News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

To decide to abort a human being.


No, that is a human being. The moment of personhood can be debated, but regardless it's still about a stage of development, the person (or potential person) always is from conception a human being.


I'll take that as a typical Euro swipe at American capital punishment, which is not germane to this discussion because capital punishment is about a form of justice-punishment of a murderer- not an innocent human being, such as a human child in the womb.

But, do you advocate judicial killing?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Says you who will not have the opportunity to decide.


And where it's illegal extant people kill (soon to be non) extant people. May as well follow that logic and decriminalize and protect the right to murder.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

It's still the termination of a human being, that's not what I call elegance for any side. It's more in the line of obfuscation and sloganeering, IMO.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Lenka, those cells are never not human. The ovum is a human cell, the sperm is a human cell, when they meet they create human cells that belong to a unique human being. All the DNA that human being ever needs is there at the moment of conception. There is not a possibility but an absolute certainty, no, put even better, an actuality of humanness of those cells.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Of course not, but there is a significant difference between a natural cause and willful termination, as there is a difference between a 70 year old dying from an aneurysm and being shot dead. We call the former death by natural causes and the latter homicide.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Reality! That once cluster of human cells with a developing nervous system EXISTS and can smile and hug!


And more times than not she will and she won't find any help from those who supported "her right to choose." She will find emotional and psychological help, if she desires, from those who stood in opposition to that "right. "

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Yes it is, but don't fret, they loooove being offended. It's as if they've monopolized the being offended market.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


The nanosecond I finished reading this phrase, my 5 year old came into my office and said "daddy.....". It is inexpressible how nescient and void of wisdom her presence made that phrase.

Oh, and that one time cluster of human cells with a developing nervous system, now gives great hugs and has the sweetest winsome smile known to mankind.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


No, I don't. All I can say is I've spent an aggregate of about three years there over the past 20 years. My wife is Polish and her entire family lives there.


I say this seriously, I greatly appreciate your candidness. Typically pro-abortionists never stop talking in abstract terms. You have enough honesty to admit this us a decision to end a human life-not some claptrap about women's health or whatever bs slogan is dreamed up. The pity is you knowingly advocate the taking of another human life because you deem the will of another greater than the life which is taken.


You got a belly laugh out of me on that one! Not only will I not know, she won't either.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


:). I'm good to go, then. Mrs AntV is like winning the lottery-not that there aren't days...God knows there are days (she is a woman afterall :D )

For me, I'll also have my faith and a sacramental life to keep me company. Plus, my daughters have promised me constant visits with grandchildren. The boy the same, barring he doesn't become a priest.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Theophobe is a real word, it means a fear of religion and/or God or gods.

No, I don't think not wanting to live in a theocracy is a theophobe. It was a direct question, I'm just curious if you're a theophobe.

Poland is hardly a theocracy.

There is no more or less legislative freedom in the West where religious morality informs legislation, than there is in a purely secular one. All legislation is values-based to one degree or another. So, it's matter of what society values or, at least, what legislators value at the time of passage. In the case of abortion it's a matter of the value placed on a developing child in the womb versus the will of others to end that human life.

It's a straightforward value judgment that has specific causes, meaning however that human life was conceived it objectively remains a human life.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


It sure does, and it's metaphysical and instantaneous. As soon as I saw the top of my firstborn's head as she made her way through, everything changed. As Novi said, changed as it should be. It was the same when I got married. It's no longer me, me, me, but them, them, them. And the completely counter-intuitive reality is that change from me to them is accompanied by an unconditional joy-even when they are major pains in the ass.

To me this is really the root of abortion issue: it's the choice of self-giving and radical self-centeredness.


..or inside a pinball machine. :)


I just read this. Are you a theophobe, jon?

Abortion isn't merely a religious issue, it's philosophical and a nature issue. The religious is simply connecting metaphysical to the issue.

We can argue from the anti-abortion/pro-life position without ever bringing theology into it.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


What in the hell does promiscuity in an urban context even mean? Sounds like intellectual pinball.

Anyhow, I take Russianantiputin at her word that she's 16. As the father of a 16 year old girl, I encourage you, russianantiputin, to maintain your sexual purity and pretty much ignore everything jon says on the matter. I'd also encourage you to avoid discussing the topic online all together, it's best to be discussed with your parents and those who know you best and care about your moral development and love you and not risk being influenced by activists. That's my two cents.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


It's not poetry, it's the foundational philosophical principle on which all of our laws are spring. In litigation, it is useful, especially if you're before a judge who adopts an originalist approach to American jurisprudence.


But, it could apply given enough societal pressure to accept it. There's no difference philosophically other than you see the fetus as a child to protect and he doesn't. It's simply opinion and clumsy poetry. :)

Right to privacy is complete and total BS as an American constitutional right, agreed. It simply doesn't exist, except for the opinion of the zeitgeist.

Off-Topic / Random Sports News [894]


Try to catch a live Chicago fire game--great live spectator sport. Better than a live NFL game, IMO.


I worked at a music place back in my wayward youth that had a steady stream of local NFL guys come in. They're underpaid--that size at the speed they play demands heaps of cash to take that risk. I'd rather swim with sharks, at least there's a chance they won't bite, those football dudes are there to attack you.


I've seen a couple. Stupidity that's all--those guys just need a cup of soup and their dads to give them a hug.

Off-Topic / Random Sports News [894]


Yeeaaahhhh, but if you were to play it, you'd wish there was more armor you could wear. I only played up to high school ball, and I wished I could've worn a suit of armor. One of my younger brothers played college ball (bigger, faster guys) and that was brutal-dude couldn't move for a day after a game without his body begging for mercy. I can't imagine what its like at the professional level.

