Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


But this disconnect isn't actually seen in Poland. Right now, there are flats on offer in Poznan for 4,500zl/square metre next to tram lines - and the average wage is certainly around that level.


That sounds like a dodgy sale to raise hard currency - but it's not what I was talking about. Many of the cooperative-built flats were sold at the time of construction - in zloty. Muncipal housing (not the same thing) should never have been sold - and if she bought a flat in US Dollars, it was certainly some sort of quasi-legal operation and not "normal".

I don't doubt your story - in fact, it's very interesting - it would be curious to know who she bought the flat from.


Most actually could - there was a lot of surplus money in the system, caused by workers going insane every time price rises were announced. I don't remember the exact details to hand, but one huge problem that they had in 1980-1 was that the workers had a lot of cash, but nothing to spend it on. Sure, the Zloty was worthless outside of Poland - but inside Poland, it still had value. And the "cooperative" flats were sold in Zloty, not hard currency.


And yet they're worth a lot of money if they're in a good location.

It's the reason why they're holding their value while new blocks are falling in value - new blocks tend to be poorly located.

News / Some say modern Poland is split into A and B; The "Old", and the "New". [14]


You only value them because you're not subsidising them. If you actually paid taxes in Poland, you'd soon change your mind about them.


You can't stand them? They're the ones subsidising your peasant relatives. Perhaps we should cut off the money, like many in Wielkopolska advocate? It's certainly a good idea - if they want to keep their ways so much, let them pay for it themselves.


It doesn't? Could it be that you don't *want* it to work? As they say - you can take the man out of the village, but you can't take the village out of the man.


Ah, that old complex. "We know what's best for you. And you wonder why you get ridiculed by people here?


You won't do a damn thing about it though, will you? I mean, you don't even live here!


Of course we feel superior - when you look at how wealthy Wielkopolska/Dolnoslaskie are, then when you look at how poor Podlasie/Lubelskie are, it's not hard to see where it comes from. But I suggest that it's nothing to do with money and everything to do with attitude.


So your mother actually abandoned Poland when the country was desperately in need of young workers? And you have the cheek to talk about "defending" Poland?

Incidentally, that makes you what, 25-26? That means that there's absolutely no excuse for you not to return - except, you know...easier in Canada, isn't it?


Really?

Me and several others have a standing offer to US/Canadian Polonia - if you care so much, we can arrange for you to come and work in a desperately poor "Polska B" village school. The kind of school where a native (or near native) speaker would make a massive difference to their lives - and because you care so much about Poland, you'll come straight away, won't you? We'll even pay for your flight tickets, as we're so generous. All you've got to do is commit to a year.

Or is it that you care about Poland when on the internet, but really - you couldn't care less about the place?

News / Is there anything Poland won't do for money? "Wolf's Lair" - up for rent" [59]


For someone who is as passionate about Polish history as Harry is, it's easy to see why he made the comparison.

Perhaps reading his post properly would help?

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]

The problem is not the price and availability, it's expectations. People want lovely modern apartments with fantastic tram connections - but they want it now.

What "wielki pan" says about buying small and upgrading just doesn't seem to be widely practised here.

UK, Ireland / Why are Polish people, especially women, so disrespectful toward the English? [442]


Well yes, the Poles haven't learnt the art of sitting at home whining on the internet while still getting loads of cash for it.

Got a job yet, by the way?

News / Is there anything Poland won't do for money? "Wolf's Lair" - up for rent" [59]


Oh yes, the famous car park for the 1985-era East German flats. A tourist attraction, yes - so much that every time I've taken someone there, no-one else is around. There's a simple information board, and absolutely nothing on the ground to show that there are still the remains of the bunker underneath.

Or are you talking about the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which is nearby, but not on the site?

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


Honestly, I don't think the Polish government should do a thing, except sorting out the mess that is municipal and social housing. It's started to happen in Poznan (drunks who aren't paying the rent are going to some awful prefab accommodation, as they should be) - but it needs to be nationwide.


Cheaper loans? There's already Rodzina na Swoim - how much cheaper do you want? Tax breaks for construction - why? There's plenty of new stuff being built without the need for tax breaks. As for establishing/running a business - it's really not that complicated for most businesses.


Rome wasn't built in a day. People seem to forget that Poland has came a hell of a long way since 1989 - heck, really, you could say since 1995 as the country was actually worse off during the early 90's than the late 80's.

Roads are fine. As long as everything that gets built by 2020 gets built, I have no issues. So far, so good. As for schools - just, leave them alone for now. Reform after reform changes nothing.


You honestly think developers are the kind of people who would operate a cartel? I know a couple, and they don't think far into the future - they think about buying the land, getting the permissions, building the properties and collecting their profit. Sitting on land is losing money.


I really am starting to think you're in love with me. 24 posts, and most of them replies to little me. How cute - and a certain sign that you're just another poster who's too cowardly to post under his own name. Surprise, surprise.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


What's wrong with it?

I can take the train to work, or I can drive. I take the train mostly - because it's 35 minutes of relaxing, stress free travel - as opposed to 45 minutes of Polish drivers.


