Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I'm asking a question, Atch :) You wrote that "Russian men being Slavs would be less inclined to look down on women of another Slavic nation". That would suggest that non-Slavs would be more inclined to look down on Slavs? Why would that be? Slavs look down on other Slavs too, for various reasons lol Some Russians look down on Poles, but for different reasons than Westerners. Some Poles look down on Russians also, usually for similar reasons for which Westerners look down on Poles, funnily enough. Some Czechs look down on Poles, allegedly, because the Czechs are atheists and Poles are religious.

Everybody is looking down on somebody in this world, I'm afraid :)


No, I didn't. I wrote that there's a stereotype concerning Polish and Eastern European women in the West. Eastern European doesn't equal "Slavic".


But I didn't write about Irish men. I wrote about British men. I have nothing to say about Irish men because I haven't met any, as far as I know, and on PF they seem to be in minority.


Of course! lol
Some Westerners get married only to the exceptions to the rule among the Polish nation, it seems ;)))


What do you mean by that?


I don't generally see Polish men doing that either o_O Where did you see that?
As for the vibe - I know it, because I've experienced it myself. Not in Poland though. I've experienced it in Italy (fortunately I didn't know Italian so I didn't know what they were shouting at me lol). Polish men are nothing like this, at least where I live.


Again, I haven't observed any such a thing... Unless you mean some nasty old grandpas in some God-forgotten village then maybe you're right.

Btw, I can spot a Westerner only by the disturbing way they look at the women here in Poland. I've already written about this on PF once. A Polish guy, if he passes by a beautiful woman he turns his head once after her and that's it. In case of Western men - they gape into women as if they haven't seen a woman in their lives. The woman doesn't even have to be beautiful - which puzzles me even more. Even if a man is young and handsome and walking with and talking to a pretty girl already he would be looking for an eye contact with the woman passing by them. For me that's sleazy, tbh.


Atch, to be honest, I had an impression that you were justifying those men in a way. And that you were being "deliberately obtuse" yourself.

I think the reason "why" is pretty obvious - you gave an example yourself - Thailand.
The tables are turned, for example, in Egypt. In Egypt it's the Polish women who are sex tourists nowadays. The reason is simple - economic situation in Egypt. One Polish woman who is married to an Egyptian man and lives in Sharm el-Sheikh, a city tailored for tourists, wrote on her blog that in November this year (the bombing of that Russian airplane was a big blow for tourism) an Egyptian man approached her Polish acquaintance at the Old Market and simply asked whether she needs "a slave". This guy was so desperate because of unemployment that he was ready to do anything for some food and a roof over his head.

It's always going to be like that with poorer vs richer countries.
But some men somehow refuse to realise this and think that it's somehow a "character trait" of Polish/Slavic/Eastern European women. And that's what I'm against.


Why is that? Most of the women I wrote about were sexually harassed in the UK and only one in Italy.


Why not? Was there some tectonic break up of Europe and those countries floated somewhere else? ;)


I don't know about "relaxed" attitude towards sex, to be honest, I was too young for that.
Lately I've seen a documentary about Polish martial law refugees on TVP1 and one of them returned for a brief moment with a Western humanitarian aid convoy to Poland and she said that the poverty was terrible. I myself remember, when I was a little kid, standing in a long line after meat in "sklep mięsny" with a stamp on my hand to prove that I'm "legally" in the line lol I remember the times when it was difficult to get toilet paper :/ I even remember being angry at my dad that he didn't bring it - I was convinced that he just didn't try hard enough to get it ;/ I was just a silly kid, little did I know...

So I'm not surprised, people could be pretty desperate.

TheOther, even if people in the communist countries had a more "relaxed" attitude towards sex than their western counterparts, I think what followed after the fall of communism was probably more crucial. Economic situation in Poland was dismal. In Russia it was even worse. Poles would try to get into the West to find work, legally or illegally, and, hence, sex trafficking was rife. Polish women would end up in brothels in the West and Russian women in Turkey. Apparently, Russian female name "Natasha" is a word for a prostitute in Turkey.

Nowadays, it's mainly the Romanian women who are sex trafficked in the West, apparently, judging by what I found out by watching Euronews

There were articles, documentaries about this stuff, films - for example: "Your Name Is Justine", "Trade" with Kevin Kline and a Polish actress - I recommend the second one especially. Apparently it was based on this article:

nytimes.com/2004/01/25/magazine/the-girls-next-door.html?_r=0


I really recommend reading the article, it's long but it's quite an eye opener. I needed a week to recover after watching that film "Trade". I must say I've seen a few documentaries on this topic about different countries and the extent of evil, cruelty and filth in this world is unbelievable.

So, to sum it up, I suspect it probably has a lot to do with the sex industry, actually.


Why offensive?


I'm not sure what's your point? It's not like there weren't women prostituting themselves in communist Poland lol Of course it was a taboo for communist governments because prostitution was seen as a capitalist exploitation of women but it doesn't mean that there weren't any people ready to sell their bodies for whatever they needed.

It's just in the West prostitutes had higher expectations in the payment department, for obvious reasons, I imagine and as TheOther wrote there were many things you couldn't get without Western currency. It probably can be hard to imagine for someone born in the West, but in those times a bottle of Scotch, a box of Western ciggarattes, a pair of jeans, a vinyl with Western music or simply dollars were "something", a kind of a "holy grail" in a way ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_Girl_(2012_film) - Sweedish film about what was going on in the 1970s, I've watched it on AleKino! some time ago, pretty gross stuff, especially that it's based on real political scandal.

