies left behind locked in Polish minds- or with the Pro Catholic BS that I've heard over and over again and again and again and again, they are defending an institution that has been horny for power every since it's got a foothold in Europe after kicking out the original religions and nowadays makes it a sport to whitewash pedophiles - unbelievable that some still want to defend such an instution that's rotten to the core. It had the chance to substantially cleanse itself lately, but it's all peace and quiet again, so I take it that yet again, nothing gets done about the problem they have. Missed chance, I would say, but it fits in the image they have by now.

Prague was not destroyed because there was no fighting involved - France and Britain just gave her to the Germans in exchange for 18 months of prolonged peace. And that what this remark was aimed at: sb said that Poland was betrayed by the Allies in 1939 and when it was all over, it was dumped behind the Iron Curtain. Within that context, the Czechs were just as much screwed as the Poles were, if not worse. Only within this context this remark was placed. Not in the light of later events.

>^..^<

M-G (darn)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

You know what, I really don't care anymore if you're disappointed. If I say black, you say white and if I say white, you say black. You're just disagreeing with me for disagreement's sake and that is so very boring and annoying. It not only annoys me, you know, others as well.

But a few points anyway and I am sure you will disagree with me, of course you will disagree with me as you obviously don't have a clue - proven by yourself over and over again:

- The Commies are gone. No need to keep going on about them. They left 20 years ago. That means they are gone, vanished, disappeared, finito, basta, NOT THERE ANYMORE.

- The Czechs were even more screwed and betrayed by the West than you guys were. Cooked and given away on a silver platter to Germany and forbidden to even fight. All in the name of peace. And after the war the true allies were dumped behind the Iron Curtain. So also in that respect Poland is not alone. At least you guys got the chance to fight. They didn't even get that because France and Britain forbade it for "peace in our time". "Our time" lasted 18 months in total; Czechoslovakia was sold for 18 months of peace. During the war CZ was split up, humiliated and kicked dead; and what was left of it was made a marionet-state. And after the war as a thank you for saving Chamberlain's face, they were dumped. And you guys complain that you were betrayed by the West?

- Actually the Commies weren't in power in Kielce in those days. As you may know or may deny, it was a Polish officer who made the decision NOT to stop the events during the incident. It were Polish citizens who perpetrated the deed; how on earth can you blame the Communists for this??

- About your remarks concerning religion: hahahahahahaha...Haaaaahahahahahahaha...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! What an excruciating nonsense. I would suggest you read a book about Church history and then one that spans about 2000 years. Then, once you've done this, you can come back and mingle in the discussion, not being biased or trebled by any religious objection or indoctrination.

Good Night.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Life / Polish authors, books & literature. [95]

Yes - some decent (translated) new material would be nice. I haven't seen any decent new books here in Easons for a while now, so any recommendations are welcome. Maeve Binche doesn't exactly move me.

>^..^<

M-G (bored)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


It's an easy excuse, which is used way too often on this forum. When will they stop using the commies as an excuse and take up responsibility for their own deeds? I guess it's typical Polish to do so. Poland is not the only country to be occupied by the commies, but I've so far never heard of any post WW2 pogroms against Jews other than in Poland and Russia. And those other countries had big portions of Jews within their borders as well. But instead of looking in your own backyard, it's of course much and much easier to blame the commies for all of it. Also their inbred hatred of Jews is of course thanks to the commies. Could it be that they are just naturally anti semites? Heck no, that would mean taking responsibility for their own deeds. No, let's blame the commies yet again. Well guess what, anti semitism is still there and the commies have long gone. Wonder how they explain that?

Kielce? Communist did that. Hitler was right-wing? Communist propaganda. Poles perpetrated nasty business between 1935-1939? All commie lies. And the list goes of course on.

It's very tiring and above all it doesn't show any matureness. It's like the murderer who says he did it because his parents abused him. Or in this case, his grandparents abused his parents.

But I guess it will take a few decades still for Poland to overcome this. They will get there, just a matter of time.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Stop dragging the commies into everything. You've had no Communism for about 20 years, time to call it quits blaming everything on them. It looks a bit childish and refusing to take responsibility for one's own deeds.


You should go work for Xerox. They make excellent copiers.

If you have spiritual needs, you go read a book or go meditate. You don't need religion. Religion is an archaic artifactal leftover from a time when ppl indeed needed explanations for the things they could not explain themselves. The Church has scandalously abused this need by terrorizing ppl into submission, while living off their flock's proceeds like parasites, while producing nothing but fear. On the side it has created wars, quests for power and has refused any form of renewal and resisted any form of change either by burning the reformists or creating an atmosphere of hatred towards the ppl who wanted change. Some say witch hunts and -trials were the Church's answer to sociological changes (women becoming more and more equal to men). I cannot subscribe this statement yet as I haven't read myself into it, but it makes sense, given the Church's policy of maintaining it's state of power of the ppl it has as Deo Mundo. When it turned out that Muslims were starting to take over the Holy Land of Israël, they created a mass hysteria in order to be able to recruit enough soldiers to go and "liberate" the Holy Land of Israël. On the way to Israël, many innocent bystanders in the form of Jews, Muslims or anybody else who didn't feel urged were brutally savaged and killed, all in the name of religion. Wherever Christians took over the role of the existing religion (without asking the natives whether they agreed or not) tolerance made way for intolerance. Compare the events in Spain and other countries where Catholicism became the dominant religion after Islam or Judaism had been the dominant ones before. In the 21st century a lot of things that needed to be explained have been explained by science and ppl have become more and more aware of themselves. They know now that they have the right to think for themselves and that they don't need a Church anymore to decide what they can or can't do. This, the reasons I have given above and the fact that we now have politicians to take care of matters, can only lead to one conclusion: we don't need religion anymore. Churches are beautiful buildings and I like to visit one in any new city I visit. I go there to see the architecture, art and the like. Furthermore I see them as relics of a mistake we collectively made thousands of years ago and for which we had to suffer until some 50 odd years ago when we realised it didn't matter anymore.