Off-Topic / Random Sports News [894]


I beg to differ. It's a tough manly sport. Not that I ever played, but I've gone to several MLS games in my fair city and it's not wimpy play-not wimpy at all. Not saying it's tough on the level of football where a guy 240 pounds of muscle barrels down on you at 4.5 40 speed with the intention of ensuring the pain you feel is felt in your mother's womb from whence you came, but it's tough nonetheless.


Yeeaaahhhh, but if you were to play it, you'd wish there was more armor you could wear. I only played up to high school ball, and I wished I could've worn a suit of armor. One of my younger brothers played college ball (bigger, faster guys) and that was brutal-dude couldn't move for a day after a game without his body begging for mercy. I can't imagine what its like at the professional level.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

But by your philosophy the right to abortion and privacy are indeed legit rights because they are rights handed down by men, no?

How is your philosophical view any different than jon's?

BTW, speaking from a purely American perspective, your belief that rights are man-made is contrary to the Declaration of Independence. It says rights are inherent to man as part of the laws of nature and nature's God.

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That and we're industrious, gritty, and handsome as hell! :D

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


How doesn't it fit?


Again, you're missing the point: it appears your claim is that the zeitgeist rule what is right and wrong. If that's true, if you were in America a mere 20 years ago, would you have been content with sitting in a jail because you are gay? The zeitgeist rules, yes? Today abortion is illegal and homosexual marriage is legal. Will you accept abortion as right if it's ruled illegal and homosexual marriage illegal tomorrow if a developed country deems it so?

Uh, I meant to say "today abortion is legal...yada yada yada"

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I second and third that advice!

My prayers are with you.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Again, human beings go through stages of development. Regardless of the stage a particular human being is in, does not diminish the fact that he or she is a living human being.


You are either being disingenuous or obtuse. You asked what separates humans from other animals, and I offered examples. You took those examples and transposed them onto a different argument.


It's a decision, but a decision to kill another human being. But, again, I appreciate the honesty of thecrux of the matter--abortiuon is about allowing another to decide to take anothe human beings life--not some happy horseshit about sentienty or viability.

At one time, it was accepted and on the law books to arrest and imprison homosexuals--I suppose you'd be okay sitting in a jail cell because it was accepted and available? Or what about slavery? It was widely accepted and available throughout the world?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

@jon357

We are indeed higher beings-we are not merely instinctual like all animals, we have a free will and rationality. Exponentially greater developed modes of language and socialization than other animals-such greater complexity it's not the same type of thing.

And, no, not all animals are the same. Compare a gnat with dog with a dolphin. The ganglia of a gnat is completely different and lesser developed than the brain of a dog which is less developed than the brain of a dog. Nature has a hierarchy of development.

A fetus is a human being, a human being that has a mother and father, ergo it is a child.


Modern embryology is then extremist. Hence, the immorality of the morning after pill. Just because society accepts something, doesn't make it right, does it?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Well, hell, jon, this could be the crux of the problem, you see humans on an equal plane as dolphins and rats.


I appreciate your honesty. This is the reality of the abortion issue: do we subscribe to will of power, ie the power of a mother over her child to end the child's life, or do we subscribe to protecting life at all its stages. All of these other arguments about sentience, viability, etc are nonsense. It's all about whether a vulnerable human life will be subject to the will of another without impunity.

Off-Topic / Best posters [902]


What? I'm only number 4? Hold it, I get it, Atch and Paulina are rated higher because they're chicks, right? :D :D :D

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


You may not think so, but embryology begs to differ. The fetus is a distinct being separate from his or her mother. The fetus is dependent on his or her for survival. Just as the 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year ild is dependent on another human for his or her survival.

Does the father have a say? If not, why should fathers then be on the line financially for their children when a part from the mother (regardless of who left whom-it's all about free decisions afterall)?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I'll have to look this guy up and his pre-persons idea!

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

@jon357

At 24-28 weeks a fetus has the hardware to experience consciousness. So, possibly.

There are theories that state full self-consciousness is developed at 6-7 years old. In other words, self-consciousness is about development. So, again, you are arguing about the stage of permissibility to kill a human being.

We are all a mass of cells, jon. That argument is intellectually silly. The "it's a part of a woman's body" argument, though is sad as hell. It is not only a minimizing of the biological reality that the fetus is a unique living human, but it has also diminishes the uniqueness of women. The ability to bring forth new human life is an utterly mind-blowingly beautiful uniqueness of womanhood. The "it's a part of a woman's body" argument degrades that uniqueness to a type of chattel ownership that rejects and destroys the chattel. It's a sign of the ugliness and disorder of our times.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

@jon357

In the specific of what we are talking about, a human fetus in his or her mother's womb, sentience would be about sensory perception. Whether a fetus knows of his or her existence while in the womb has absolutely no objective effect on the reality of his or her existence. There is absolutely no denying the fetus exists and is human, because if it didn't exist the decision of aborting it would be moot because there would be nothing to abort.

Viability, sentience, heart beats and on and on are not about the fundamental reality of a human being existing in the womb of his or her mother. Those things are about developmental stages and conditional quality of a human. So, the question you are really posing is at what stage of development or condition of life is it permissible to end a human being's life.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

@jon357

It's about the capacity to perceive or experience feeling. In this case, what perception or feeling other than pain would we be talking about?

Why is sentience germane to aborting a human life in the womb?