After all, it's allegedly the oldest profession in the world and it was and it is present in whatever country and under whichever political system and regime.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


So you would say Westerners are likely to look down on Slavs?


Russian men have some slight fascination with Polish women sometimes, at least those who grew up in the communist times, from what I've noticed. Maybe it's because of all those Polish actresses who played in Soviet films.

They (and Poles) are also (surprisingly, I guess) more respectful and... I don't know... more gentlemanlike towards women than British men, for example (at least that's my observation).


That would be my guess, but you would have to ask those men, not me...

Btw, Atch, you're not being terribly polite by writing about my "fits" all the time, just saying... :P


Atch, I don't care why this image came into being. It's no excuse. Women shouldn't be treated like this.
One of my friends worked as a waitress and lived in a room over a restaurant in which she worked in Italy. The owner had a key to her room and one night he was trying to get inside. She had to block the door with furniture so he wouldn't get in. That was f*cking scary for her!

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Atch, InPolska is one of many Westerners who settled in Poland for their Polish partners. Many of those Westerners have similar attitude towards Poland and Poles despite the fact that their partners are alive. So, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it.


To some extent you're right but it's the Polish and Eastern European women that seem to have such "reputation" in the West. I have never seen comments like this, for example, from Russian men about Polish women and I've been discussing with Russians for years...


The difference is, though, that I'm not making sweeping, ridiculous generalisations about Western men. You wouldn't see me writing that 99% of Western men are this or that (disgusting molesting pigs, for example), despite what my friends have been through, or that 99% of people in the West or anywhere else think this or that.


I could say the same thing about the British (at least judging by those on PF) :)


Can't say I can talk about a whole generation like I know everything... Aren't you generalising a bit?


Of course, and societies and people are changing too, I guess, due to all kinds of circumstances.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]

That's nice of you, dolnoslask :) Maybe at some point you could try to talk him into getting some treatment...

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I have no idea what this means...


Oh, I would say she does stick out among the "fighters for tolerance" with the stupidity and recklessness of her comments, to be honest.

As for Ktos and others like him - they are not fighters for tolerance, they're pretty straightforward about who they are and hence - not hypocrites (and they're usually beyond help anyway, my guess is).

In other words - I expect more from liberals and leftists in the tolerance department, from people advocating tolerance, etc. than from racist, intolerant people.


Are Westerners on PF any less "touchy" and less "quick to pick up on anything they perceive" as racist, anti-Muslim, anti-Semitic, etc, though? Really?

Btw, when there was and there is such need I behaved and behave in the same way when I'm defending Russians against Poles, when I'm criticising Poles on the Polish internet. I guess that's something people here don't realise about me and hence you probably think that I'm some overly patriotic, touchy person :) I'm generally a sensitive person, not only about Poles...


No, I was dismissive of your appeal to give her a break.


OK, Atch, let's talk about something real.
Let's talk, for example, about why I'm so "extremely touchy" and so "quick to pick up" on comments about Polish women on this forum. I see you registered not long ago, so maybe you don't know what was going on this forum before. What was written here about Polish women. Things like that being prostitutes is a "character trait" of Polish women and similar stuff. I guess you would probably say that those were just some "over the top things" and that it was "all very superficial". But those men who wrote those things could be one of those men that my friends told me about.

You see, I have female Polish friends and acquaintances, my age and younger, who worked in the West and most of them experienced sexual harassment and vulgar, offensive name calling by Western men when they were over there. No, none of them were prostitutes, in case you wonder, but all of them were attractive and Polish (and most of them in the UK). So, either being sexually harassing disgusting pigs is a "character trait" of Western men or the stereotypes and prejudices about Polish women being repeated by Western men from one to another have (and not being challenged by anyone, apparently - as it often was the case on PF) made so much damage that men think there's nothing wrong in viewing and treating Polish women like that.

So, yes, it's kind of personal for me - you didn't see their eyes when they were talking about this... (and, btw, that was their only complaint about the UK and British people, they never said a bad word about either). They are lovely, modest, normal, friendly girls and women - they didn't deserve any of that.

For you it's just "comments on the internet", but for me it's a sign of something more sinister.


Atch, in all honesty, I think it's simply her "character trait". (;))


Because she won't get it. She's not the reflective type, it seems. I think she needs some shock therapy :P


Not really, I guess I've adapted a bit of Harry-like style of hammering people on their heads after years of writing on this forum. Plus I don't have the time right now to word my comments in the most careful way.


Not me.

Do you even like him? Why do you call him your "friend"?

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Her comments often are outrageous, to the point of being moronic. Her claim that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes is just one of the examples (I picked the most ridiculous one). What irritates me the most about her (together with all the loudest, most judgemental and self-righteous Western fighters for tolerance on PF) is her hypocrisy. She's against generalising about Muslims and other groups with "special protection status" in the West, but she herself is making the most ridiculous generalisations I've seen on the internet (about Poles and not only).


"But so what..." lol

So, if I start behaving like her and writing stuff like "99% of Jews think that Arabs are apes" (a nod to Naftali Bennett) I will be excused by you?

Or is it OK to write just anything about Poles, no matter how untrue and outrageous it is? Because it's about Poles, so who cares, right?


That's right, it was you who told people here to "give this woman a break". And I don't understand why. You think she's the only one on this forum who has someone burried in Poland and who had or has health problems? Why would she get a preferential treatment?