I've already given you examples where the train service is frequent and reliable here.


That's a massive social transfer in anyone's book.

And a kick in the face to those who bought flats under Communism too. I doubt Babcia remembers this when voting for PiS, though.

Genealogy / Are all Poles blue eyed and blonde? [450]


We're sick to death of it. At least now - we can get back to the normal left vs right wing arguments that used to prevail on here.


Certainly - thank you for acting - it's appreciated :)


Could be - I've noticed that people often write something completely weird on their dowód. My own wife has "grey" eyes - yet they're clearly blue. Never heard a good explanation from her yet as to why ;)

Genealogy / Are all Poles blue eyed and blonde? [450]


Nice one, mods. :)

That map posted was surreal - there's no way that 50-79% of Scots have blonde hair. Could it be the product of some very dubious research?

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


State control of municipal housing, allocated according to merit and need as opposed to being in the right place at the right time - what's wrong with that?


Babcia certainly didn't pay market value - like the UK's 'right to buy' - the flats were sold for peanuts, even by Polish standards. Or worse still, Babcia didn't buy at all - and she's still living in her huge muncipally owned flat.

Renting is much cheaper than buying right now in Poland - but really, people from the West hardly bought much compared to what the Poles bought. It might be more accurate to say that Poles were the ones inflating their own market, especially in border towns where they could work illegally in Germany. I know one guy who bought himself a nice flat in the early 90's by doing exactly that.


Actually - they weren't. There were plenty of flats that were privately owned during Communism - many of the "Spoldzenia MIeszkanowa" type flats were bought upon construction. The real problem is - as I said - the younger generation is priced out of the market by a squeeze of those with foreign income and older people who are inheriting flats.


Funny you mention this - one big problem that Poland has is that people tend to buy a property 'for life'. They were the ones who took on huge mortgages - and when the CHF strengthened, they were the ones in trouble. I don't understand it - as you say - sensible is to buy small and then work your way up.

But really - people from the West are a minor influence on the Polish market, especially because most of them buy new flats anyway.


You can have a car, but give up the driving to work. Saves a lot of cash.

There's really not that much difference between supermarkets when it comes to food - all it means is less variety. As for cheapest furniture - van hire isn't expensive in Poland. And people seem to manage just fine in the UK with living outside cities - why is Poland so important?


There's plenty going on culturally in these places, but nothing "sexy". Perhaps that's the problem - image before substance.

(I'm in the middle of organising a cultural project in one of these towns as we speak - and the support has been far higher than in Poznan)


It's too late now to solve things - the only thing that can be done is to put a stop to any sales of muncipal flats, and to make sure that there is no "inheritance".

The state could easily have charged a market rate. Would've made sense, what with the general use of shock therapy.

As for how they would finance it - they wouldn't. Babcia could continue to rent from the State, and if she can't afford 2000zl payments, then she can downsize. As I said - no room for sentimentality.

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]

What's truly frightening to me is the way that the RM listeners and the hooligans have formed some sort of partnership - I know a lot of liberal Catholics are *very* upset with this, as it gives even more power to Ruch Palikota.

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]

Would there be a protest if America was the land of free speech?

Honestly, some people.

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]

Haven't you actually read what the two proposed bills actually say?

And - as I said - the Patriot Act is a great example too.

Not to mention the massive self-censorship in America.

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]


The fact that your country even considered such a draconian bill kinda says it all. Oh, and we mustn't forget the Patriot Act while we're at it.


At least you're listening ;)

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]

Hardly the land of "free speech", is it? Don't throw stones when in a glass house, and all that.

I mean, we all know how you couldn't hack it in Europe, but you really don't have to pretend that America is somehow superior.

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]


Remind us - what country is the focus of a massive online protest today?

(hint : not Poland, the UK or any European country.)

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]


Would it honestly be legal to dip the Star of David in a jar of **** in the USA?


Remind us why Wikipedia is shutting down for 24 hours again?

You're in dreamland if you think the US has freedom of speech.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]

No - I want muncipal housing to be allocated on the basis of need (and merit) rather than on the basis of "first come, first served" - especially because the municipal housing was often fraudulently allocated in the first place.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]

Houses are a different story though - we're only talking about the situation where someone has purchased a flat for peanuts, built after 1945 with public money and bought after 1989.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


But it is where the property is/was purchased - that's more or less a direct transfer.

(don't get me started on the insanity of someone with a zameldowanie there claiming rights to the property)


There's sentimentality in that it was a very popular move to allow people to buy their flats for peanuts - not least because many of the flats were occupied by ex-Party (or ex-Party institution workers). A fair system would have redistributed the flats before allowing people to buy them.


The fair price would have been the market value at the time of purchase - be it 2011 or 1991.

As for the Government taking stuff - well, there are processes to deal with that. It's a separate issue, as I'm mainly talking about new builds (post 1945).


