Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


I don't like that organisation anyway. It stigmatizes and cries wolf while exhaggerating things.

Indeed, 70 per cent of the Dutch population is historically pro-Israël, but has a resentment towards Israeli politics.

Well, let's just skip Sokidoki's failed attempt to criminalize the Dutch as an anti semitic bunch laughingly aside.

Jews helped NL for a great deal in making it one of the richest countries of Europe and it's due to NL's tolerance that we have always been. If you want to be successful, there simply is no place for intolerance, luckily, the Dutch have always understood that very well.


This is not typical Dutch, this happened everywhere in occupied Europe.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


I've read that link too. But you seem to "forget" that the current anti semitism is not from native Dutch ppl, but from a Moroccan minority as it states in this link. It's actually one of the first hits you get when you type in "antisemitism in the Netherlands". Gee, what deep research you have done to find this source, Einstein. Read Presser and then come back again with more profounded evidence, not one based on assumptions or on a way of putting other countries down to make your own country look better.


You haven't proven anything. Where is the list of Dutch ghetto's for example? There is none, as you were talking out of your *ss again. Your only aim is to glorify Poland and if this has to be done by putting other countries down, so be it. This quote proves that thoroughly. And the basis of all is that deep, unfounded inferiority complex that seems to hinder many Poles, including you.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]

Aphro, you know that Jews were running rampant in the streets of communist Poland, carrying machetes to cut off arms and heads of ppl that looked Polish, everybody knows that.

:)


My mom's family lived in a big villa a little outside of Rotterdam. There was no ghetto in Rotterdam. Also other Jewish families lived scattered over the entire country. Jacques Presser, a Jewish professor, also lived in the Southern part of Amsterdam, far away from the Jodenbuurt.

>^..^<

M-G (grin)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


Do I? Because they don't fit in your pretty tight worldview?


Ok, give examples of rampant anti semitism in the Netherlands before WW2. I wanna hear from you facts about mass killings of Jewish ppl in NL based on the fact that they were Jewish.


Like I said, prove that there was rampant anti semitism.


I am waiting for your excruciating long list of instances of anti semitism in the Netherlands. And while you're at it, do that for Belgium too. But before you start, just for your information: in Belgium, the Jews who survived the Holocaust were welcomed back as were most of the Dutch Jews. In some other countries they were again killed. Wonder what country that was...

>^..^<

M-G (waiting for Sokidoki's list)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]

Yes - I would like to know that too as I am curious what new, unknown facts will surface.

:)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


I lived there myself when I studied History in Amsterdam. And it has never been a ghetto as you had in Poland. Jewish ppl were free to live where they wanted and they did and before WW2 many non-Jews lived in the Jodenbuurt as well. In fact you just have to go throught the archives to know that. Ghetto? Heck no.


A Pole who wants to educate a Dutch historian in Dutch history? Well, that'll be the day.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


In the 17th century, Jews were not proscecuted and killed based on being a Jew in NL, au contraire, they were respected parts of society and helped NL become the strongest state in the world at that time. At the same time, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth sought somebody to blame for the many devastating wars it had encountered. While ignoring the fact that 100's of thousands of Jews died during those wars either as a soldier or as innocent civilian, Jews were found as scapegoat and should be punished. Bohdan Khmelnytsky's Cossacks made sure 10's of thousand Jews died during his uprising of 1648-1657.


Ever heard of the Beilis trial in Russia, early 20th century? Was quite a big example of an anti semitic flavoured trial.


They didn't. They were living among the other Dutch everywhere in every pssbl part of the cities and villages and they were generally respected members of the community. Only after the Nazi occupation they did, just like everywhere else in Europe.