Why? Is she supposed to not to be criticised for anything on this forum because her husband passed away at some point in her life? Are you serious?


I understand that perfectly, but what does it have to do with a claim that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes made by her? Or her looking down on Polish and Eastern European women, for example?


Yes, thank you, Atch. Empathy towards Poles is something that quite a few Westerners were (and some still are) lacking over the years on this forum, in my opinion.

People seem to forget too often here that Poles are real, flesh and blood human beings, just like Muslims, just like Jews, just like blacks, etc.

It's not pleasant to be on the receiving end of the non-empathic comments, believe me.
I'm nice towards nice people and judgemental towards judgemental people. She's honest about what she thinks about Poles and I was honest about what I think about her (I haven't offended her husband in any way and I'm not going to write ridiculous, generalising comments about the French because of her). Nothing more.

She's not in her early teens, Atch (and that's what I thought when I first started reading her comments), she's apparently much older than I am, well-travelled, she should know better, she should realise what she's writing, she's not a kid that could be excused and so I see no reason to treat her like a child with "special needs". She does have fits of sanity and even wisdom, but for the rest of the time her behaviour is unacceptable for me, especially considering how judgemental and full of herself she is.

She didn't even retract any of her ridiculous comments, like the one I'm quoting all the time (in the hope that maybe she would understand her error and back out of it).

So how am I supposed to treat her seriously?


The fact that he said that doesn't mean that he is, clearly lol

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Wow, the great mistery solved lol They moved to another city. Now, my question is - did they suddenly stop answering your messages and answering your calls the minute they set their feet on the soil of those other cities or it did happen gradually over time?

As I wrote before, I myself have problems with keeping in touch with people that moved abroad, for example. It's also more difficult to sustain a relationship even when someone is living in another city in the country. Such ties get "relaxed" over time and often they die a natural death. That's nothing surprising for me and nothing unusual in my opinion and I somehow doubt it's a specifically "Polish trait" and not a general "human trait".

My best friend from high school, for example, right after finishing high school moved to Paris to study art at the Sorbonne, because she loved art and French language and culture and it was her dream. For me it was a bit of a blow and I missed her a lot at first and we would write a lot to each other initially, letters and then e-mails and we would meet when she was coming to visit Poland but during a few years we both would write less and less frequently and at some point the contact just died. I was very busy with my studies, I've met my next best friend and other friends at the uni - life got in the way, as I wrote earlier. I can imagine the same happened to her.


That's something I don't entirely understand. If you were friends then how come you don't know where they are? You don't know where they live, where they work?


That's something I'm trying to determine :) It doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen to people that I know - so it's logical to look for different theories.

It was dolnoslask, not Roger5 and he wrote it happens to him from time to time and that those people usually show up when they need money. Which brings me to the conclusion that they aren't really his friends, that's a no-brainer really.


Not sure how the comment about cleaning toilets was necessary - if you wanted to show your superiority to economic migrants from Poland then that's just low :)

Now, tell me - which countries and for how long?
Also, how people end friendships and acquaintanceships in your country and in the countries you lived in? Do they write long e-mails explaining why they are terminating their relations? Do you meet over a coffee and say something like: "Listen, here's the thing, I don't feel like hanging out with you anymore, I have more interesting friends now and/or just don't have the time for you, etc., sorry"?


As I already wrote, for those Poles not answering your messages may be the nicer way, in their view, of ditching you than telling you: "I don't want to hang out with you anymore, stop bothering me."


If you're asking whether such word exists, then yes - it does :) And there's nothing paranoid about it - one can be prejudiced against any ethnicity, including Polish one.


It doesn't change a thing, in my opinion, a person can be prejudiced, chauvinistic, etc. even if married to a Pole or any other ethnicity. It's weird, I know, but I've seen it before. It's a bit like a racist person claiming he's/she's not racist because he/she has a black friend while writing clearly prejudiced comments. Sorry, but that's just not enough for me. Don't hide behind your family, it doesn't work for me.


Why is that? Only you can be a "lecturer" on this forum? Noone can "lecture" you, hmm? :)


It's rich coming from one of the most judgemental people on this forum. Not pleasant when it's happening to you, huh? :) I'm "judging" people in the same way as others do that on this forum, including you, based on their comments - for example, when you're calling people "racist mob" you're judging them while knowing NOTHING about their lives, right?


I simply provided you with a few theories (some more serious ones, some not so much :)) based on the info you provided and your character traits you display constantly on this forum.

And I must say I find it hard to accept the assessment of the level of my intelligence from someone who claims that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes :)


The thing is, InPolska, that you were called a chauvinist (or a xenophobe, I don't remember exactly) by TheOther who's an Australian with German roots living in the US, who spent most of his life living in different countries and who isn't a racist nor a Pole. I've also seen you being criticised quite a few times by non-racist non-Poles on this forum. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to look in the mirror from time to time? Or are you just too perfect fot that? :)


YES, I knew it! lol Your husband was "different", of course :) Prejudiced people always say that, btw. "I have a black friend, but he's different, you know, and the rest of them... well... you know..." etc. :)


I'm sure there are Poles like that, but there's also the opposite side - Westerners for whom Poles just have to be the worst kind of people on the whole planet. I'm not kidding - the whole planet - it's like everything bad about humans is specific to Poles :)


I know, I was told the same thing by Russian nationalists who seemed to be pretty obsessed with Poland and Poles and at the same time they claimed they don't give a sh1t :) ;)


Well, you can bury your head in the sand if you wish, it's your choice, of course, if you prefer only to be patted on the back all the time and when people only agree with you, etc. But it's a public internet forum, so you must be prepared that people won't share your opinions, views, etc.