For most things are religion-based and therefore religion is to blame. It deprives ppl of clear and rational thinking and instead find the easy way out. The easy way out of not having to take the responsibility of their deeds themselves, but blaming God or "the will of God" and being afraid to praise themselves for an accomplishment they made, instead thanking God for it. In the latter case I soberly would ask: "so, you made it through school? And you thank God for it? Did you cheat? Did you have God come over to your place and do your homework, your tests and attendence for you? No? Then why do you thank God? Thank yourself for it and be proud of your accomplishments. It's no shame when you are proud of what you've done. When it's sth good, of course."

>^..^<

M-G (shadaroba)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


And I am not allowed to say that? Just because I am a historian, I was able to see the good and the bad sides of religion throughout the centuries and I have seen that the bad sides far outnumber the good sides (heck, in the Middle Ages it was virtually a political system), therefore I've come to the conclusion that religion doesn't offer any substantial to mankind and shouldn't have a place in 21st century society anymore.

I see you didn't study history, no need to give me a lecture on what history actually is. Not all historians are conservatists, you know. Ever heard of post-modern narrative history? No? read Braudel and you will know. It's easy accessible stuff, even for amateur-historians like you.

>^..^<

M-G (history as a science made a big shift towards post-modernism at the time I was in college, actually a little before that)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Of course not. I don't want you to forget them. Just like I won't forget the KZ's in which my family perished. But you can't use them as you compare ideologies as everybody knows they were the same. Ah well, in the gulags they didn't have gaschambers as far as I know. Pls see the edits that I made to my post.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


You know you pop up with these things over and over again. What has that to do with Nazis? They were a totalitarian régime, of course they are going to bear resemblences to other totalitarian régimes, but that has nothing to do with the quintessence of the matter at hand.*) That's perhaps the mistake you and the others make in your reasoning in this discussion. And do me a favour, don't call me commie again, as I am not a commie. You're right-wing, but not a fascist, hence I don't call you a fascist. I am left-wing, but not a Communist, pls bear that in mind, ok? That's just black and white viewing and it's rather insulting to me.

*): Pinochet had camps, prosecutions, random killings and so on. So did the Colonels of Argentina, Batista, Pol Pot, Mao, Idi Amin, Bokassa, Franco, Salazar and a couple of others of your friendly neighbourhood dictators.


Yeah, when sb holds such a grudge towards anything left, it's hard to convince that person anyway. They have to find out themselves. I know that I am right, but try and convince ppl like that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Ah, so all them neo-Nazis are in fact Romans and Veda-spiritualists because they use Roman greetings and Veda imagery?

Edit: but again, you go tell them neo-Nazis that they're in fact left-wingers and that they are de facto everything they hate. Good luck :) Wonder if they were so dreadfully mislead by the commie-propaganda too, like we all are in the West.

No, I will write a concluding post in that particular thread and then leave it to be. There is no point in discussing with sb who is so convinced of their own wrong ideas.


Perhaps, but for which part are the Nazis best known for? Their economics or their militairy ventures/racial ideology?

>^..^<

M-G (gets that all the time - apparently my sig appeals to the imagination of ppl)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

True, Seanus; details are nice, but they only serve to illustrate the bigger picture. But it's not only him, there's more here who do that. That wouldn't be so bad if it weren't that they actually draw conclusions out of those details/incidents for the bigger picture. A good example is that nonsense that Hitler and his Nazis were left-wingers. The ppl who state such base themselves on details, not on the bigger picture. Using elements of Socialism doesn't make you a Socialist, just like using Roman standards and greetings doesn't make you a Roman or using old Veda symbols doesn't make you a Veda-spiritualist. All missed chances to get a clear view, I would say.

>^..^<

M-G (busy)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Well, you had some trouble with them Catholic kings, didn't you? William 3 was invited by the English to be their king as they couldn't stand their rightful king anymore and wanted to prevent what happened to Charles 1.

>^..^<

M-G (Stuarts?)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

Indeed. It's actually pretty sad.


Well, everybody knows that's a forgery.

Let's just assume Iron is a sad person.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


You know what the difference is between Le Pétomane (Joseph Pujol) and Iron? Le Pétomane did it for entertainment :)

youtube.com/watch?v=qpB3ME_Xem0

If you think of it like this, even Iron will get amusing :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


I have to go with Harry on this one: what about Silesia and Prussia?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)