You really don't have a clue, do you? If you don't know anything about it, that's ok, but don't pretend you do as in your case it's only to "prove" how glorious Poland was. Which is of course nonsense. No country was glorious in WW2 or any other periods in time. All countries have their dark sides, even Poland, although you will never admit that. Why is that? Because you're not mentally well.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


Anti semitism has never been as severe in Western Europe, including France and the Low Countries as it was in Russia or in Poland. I am aware of the proceedings of NL during the war-years, but this was only in a very tiny number of examples due to extreme anti semitism, as it was more inspired by greed and cowardness. And indeed, neighbours, jealous of them rich Jews living next door, saw their chances when the Nazis came. But again, it wasn't inspired by an ideological or deep rooted anti semitism, more by materialism.

Jews in Western Europe and especially in the Netherlands and Belgium were extremely assimilated. In fact they were Dutch among the Dutch. So when the authorities (in NL) introduced a new system of registering the population which included registration of religion, Dutch Jews, unlike their counterparts in many other countries, went to the offices and had themselves registered and in the column where it asked for religion, they filled in a "J" for "Jood". These systems remained in tact, so when the Nazis came, only thing they had to do was go to those archives, read them and pick out the Jews, who were there registered. After that they only had to visit the address as this was registered as well. NL is a country that likes to register stuff and in the case of WW2, this habit worked against them.

For the rest of Dutch collaboration or any other Dutch anti semitism facts and matters, I would suggest you'd read Jacques Pressers' masterpiece "Ashes in the Wind - the destruction of Dutch Jewry". It has been translated from Dutch into English and the title I've given is the official English title.

nlpvf.nl/book/book2.php?Book=11


On one side one had the government, conservative parties, the church and the army and on the other side the progressive forces led by Emile Zola and Jean Jaurès. The schisma went through all layers of society, with the anti-Dreyfus group on one hand and the Dreyfusians on the other. There is no way to tell exactly how big the proportions were, but it's a safe to state that the majority found itself in favour of Dreyfus. Because the majority did have an idea that what was going on wasn't fair at all and was based on no clear grounds. Also the fact that an open letter by Zola was enough to break open the case and end the affair might illustrate that a majority was pro-Dreyfus.

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


A bit of a long story: a Jewish officer from the Alsache got accused of spying for the Germans based of falsified evidence, was sentenced and even when the true perpetrator was found, a Hungarian officer named Esterhazy, the judges didn't want to re-open the case, but Dreyfuss was acquitted. The fact that Dreyfuss was Jewish and from the Alsache mattered much in this. Emile Zola wrote his famous letter in L'Aurore, "J'accuse" because of the affair. Esterhazy, the real spy was never tried. Read about it here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfuss_Affair

It was a pretty nasty affair that sickened French society for a long time in the decades before WW1. Today we can still see the consequences of it: the Tour De France was actually a direct consequence of the affair.

>^..^<

M-G (cannot sleep, but giving it a new try; good night)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


I was talking about all Europe, not only Poland.


Ok, what reasons would the Poles have to be prejudiced against the Jews in, say, 1920? Communism was still a Russian thing and as I recall there were no Jewish issues in Piłsudki's war against the Ukraine/Sovjet Union.

True that the Eastern European Jews were Askenazi and generally not really liked, also in the West as they were poor. But most of the Western European Jews were Portugese Sefardic, rich and darn good merchants and very welcome. There was basically one big issue in Western Europe concerning the Jews or anti-semitism and that was the Dreyfuss affair in the decades before WW1.

Ok, in the Netherlands Jews were for a very big part responsible for the success of the first corporation in the world, the Dutch East Indies Company (V.O.C.). Following this success, Jews got filthy rich and they weren't so really nice towards the not-so-rich. How come that those Jews weren't generally hated, met with prejudice or discriminated upon otherwise in NL? There was some, yes, but the vast majority did not hate the Jews. We may not have as many as in PL, but still we had substantial numbers of Jews, considering a small country like NL.