I also don't see anything "hysterical" about my post (feel free to quote the "hysterical" parts).


Paranoia concerning what exactly?


Aren't we discussing just that - common Polish character traits (at least as viewed by InPolska)?


I know, but I'm trying to make some people realise that they behave in the same way that racists, anti-Semites, etc. behave. That they're being hypocrites.

They accuse Poles of being "rude" because cashiers aren't smiling at them and at the same time - look at what they are writing about Poland and Poles behind their backs. I don't mean some founded criticism but the shear contempt verging sometimes on hate, some absoultely moronic generalisations like that "99% of Poles think that black people are apes". It's just mind-boggling for me.


Nor do I (not anymore, that is), I'm just trying to make some people look in the mirror.


Yes, me too, but that's changing, I think. I changed myself in that respect - after I actually got to know those foreigners and realised they are no better than Poles.


I hope so, but we'll see about that :)


My thoughts exactly.


So when I'll start telling on a forum about my personal problems, including my health problems, I'll be cut a slack too? lol

I don't see how her loss of a husband (I guess it didn't happen yesterday, did it) or her past health problems justify her often outrageous behaviour on this forum? Noone forces her to come here and write ridiculous stuff like "99% of Poles think that black people are apes". Also, noone here seems to care much about what Poles have been through over the years when they're passing their judgements, etc. People don't cut any slack here, so why should we, right?

What I've learned on this forum about Westerners is that there's no point in being nice to them, you're just going to be considered "thin-skinned", "oversensitive", etc. So I use their ways in order to get to them - one has to simply "hammer" stuff into their heads, apparently :P


Well, yes, it actually does make sense, especially if those were some loose contacts, acquaintances. Of course, the question is whether this happened suddenly or over a period of time, whether those people were close with each other, etc.


It depends on the circumstances. Did it happen suddenly or over a period of time? Plus, even brothers can fall out. There are members of family in this world that don't even speak to each other lol

And, OMG, not all relationships last forever. Sometimes they simply... end :P


When you have many friends and acquaintances? Sometimes quite a bit :) But I think they were trying to be polite. What were they supposed to say? That they didn't answer because they didn't feel like it and they wanted you to leave them alone and stop bothering them?


Yes, yes, you've made it clear many times how superior you are to Poles and how proud of it you are lol You also seem to feel some great need to share those feelings of superiority and pride with us on this forum :)


Are you saying that you're still loyal to your friends from kindergarten? ;D Come on...

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]

Even the media seemed to get fooled into thinking that PiS got wiser, at least a bit... Maybe it was just wishful thinking. And now it's like everyone suddenly woke up... lol

Well, we'll see what happens next...

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]

lol It's funny that an adult man can be so naive... Bashar al-Assad looks like a normal European politician, he even reminds me of that noble highlander from some Polish "mountain" beer commercial - and so what... All that glitters is not gold. I see past the surface...

Politicians may show more of their true face once they get the full power...
vimeo.com/25741586

It's always better to be safe than sorry... And to look at the hands of politicians... Even if they're from the political party that you like.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Indeed, I wouldn't. But the look in his face creeped me out. Just like what's going on in Poland right now. I don't want to live in another Orbanland or Putinland, I'm worried :(

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Now that's a good question concerning not only Poles but also other nations. If I were God I'm sure I could answer it lol


Don't crack me up, Polonius3, not now lol I was observing Kaczyński, his bulging eyes, shining with unhealthy excitement and creepy smile during the discussion about the Constitutional Tribunal in the parliament and this scene sprang into my mind:

youtube.com/watch?v=e_DqV1xdf-Y
xD

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I'm always amazed by this strange ability of people on PF - they always seem to stumble upon the worst kind of people in Poland lol I've never had a friend of mine asking me for money (or an acquaintance for that matter). I never asked them either.


Strange, if it's such a unique and startling "Polish trait" then why haven't I ever heard of it before? I mean, I've read all kinds of things about Poles on PF, the wildest and most ridiculous exaggerations and generalisations (including yours) but this is something new.


I was born here and I've been living in Poland all my life and it never happened to me.
The only thing I have a problem with, I admit, is keeping in touch with people who have become long-distance friends since they've moved abroad but that's simply because life gets in the way and it's easier to focus on what is near you. That's natural, imho, and happens everywhere.

So, since what you've described never happened to me I can only guess about the reasons and I have 4 awesome theories:

1. You're lying, just like when you claimed that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes.

2. Your relationships with those Poles were great only from your point of view. It's possible they weren't so great for them and so they put an end to it. Maybe when they got to know you better they realised how anti-Polish you are and sensed how much you dislike Poland (you admitted yourself that you don't want to live here) and they couldn't stomach it (and/or your personality) in the long run. You write that the reason for sudden loss of contact is due to the fact that Poles are "rude" according to the foreigners you know. In another thread you wrote that it's because Poles are "cruel" lol In my opinion it's the exact opposite. I often heard and read from foreign men how nice and "humane" Polish girls/women are in comparison to their Western counterparts when turning a guy down. I even remember Steffen Möller mentioning this when he was comparing Polish and German women. He said that a German woman would just bark out an angry "NO!" into the guy's face and make him feel like a looser while a Polish woman would take the guy's number when offered and would even say she'll call but she never would (which he found to be confusing and irritating, of course ;)). So, for a Polish person it's not "rude" or "cruel" - it's the opposite of being rude and cruel, actually. They think it's the nice way to resolve something like this. I may be wrong, of course, but I think Poles aren't very confrontational, they prefer to be nice then hurt someone. They may prefer to stay away from you then to tell you what's wrong, why they started disliking you, etc.

