History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [515]

Radosław Sikorski apparently tweeted that Poland screwed up but he really can't feel how people must have felt in those times. You have to put up a fight against a war machine that is hellbent on your destruction. Sometimes there is no other way. It's kill or be killed!

Life / 3 reasons why you hate Poland. [1049]

Geez, this thread is still on the go? I have an affinity for quite a few here and I love my Polish family to bits. They are wonderful folks and I'd go out of my way for them. 3 reasons? (to dislike, not hate) Hmm

1) Door slamming - this is simply rude. I know that not everyone does it but I hear it a lot here. I've had to put up signs to alert people to what they are doing. There is simply no need for it!!

2) A tendency towards the negative - this makes me love positive Poles all the more. Those that gripe and groan too much are not the kind I like to be around. There's no need for it, you are NOT kings and queens, as much as you might like to think you are in your deluded minds. Be fair to others, respect their space and try and be positive if you can (though it's your country, your prerogative).

3) Screeching your brakes - I live near a crossing and I hear it many many times on a daily basis. Come on, pull up gradually and stop being so irritated and in such a hurry. You only wear out your own tyres/tires in so doing.

These are 3 dislikes but I'm in a 'like Poland' mindset at the moment, largely due to the sun and laid back nature of many around.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

You know what happened to Icarus, I-S ;) ;)

I see that Lewitin (Russian) responded to Jerzy Miller, sore affronted that the report could have implicated Russia in any wrongdoing. The airport's condition was haphazard at best. As a result, maximum care must be taken, esp given the magnitude of the situation. A delegation with 96 officials should be extended the maximum courtesy and not be the victims of slippages and slack monitoring.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

I'm beginning to believe the same, I-S. We can't trust these idiots who conduct the investigations and they simply CANNOT reach such different conclusions from the black box recordings.

As I said, a man who sees and who has the required talent can land. Take that away and he becomes blind. Does he need a lot of help? Of course he does. He needs the aviation equivalent of a guide dog and the Russian ATC failed to be that. Delph, for the last time, they went under 100m as they had distorted readings and the Russian ATC really HAD TO see they were dipping too fast.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

It is more the Russian side in this case, yes. They should be ashamed of themselves with such a shabby airport. Soldiers on the runway at the time of approach. What's that all about? Fiddling with the bulbs. What a bunch of sneaky sods. How are the blind led? By themselves or by a guide dog? I don't get delph's analogy with the car and the passenger. It's not as relevant as the blind dog analogy. They had a duty of care to guide them in better, esp in light of the conditions.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

I hate to say it but denial seems to be a prevalent trait amongst quite a few Slavs. I can't really trust either side to conduct a fair investigation in the light of that. Mud slinging is too visible and not accepting blame appears to be common to both sides.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

The Russian side omitted key parts of the transcripts according to reports. The government there really functions as a self-interested unit as opposed to the people who are capable of looking outwards.

As for 'that' video posted, shots can be heard. There was also a video where the witness came forward and his interview was translated. He saw men in the forest and heard the shots, hence the words 'nie ch*j ja sybie' (Polish phonetics). I think it is one of those red herrings that spring up.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Russia still broke the rules by going outwith the permissible deviation parameters, delph. That's just a fact!

ndb2010.salon24.pl/286036,artykuly-o-smolensku-w-jezyku-angielskim
it's so hard to know what to believe. I really believe that standdowns were issued and more than one Polish official has claimed that the official transcripts have been fiddled with.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

They didn't factor in the inertia aspect of it either. In a panic-stricken maneuver, they increased the thrusters so as to normalise the glidepath. This was after the pressure had been standardised. When you throw in the delayed response of ATC, you have only one result without divine intervention.

The crux of the matter is the working of the relevant radars. If they were fully functional then they had to see the plane's trajectory as being off-course. Delph, you always talk of the 100m thing but they really didn't know. The distortion effect was there and there was a 168m differential. The pilot was not suicidal and would not have gone way way down as he ended up doing. Below the 100m mark, maybe, but look where they ended up and how off to the left they were. Not feasible without distortion, sorry.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

It's nonsense like that that encourages those with alternative theories to come out. Also, they misreported the time on the day of the accident. There was a lot of fiddling with the apparatus too. The sneakiness of the Russian authorities and downright incompetence hardly allayed any fears.

Sticking with known data, we can draw clear conclusions but people are throwing other red herrings around which sow the seeds of doubt.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Yeah, there isn't much conspiracy here as the black boxes were checked by both sides. I heard a theory about created fog but that's quite laughable given what the forecasts said. The problem was that the updated forecasts weren't given out on time. The communication between the Yak crew and the Tupolev one was garbled. Yes, the 200m visibility part was clear but check the transcripts, there was another bit of confusion.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

warsawvoice.pl/WVpage/pages/article.php/17500/news, you simply can't trust politicians or those under them. An international team of experts needs to be assembled. It's as simple as that. Then neither MAK or the Polish side will be able to turn this into a circus.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

It has become overly politicised so we are doing a good thing by discussing the details here. The truth matters!

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Monia, there is clearly a mixed opinion of him but he hadn't piloted a Tupolev flight in either 2008 or 2009 according to the report. Sometimes it can be like a bike or a car but conditions complicate the matter and he was rusty. You can't make such a basic error if so experienced. Reading the wrong meters is very amateurish indeed.