>^..^<

M-G (heard that they're gonna close the airports again due to the angry volcano)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


It could also be that they were not given a chance. If you've read my small overview of the history and causes of anti-semitism, you could see that Jews before the 20th Century were effectively blocked from major parts of public life and confined - due to religious reasons - to only a handful of segments. Finance being one of them. And what made them infamous, well, there for sure will be some bankers which practices are not very koosjer (I hate banks in general), but before the 20th Century hatred of Jewish financial institutions was generally only present when it was time to pay back the loans the non-Jewish population had with them.

History / Happy Constitution day! 3 May 1791 (Poland Constitution) [18]

I knew that the Polish constitution of 1791 was the first modern in Europe. Never denied that - was more intended at TS's mixup of facts.


You just take every opportunity to have a drink, don't ya?

:))

>^..^<

M-G (cheers anyway)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


Not quite true. Have a look at following list, I would say they were pretty prominent.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_Jews

I know it's Wiki, but can't hardly fcuk up with lists like this.

Jews fought in the Polish army, and were integrated in quite some segments of Polish every day, cultural and political life.

>^..^<

M-G (Jews have contributed in every country they live(d) in)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]

Complete and utter BS. But that's just what is to be expected from you.

Miguel, pls refer to other sources than Sokidoki if you want an unbiased and racist-free explanation of the relationship between Poles and Jews. Read for example, articles on the Kielce incident, where you can see how the Poles were "neither the initiators or the active side". And there are more examples.

History / Happy Constitution day! 3 May 1791 (Poland Constitution) [18]


Half Jewish, eh? :) Well, I did pay attention during the lectures on Eastern European history between 1500 and 1900. But besides all that - TS's claim that this would be the first Democratic leap forward makes it impssbl that it could've taken place in 1791; at that point in time there had been already three major democratic leaps: The US constitution of 1776, the Dutch Palace Revolution of 1787 and it's copy, the French Revolutionairy act of 1789.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


So you and your friend use this conveniently to spout your anti-semitic vile on this forum once more?


Miguel, you musn't forget that Sokidoki and his little helper don't like Jews to the point where they have become racist. To them all good flows from the Poles themselves and all bad flows from the others, notably the Jews. It simply doesn't fit in their little world that Poles can do bad things too. In fact, to them Poles are so glorious and good ppl, they don't even need jails in Poland and no Pole could do sth criminal :) Well, there is one jail, for the foreigners, because they are the only ones that do criminal things over there.

>^..^<

M-G (gee, wonder where that Polish gang that confessed to at least 30 burglaries in Southern NL came from - surely they only were called Polish as no Pole would ever do that)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]

This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread that deals with Jewish roots of PL and not with communist Poland or would you say that PL was already communist in the 14th century?

Speaking of insulting other posters, I learned from the best, you miserable dwarf. It's not my fault you don't have a life and that history of PL doesn't exist if it's not glorious and an example for the whole world. Well, contrary to what you may belief, PL is not that important. And besides, I only fight bullcrap from you and Jola and some others. Intolerant bastards like you who tend to overglorify the history of a marginal country.

Wasn't it a dwarf like you that called some of the best Polish historians liars just because they came with facts that you didn't like? Hm. Remarkably how you call everybody a liar who presents a truth you don't like. Get a new act.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Happy Constitution day! 3 May 1791 (Poland Constitution) [18]

Oh.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Confederation

>^..^<

M-G (to the how manieth partition did this lead?)

History / Happy Constitution day! 3 May 1791 (Poland Constitution) [18]

I thought it was 1768?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


Thank God this is coming from you and not from a sane person. Like I said some time earlier, I have stopped taking you seriously a long time ago. And besides, nobody gives a shyte about your opinion, little man.


Names, pls.


Sure Jola, sure...You just so happened to find that nearly all bad things in PL happened because of the Jews. You are so predictable, it's nearly pathetic.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


It's the same as that "good old" Soviet propaganda, eh?