Btw, did you know these people at your workplace or outside of it?

3. It's a foreigner thing. Dolnoslask mentioned something about money, so maybe some people are a "friend" version of a gold digger lol But you haven't mentioned anything about money so I have no idea...

4. Those people actually died and that's why they didn't contact you :P I don't know, maybe they got hit by a car or were eaten by wolves in the mountains or those polar bears that walk the streets in Poland and drink vodka :P

Btw, InPolska, in what countries have you lived and for how long?


For all those years that you lived in Poland it happened to you 5 times and you write that this trait is common among many Poles? *smh*


That's how I often feel when I read your (and other) comments about Poles on this forum.


You are most annoying, prejudiced, chauvinistic, weird, immature for your age and full of yourself (sorry, but that's what I think). I do NOT understand how you "function" lol


I don't know what "rarely" is for you so I can't comment. In my opinion Poles are rather private people and it's possible they are more likely to invite people they really like and want to invite. On the other hand I've been invited by all kinds of people to their homes - by my family, friends, classmates, work colleagues... so... hmm... *shrugs*

Although I must say that in my experience people like to simply meet in cafes, clubs, etc. probably because you don't have to clean up your place and prepare the food and drinks then and another reason may be the fact that Poles often live in small flats and if one wants to invite even just a few people the place can get pretty cramped.


I agree with Ktos.

(always willing to explain the complexities of the Polish/human soul lol)

Wow, you can even find the info I provided on the internet on some British site! lol I googled "being invited by a Pole to home" out of curiosity and look what I found:

kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/poland.html

"Poles are known for being direct communicators, i.e. they say what they are thinking. However they are also very sensitive to other's feelings and let that determine how and what they say.

. While direct communication is valued in Poland, there is also emphasis on finessing what is said in order to deliver information in a diplomatic way.

. The level of the relationship mostly determines how direct someone can be.
. For newly established and more formal relationships, a great deal of emphasis is placed on diplomacy. Once a relationship has passed through the initial phases, people feel more comfortable speaking frankly with each other and animated exchanges become more common."

This is 100% true in my opinion - couldn't put it better myself o_O
Btw, this is probably one of the reasons why I often have problems with Westerners here - the way they write about Poles and Poland... I think many Poles would find it rude (verging on unnecessary cruelty) to write in such a way about a foreign country and people...

Life / Funeral Traditions in Poland [68]


Are you male or female?
Men should take off any hats etc. while inside.
In Russia, for example, women usually cover their heads.
You could use a scarf/shawl:
kolumber.pl/photos/show/golist:29575/page:41

I don't know if it's the same in Poland, to be honest. Here's apparently an Orthodox wedding ceremony in Poland and women aren't wearing anything on their heads *shrugs*:

blog.fotomarko.pl/2009/07/prawoslawna-ceremonia-zaslubin

But better take a shawl with you (if you're a woman), just in case. Apparently women should wear skirts (rather longer than shorter ;)) - that's the tradition or sth but I don't know if it's so strict nowadays.

General info:
antiochian.org/content/first-visit-orthodox-church-twelve-things-i-wish-id-known

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


I would interpret it in the context of the rest of his post that you partly quoted: https://polishforums.com/history/poland-terrible-past-jews-57810/11/#msg1471081

I even did that to some extent in my previous post but you still don't get it?
I don't know, maybe you need to be a Pole to understand what he was trying to do...
So, am I supposed to explain at length, again, just like I explained things in my post #356 why Poles who are not anti-Semitic write the things they write?


There was no "therefore".
It was simply his response to you mentioning the throwing out of Germans from Poland (quote from your post: "After May 8th, 1945 ... ").


It's still there (#352).


No, to be honest I don't see sarcasm in that. That's the way I understand sarcasm:
"The use of strategies which, on the surface appear to be appropriate to the situation, but are meant to be taken as meaning the opposite in terms of face management." (from the definition of sarcasm in Wikipedia).

Unless you don't really mean what you wrote then I would agree with you since I'm not flogging any dead horse - I wrote what I had to say about it and I'm done.


Well then it was too veiled and vague for me, sorry. Seems to me Polonius3 didn't get it either since he asked "When were those Lutherans expelled?"

Next time maybe ditch the "British way" of asking a question and try the straightforward Slavic way - simply ask the question...
I've interpreted what you wrote, or rather your intentions, in a completely different way than you're explaining it here.
I don't know, maybe we need here some kind of Western to Eastern and Eastern to Western translator lol


Unlike you about what Polonius3 wrote? lol :)


lol
No, I don't think that and I doubt that is what Polonius3 meant. Actually I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant. Nothing of what he wrote indicates that to me. You're connecting his posts in a way that is completely weird to me.