The Russian ATC simply had to alert them given the discrepancy in the readings. 168m is a large drop. Protasiuk claimed to know about the ravine but somehow the Russian ATC didn't correct their position for them. They should have asked them why they were off course and they didn't.

mobile.thestar.com/mobile/world/article/1032149
insufficient experience cited as a reason here. It does strike me as odd as he was generally experienced. It makes you wonder who is lying here in the political set-up as they simply both can't be correct.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

They certainly didn't but he started to accelerate to catch up on the glidescope but starting veering off course. The negligence on the Russian side was palpable too. The simple reality is the distortion caused by normalising the pressure and paying attention to the wrong meters. The Russian radars should have read their course but they seem to have panicked too.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Delph, read what f stop wrote in post 142. You clearly haven't read his real flying experience or have taken the info from another source. He had no business in that plane and his training was not conducted properly and filled with holes. There is A LOT of criticism of his competence in the report I posted.

There were huge mistakes on both sides but we see the Polish and Russian psyche in some to say it was completely the other side's fault. That was why an international investigation was called for.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Nomad, the report is far more credible than Anodina's one through MAK, that's for sure.

There needs to be a clear-up debate on the issue by sticking to known facts and best-fit scenarios thereafter based on the views of experts. Until then, it's word against word.

Anyway, tbc :)

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

No, he wasn't inexperienced overall but with Tupolevs, yes. Read the bold on page 112 and just after. Very relevant!

They should have closed the airport in accordance with FAP PP regulations.

The LZC should have told them to make a decision sooner, see p262.

P263 shows that they continued to misguide them very late into proceedings.

P267 proves you wrong. They should have informed the crew about 5 secs after seeing them go down below the glidepath.

He told them they were on path and that was illegal, esp given that they were wrong.

The radars should have been tested for malfunctioning but the Russians had already tampered with them by then.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Delph, the report tells you why he gave it all he had. He wanted to maintain the glidepath that he told was good. Check it out, p227

Page 226 with footnote 128 tells you what you need to know.

Page 227 covers TAWS and answers your question.

Nomad, they were delph's words, not mine. Please read above. Maybe Monia said it too. I've kept such statements off of this thread, sticking to the data in the report.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Delph, you have your answer in the report. He was an inexperienced Tupolev pilot with incomplete training records. It's all there. He was unfamiliar with TAWS and how it operated in that region. He was under stress and wanted to buy thinking time so he made an instinctive though irrational decision. Look at page 215 of the report and the accompanying footnote.

Yes, they were cleared to 100m as the transcripts show. However, read on as it's the fullest version above. They continue on and were actually told that they were still on the correct glidepath and of sufficient height. They were initially too high but then dipped down very quickly, another ill-advised manuever due to the inability to quickly pull up, sth which should have been foremost on their minds. After standardising the pressure, they were 168m off and the ATC breached protocol in not informing them of the deviation level. If you read the report systematically, you will see clearly how they were negligent. These are experts, delph. The report is the culmination of extensive work, quoting relevant regulations all the time to back up their statements.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

The lack of decision making was highly incompetent here, delph. Read the transcripts from the report I posted above.

Yes but you haven't commented on the switching of the VBS-SVS altimeter being switched to standard pressure, delph. This led to a 168m distortion in thought position Vs actual position and TAWS was not activated as a result, not til later. This is the crux of the matter, not what Blasik thought.

Delph, read the report. Forecasts are very important and that will be clear. The no conditions for landing was abandoned as they continued to claim they were on the right glide path. They were outside of acceptable parameters and the ATC had to know this. The crew were under the mistaken belief that they were higher due to the change to standard pressure.

Sky, the problem is in the report and the one I've mentioned above.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Try the conclusions from page 300, Monia. This effectively summarises it without you really missing any key details.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

It's best to avoid reading too much into it and go with the 328-page report in post 144 above. It shows that the Polish side made the bigger blunders BUT the Russian side also committed a catalogue of errors and did things they weren't allowed to do. They should have been more vigilant when the plane deviated outwith prescribed limits. It's a long read but you can cut through some parts. Try pp250-265. I can point you out to the main parts which make the position pretty clear.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

dziennikwschodni.pl/assets/pdf/DW44922729.PDF
a vital read. The Russians clearly knew, through correspondence, who the pilot would be and had their ready-made pretext. Delph, I encourage you to read pp190-200 regarding meteorological conditions. The sheer incompetence on the Russian side was incredible! Now, the golden question is whether or not this had a material impact on the ultimate outcome, esp if you combine it with the lack of updates on them being off the right glidepath.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Did you watch the video, Monia? It might help your case. It's in Polish but with English subtitles.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

... this might be worth watching. I'll watch it and let others know the content of it. It sets out to ask a few hard questions so it should be revealing. It's about the Smoleńsk crash first and foremost.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Maybe they felt he was ignoring their warnings due to a lack of understanding.

He was due to retire and was likely pushed out by senior Russian officials so as to vacate the spotlight.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Another mad ex-CIA official trying to pit Poland against Russia. Sorry, Monia, but you need to stick with the facts and not those with political agendas.

News / Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash [859]

Yes but he is merely stirring things up and not talking about the technical flight path or any significant details.

UK, Ireland / Why Poles will never belong in England [283]

To the OP: England is not a multi-cultural country?