>^..^<

M-G (yeah, they are good at hiding the dark spots while making believe that PL is the example par excellence of goodness and never did anything wrong)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


Only if you stop defending everything the Poles do, even when it's bad. Remember when you still had the image of being objective? You lost that veil quite some time ago. And as long as you're absolutely not being objective, I will do this. Until you learn how to be objective again and learn to admit that even the Poles can make mistakes.

>^..^<

M-G (sometimes I wonder if you yourself know Polish history when it comes to dark sides)

News / Nuclear Power in Poland? Yes, please! Absolutely nobody disagrees! [73]


Well at least there are some reasonable alternatives. That's the most important. I'm a bit shiverish when it comes to nuclear energy, so (clean) alternatives are always welcome.

>^..^<

M-G (we have to save Mother Earth after all, the woman all men worldwide should love)

News / Nuclear Power in Poland? Yes, please! Absolutely nobody disagrees! [73]


Wisecrack :)

I don't know the specifice, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that you even with a clouded sky can avail of solar energy...Seems you only need daylight. But again, I am not sure.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


Nobody does. I'm sure he doesn't even know himself. Apparently he thinks he is smart or sth. According to him for every bad thing the Poles did, there has to be at least one or two bad thing(s) the Jews did to keep the balance. In his world it's unthinkable that Poles did anything bad at all without being "provoked" by Jews, so Jews are the evil ones, behind everything, even when it is Poles who did it. So far on Jola.

To answer the question: yes, any anti-semitic law valid on Polish territory with Poland being an independent state is made by ethnic Poles. Or would you rather think that it's logical that Jews participated in making laws that were directed at themselves?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / Nuclear Power in Poland? Yes, please! Absolutely nobody disagrees! [73]

Solar is indeed one of the best energy sources there is. And always available. But if they deperately want nuclear energy, then go ahead. We probably will be sending packages again when the (nuclear) winter comes knocking at the door, like we did in the 70's and 80's.

>^..^<

M-G (is in favour of durable energy like wind and solar - better for Mother Earth as well)

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Well, you come to a certain point at which you have to start believing what they tell you. If you don't, you will get crazy as you see ghosts everywhere and believe simply nothing what they tell you. As as long as nobody of us has access to the archive concerning the investigation, you can do two things: believe it or don't believe it. Either way you will never know if it's the right thing to believe. It's such a waste of time and energy to try to figure out what you will never know for sure. Maybe the official version is the correct one? You don't know. And besides, what good would it do IF it turnes out to be not the truth what they tell you? Do you get more income if you knew in that hypothetical situation?

All I'm saying is that all this conspiracy stuff is just a waste of time and energy; time and energy you could use to do more productive and creative things. Besides that, you would also get pretty embarrassed if it turns out after all that the official version is the correct one.

>^..^<

M-G (but I guess it's a game in all)

Food / Poles prefer pizza & kebab? [73]

Well, sometimes I don't feel like cooking for nearly an hour, especially when it's only for myself, knowing that it will be gone in about 10 minutes. So in that case I would choose sth easy, like pizza, a few sandwiches or sth like that. Due to my health restrictions I unfortunately cannot consider McD or BK an option, but if I hadn't, then every now and then I would choose them, yes.

>^..^<

M-G (Spaniards galore, gee)

Food / Poles prefer pizza & kebab? [73]


That makes sense, have to check tomorrow in my local franchise of "Lithuania" :)

And Seanus, I know you are :)) So am I as well, good food makes the heart grow fonder and any woman who has ever created a lasting impression on me was the one that cooked superb :))

>^..^<

M-G (loves good food)

Food / Poles prefer pizza & kebab? [73]

Yeah ok, I just called it "Bouillon" because I didn't know how you call the liquid you can buy in the skleps to make Żurek. Indeed, the Polish ppl that cooked it for me were indeed from Silesia, but as a side remark, it seems that most Polish ppl here in Dubs are from Silesia, for some strange reason.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)