In case I'm wrong, why don't you simply ask Polonius3 whether he meant what you think he meant?


o_O
Jesus effin Christ...
Next time you'll write that I sound like I'm a camel and I will have to explain myself that I'm not a camel... xD

I honestly have no strength for you, TheOther... :) What the hell is wrong with you?
I wrote about historical facts because the overrepresentation of Jews in directorship of the MBP in 1944-1954 is a historical fact and you seemed to be undermining it: "The MBP numbers above are to be taken with a grain of salt then."


You didn't. Not the first and most probably not the last time either...


Gee, I hope you don't make a living as a comedian.
And I'm a PO voter if you have to know. My very first parliamentary election I took part in was when we voted PiS out of power - and that was the sole reason I participated in it, actually - just to get rid of PiS :)


Why on Earth would I waste my time like that? If you know about Polonius3' post that would shed new light on what Polonius3 wrote on page 11 then, by all means, direct me to it.


True, the same can be said about all the rest of the countries of "the communist block" that were "liberated" by the Soviet Union and countries like Estonia that were incorporated into the Soviet Union against their will.


Yup.


I meant that you did misunderstand what I wrote... It's late and I'm tired, sorry ;P

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


I haven't read the whole thread, but I've read the posts you picked and I still don't know what's your point? What does Marek11111 and Varsovian have to do with Polonius3, me and Vox? They're Polish? Such connection is enough for you?


Help me with what? I wrote in one of my posts that "there are some really hopeless cases of anti-Semites who see Jews in probably every communist that ever lived in Poland". Marek11111 is a great example of that lol But what those posts from 3 years ago have to do with the present discussion? Polonius3 didn't write that "after ww2 90% of Polish communist ware Jews". He didn't write that "people of Jewish faith are genetically predisposed to become a bloody communist, inflicting terror on his country" and I haven't seen him blaming Jews "for the communist era in Poland". After he gave the statistics concerning the ethnic makeup of MBP directors in 1944-1954 he then wrote in the same post "Can we blame them? Of course not. War and its aftermath brutalizes everyone and makes survival the supreme goal." He wrote both about Jews serving the Soviet-imposed regime and Polish szmalcownicy during the Nazi occupation.

Although I can't really entirely agree with him that we "can't blame them". My grandfather's family didn't turn into "szmalcowniks*" or anything of this sort despite the fact that they were starving. They were farmers but they were literally starving, because Germans were taking all the food. My grandfather's teenage sister died because they had no money for a medicine. "Such was the poverty at that time" - my mum said.

And I don't think you had to necessarily be a MBP director to survive in post-war Poland. People simply made such choices.

* szmalcowniks (org. szmalcownicy) - those Poles who were giving out Jews to the Nazis for money and were blackmailing Poles who were hiding them and giving them out too - I'm sorry but for me they were the scum of this Earth and they were regarded as such by the Home Army (Armia Krajowa)

That's what the term "szmalcownicy" means, Polonius3. They weren't just people who were "taking over Jewish property" o_O


No, this is called pettiness. Your "sarcasm" was uncalled-for and had nothing to do with Polonius3' comment. Polonius3 was writing about religious tolerance in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. What on Earth does it have to do with events after the end of the World War II??


What does this smiley change exactly?

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


Which things "don't leave room for interpretation" and by whom were they presented exactly? What are you talking about, TheOther?


Where are all those people who see the things you see then? For now I only see you making some wild and false assumptions about views of people writing here (including me) and some of your comments simply don't relate to what people are writing (like the one about Lutherans).

Maybe read again what was written, but this time without prejudice?

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


Well, that's not a very helpful feedback, jon357... How am I supposed to know which points I made are "very interesting" and which are "repetitions of things refuted by people earlier" according to you?


Thank you, Polonius3, I'm glad that someone appreciates the effort I put into this :)


So what? It wasn't used this way this time. Just because some morons use this or that to support some false notions normal people are supposed to negate historical facts?


I wrote "Westerners", not "silly Westerners".


No, it doesn't - I'm sorry, the Other, but it's all in your head. Polonius3 simply stated simple facts - statistics - it's up to you what you'll make of those facts.


*facepalm*

Well, the Other, if I ever actually say something like that, feel free to tell me in my face that I'm not worthy to even bow my head over the bones of those Jewish officers buried somewhere under the birch trees of the Katyn forest.

Does this answer your question...?


No, why would you even ask such a question? Polonius3 wrote, I quote: "no religious groups was ever expelled from Poland".
Germans after the World War II weren't thrown out of Poland for being Lutherans and you made it sound like they were.


To be honest, I don't think I've seen Jews being "blamed for the communist era in Poland" even by Polish nationalists on the Polish internet. The Soviet Union is blamed for "the communist era in Poland" (maybe you're confusing it with Russian nationalists blaming the Bolshevik Revolution on Jews?).

If anything, Jews are being blamed for serving the communist regime. But Poles who did that are blamed for this too. There are some really hopeless cases of anti-Semites who see Jews in probably every communist that ever lived in Poland lol But I don't see anyone doing this during our discussion in this thread so... why are you even bringing this up? o_O


Where that quote says that no (ethnic) Pole ever served the communist terror apparatus?

I have to agree with Vox, here, the Other. It seems to me you're discussing not with us but with some people in your head or with ghosts from PF's past. Please, maybe try to focus on what people are actually writing here and now...

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]



So, can you enlighten us on this matter, jon357?


So what? Polish kings were usually to some extent a product of the Polish society and there was a period of Polish history when they were elected by the nobles.You think the British aren't proud of their, for example, Elizabeth I of England? It seems to me they are. It looks like they're even proud of Elizabeth II, although I'm not entirely sure why.