Social housing should be for those in need (and who are deserving, no drunks/wasters) - if someone needs a municipal flat, then they should live in a flat suitable for their needs. Don't you see the insanity of poor families living in tiny flats while Babcia lives alone in a huge flat? Both are owned by the State - and they should switch. Again - you can't allow sentimentality to override logic.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


Sentimentality shouldn't apply to economics and social welfare - it's usually what causes much of the mess to begin with.

If they want to pass it to their children, then they should pay the fair market price for it. It's built with public money - why should the public transfer money to a private pocket?

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


It wouldn't have done if it was done properly from the beginning - the flats in question were owned by the municipality, and could easily have had conditions attached to the occupancy of the property.

Now of course, it's a different story - but there should be no "inheritance" of socially owned flats and they certainly shouldn't be bought these days.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


Indeed. I have numerous friends living in rented accommodation - all of which is let with a wink and a nod and no money being declared to the taxman at all. All the flats were inherited and then rented out - and many of them are in very good locations. The current owners have done absolutely nothing - and these flats were never built as part of a "społdzielna" (spelling?), but rather plain old council housing.


The problem is that Babcia often didn't work for it all her life - she often got it through being in the right place/right time and often retired early from some quasi-military non-job. It's especially true when it comes to flats built in the 50's/60's - many of them in very good locations were given to loyal Party members.


Exactly. As it stands - the nephew can give Babcia a small amount of cash, she can buy the flat - and the nephew can sell it for a handsome profit once Babcia dies. An utter joke in every sense of the word - especially with young people struggling to buy accommodation.

I have no issue with Babcia staying there, but when she goes, the flat should return to the State - and - crucially - be awarded not only on the basis of need, but also the basis of deserving.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


It's not only the massive social transfers in the early 90's which the youth paid for then, but also the current day social transfers. No-one seriously believes that ZUS is using yesterday's money to pay for today's pensions, right?


Honestly, the solution to the problem would have been grant the "main" occupiers (no children, no nephews, no-one else) living rights to the flat. Babcia wouldn't be able to pass the place on - and you wouldn't have the issue where people in their 50's are now standing to inherit some very good flats that no-one has really worked for. But the problem also existed under Communism - many new flats were sold for what was really nothing compared to the actual value of the materials/labour used to construct them.

The whole situation is a diabolical mess - while eviction wasn't a good idea, these flats should have stayed in State hands unless the purchaser was willing to pay market value for them.

Have a look at this - the UK has exactly the same problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_buy_scheme

The same situation also caused a shocking housing shortage - if they were State owned, Babcia could be relocated into more suitable accomodation for her needs (ie, no big 4 room flats in city centre locations) while young families who need the room could get it.

It's somewhat socialist, but at the same time - if the State is paying, then it should be according to need, not according to luck or connections.

(and I think the lack of social housing in Poland while Babcia sits in a massive flat is also an utter disgrace)

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]

Or in this case, "all power to those who were in a comfortable situation post-1989".

Which also includes many of those PiS loving Babcia's sitting in massive flats in city centre locations, paid for by the efforts of today's youth.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


A joined-up housing policy would have started with prohibiting the purchase of state-owned flats for anything less than the market value.

The 'right-to-buy' has caused chaos in the UK, and the same thing is seen here. Basic economics - transferring huge social subsidies is always going to cause pain somewhere down the road.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


If it wasn't for the massive social transfers, prices would undoubtably be lower. That much is obvious.


The problem is that the current situation isn't the result of the capitalist system. It's the direct result of state interference - the State sold much of the housing stock at heavily subsidised prices, and now, we see the effects - those who were subsidised can outbid those who weren't.


Looks like you're the one who hasn't learnt basic history.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


300,000 buys you a decent house in much of Poland, really. A first time buyer would be looking at a 2/3 room flat (one interesting question - why the hell were so many 2 room flats built in the 50sqm range when 3 smaller rooms would make far more sense for the first time buyer?) - and in a small town, you're looking at around 150k these days maximum, and that's with a kitchen/bathroom fitted.


Poland has unfortunately followed the British model - and I think it's hurting them.

It's probably a lot to do with the way that many properties were sold for peanuts in the early 90's - everyone became a homeowner, and this generation wants the same. Of course, there aren't the huge social transfers to pay for it - so you're in the ridiculous situation where people in their 50's had very cheap property, while people in their mid 20's are now paying much more than they need to, simply because the older generation have priced them out of the market.


It is harsh, but true - look at all these morons graduating and demanding jobs with high salaries to begin with. Many of them simply don't want to work hard for the big rewards - I've lost count of the amount of people I've interviewed, who have then backed off when I've mentioned "of course, some weekend work will be part of the job". I remember one girl in particular who refused to work weekends under any circumstance - all because she had a boyfriend in another city.

Unsurprisingly, she (and the rest) didn't get the job.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


What are you talking about now?

The laws in Poland are fine when it comes to a landlord/tenant relationship. We could do with the introduction of a deposit protection service, but that's about it.


Well yes, I sensibly live very close to good public transport connections. Still have a car, but for ordinary day to day stuff, public transport is just as good.


Poland is worse than others. You should know something about it, having a kid without actually working.