There were kings in Polish history that Poles are proud of and there were kings that Poles are ashamed of.
Are Poles allowed to be ever only ashamed of everything?
It's tiring and depressing, you know?
Every nation has a need to have something positive in their history, some kind of positive heritage, something that a nation could take an example of even. Having something like that is healthy for the collective psyche of any nation.

When I was at school the tolerance of the Polish Crown (shown not only to Jews, but also to others, like, for example, Scots,both Catholics and Protestants) and a kind of multiculturalism of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was being presented as something positive, an example that should be followed and I think it's a good thing.

One more thing - if Poles are giving examples of relative tolerance of Poland in some of its past they're usually not doing that to take some kind of credit for that or whatever, but to show we're not some kind of "genetic anti-Semites" or "genetic intolerant bastards" or "genetic monsters" or "genetic whatever". Because we feel that there's some kind of label put on us and we're tired of this. OK?


All of them? Always? How do you even know that?


As opposite to Germans, right? lol I don't think it's a fair statement, yehudi - the Polish society after the partitions wasn't the same as the Polish society before the partitions. So I don't think it's OK for us to say that after Poland regained independence Poles somehow showed their "true colours" (if that's what you mean).

Btw, did you know about the Pale of Settlement ? If you (and others) didn't then I wrote a bit about it here:
https://polishforums.com/history/poland-european-anti-semitism-29186/6/#msg1462696
You think such thigs didn't affect Polish society? Of course they did.
Do you remember the town of Chmielnik I wrote about in one of the threads on PF? It's in my region, not that far from Kielce, "the pogrom city". Polonius3 mentioned Arians, the Polish Brethren who were members of the Minor Reformed Church of Poland, a Nontrinitarian Protestant church that existed in Poland from 1565 to 1658. In the 16th and 17th centuries Chmielnik was a major centre of Polish Protestants (Calvinists and the Polish Brethren). On the basis of privilege granted by Krzysztof Gołuchowski in the second part of the 17th century the town was populated by Sephardi Jews expelled from Spain. They built a synagogue in 1638 and took over houses and shops of the Polish Brethren expelled from the town in 1658.

Nowadays they are probably no Jews in Chmielnik and most probably no Protestants either.
Societies change during the course of history for all kinds of reasons. Look at Germans.
Today's Polish society is different than it was centuries ago, it's even different than it was before the war. It's already different than the post-war society even.

Other European societies change too, not necessarily for the better. I've heard the right is on the rise all over, UKIP won the election to the European Parliament in the UK, Le Pen's National Front won in France, there's Orban in Hungary and let's not forget the "lovely" Mr. Putin in Russia...

Things change, people, panta rhei...
And we can turn the table, too, history is a b1tch this way, I guess lol Or maybe it's God giving the humanity a poignant lesson in humility - once the Jews got their own state look at what they're doing to Palestinians... Jews aren't a nation of victims anymore, nowadays they are a nation of perpetrators (and that's nothing new really - victims turning into perpetrators - it's as old as humankind, I guess). I'm writing this with all seriousness and sadness (and disappointment too, to some extent). In 50 years time or more your grandchildren will have to "świecić oczami", as we say in Poland, for what Israel/Israelis did and is/are doing. Of course there are and there will be justifications being given, explanations (they always are), just as I am explaining things to you and as some others are giving justifications. And some will be in total denial. As many in Israel are now, probably.

I don't usually use this argument but sometimes I have an impression that some people need a reality check form time to time.


If they are differentiated on other occasions (usually by you, Westerners, and by Jews themselves) than why not in this case too?


What faith? lol They were communists.


Why is that? Those numbers are based on ethnicity, not nationality.


Aren't they of the same ethnicity? Jews in Poland weren't just of different faith but also of different ethnicity. And what about Catholic Jews? lol They weren't (and aren't) ethnically Jewish?


Were they expelled for being Lutherans? Nope.


Yes and this can be said of members of any ethnicity. Lately I've read about Baruch Steinberg, Chief Rabbi of the Polish Army during German invasion of Poland in 1939 who, like many other Jewish officers, was murdered in the Katyn massacre by the Soviets in April 1940.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Steinberg

I can imagine there were some Jewish members of the NKVD shooting their religious brothers in their heads.
Now, can we move on? I don't think anyone claims in this thread that there were no (ethnic) Poles serving the communist terror apparatus.

As for differentiating between Jews and Poles - it's a complicated matter. There were in the past and are Jews who didn't and don't consider themselves Poles. They consider themselves "Polish Jews" at best. Yesterday I've read an interesting note of Ela Sidi at her blog - she's an author of a book "Izrael oswojony" (I guess it could be translated as "Tamed Israel") - it's about everyday Israel and Israelis seen through the eyes of a Pole living there. She's a gentile who married an Israeli and has been living in Israel since 1991. She asked her fellow "Poles" (Jewish ones) who moved to Israel whether they consider themselves Poles, part of Polonia abroad. To her surprise (and disappointment, I guess) most of them answered "No", despite those people were born and bred in Poland, speaking Polish among themselves in Israel, always interested in Polish culture and even taking part in creating it and popularising it, visiting Poland often, missing the country where they were born. It's an interesting note, maybe I'll translate it one day and post it on PF (but that's a big "maybe", because it's freaking long lol).

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]

"Polsko! (...) Pawiem narodów byłaś i papugą"

(Poland! (...) You were the peacock and the parrot of nations)

*Juliusz Słowacki, "Grób Agamemnona", 1839

:)))

That's all I have time for right now, so I will leave you with this, see you in the evening probably :)

*Juliusz Słowacki - he was one of the Three Bards (the national poets of Polish Romantic literature)

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


I will tell you some strange thing - Russians often sound as if Russia is a different continent altogether ;D It's not "Europe", it's not "Asia" it's just Russia ;) They say "I'm going to Europe for holidays this summer" :) As if Russia wasn't in Europe at all :) And all of this despite the fact that the European part of Russia is culturally definitely European...

*shrugs*

People and their definitions and labels and points of view, huh... :)

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


I wouldn't say it's redundant, I think it reflects reality.
Of course, we could just drop the West vs Central vs the East of Europe division altogether and just call it "Europe", but I don't see anyone doing that :)


And who are we, Wulkan, according to you?

I would say we are all human beings but I guess it's too simple for people :)

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]

Texas09, as I wrote, Poles are looking up to the West, it's just I definitely haven't noticed such amount of comparisons as you have.

People are rarely doing this in real life, I mean, people I know, I talk to. It can be something like "Wow, what is she doing, she wants to be the Polish Lady Gaga or sth...?" I don't know, maybe it's because I live in a traditional, rather conservative region of Poland or something...


As I wrote, I don't think I ever heard such comparison.


Well, of course, you come from a Western country, you don't have anyone to look up to :)
And look at your own post - you just compared Texas in a way to the East of Poland/Eastern Europe :) Although it's, obviously, nothing alike, but it made me understand a bit what you are getting at.


Yup, talking to a Westerner... That's what it looks like... Thank you for showing your true colours, anyway... :)


Then I'm sorry, texas09, but I'm totally lost... For me it's JollyRomek that didn't understand anything of what I wrote.


No, I wrote that Kraków in Poland by Poles is called/is considered to be "the artistic city", "the centre of Polish culture". Which means this comparison (Paris of Poland - I repeat - of Poland, not of whatever greater entity like the North or the East of Europe or whatever) can be used when talking to foreigners, of course.

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]

Texas09, if you ever wonder what it's like for a Pole to deal with a Western foreigner then read my exchange with JollyRomek... Sometimes it's like talking to deaf people...

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]

Thank you for your permission, but we can't really do that since Lublin hasn't been for centuries the artistic and cultural centre of Poland.


It means I sighed and did this:
i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg


smh - shaking my head

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


Yes, exactly, that's what I wrote. Texas09 was writing about comparisons used by Poles, not by foreigners.
Not everything has to revolve about what foreigners think about Poland or Polish cities, you know :)


*sigh* + *facepalm*

Read my previous posts, please... *smh*


Then read with understanding next time.

EDIT.

And just in case you lost your eyesight when reading my posts earlier I'll quote it for you:



*tumbleweed rolling*

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


I'm talking about Poles, JollyRomek (especially Polish artists), who know Polish history and culture and not about foreigners who are going to Kraków to drink cheap beer... o_O

Maybe I'll quote it for you:


In Poland by Poles.
And, as I wrote, Kraków isn't called by Poles "The Paris of Poland", I just explained why, in what sense it could be compared to Paris - what logic would be there behind such comparison. *rolls eyes*

OK?


Well, not in Poland... If anything, Poles would proably call Prague and maybe Budapest in such a way, I think.

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


Of course they're nothing alike (I've been to both). I've never heard of Kraków as being referred to as "Paris of Poland". I've heard about prewar Warsaw being called "The Paris of the North" - I don't know by whom and why, though (clearly, when pre-war Warsaw existed I wasn't alive yet ;)).

It looks like it's still called like this sometimes: iconicstays.com/index.php/experiences/item/269-warsaw-paris-of-the-north

Or it's mentioned that it was called like that:

goethe.de/ins/pl/lp/prj/cit/mpc/wett/pdn/enindex.htm
the-american-interest.com/2014/12/31/central-europe-a-vanishing-idea/

"In this new vision, Warsaw was no longer the Paris of the North"

Apparently Prague is called like this too:

vancouversun.com/travel/Ports+Bows+Paris+North+worthy+cruise+extension/9959585/story.html

And a number of other cities in the world are called "Paris of the East" (including Warsaw) ;):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_of_the_East


I think you're exaggerating a bit ^_^'
Of course Poles are looking up to the West (although less so then in the past, I think), but I've heard sometimes Poles using Paris, Marilyn Monroe (about Kasia Figura, but that was looong ago ;)) and, maybe Britney Spears comparisons. But such comparisons are usually used as a point of reference, so the person you're talking to would know what you're talking about - since those people, cities are simply famous worldwide and when you'll be referring to them people will know what more or less you're talking about.

If I were to talk to a Russian person and tell them what Warsaw and Kraków are like I would compare Warsaw to Moscow and Kraków to Saint Petersburg (and anyone who knows something about Moscow and Saint Petersburg would know why).

Oh, and as for "Kraków - Paris of Poland" comparison - one could use such comparison in such sense that Kraków in Poland is considered to be "the artistic city", the city of/for artists, a city with artistic atmosphere, an old artistic and cultural centre of Poland, etc.. A bit outdated to some extent and maybe surpassed by Warsaw as far as modern art is concerned, just like Paris is by New York nowadays. But, still, artists from around the world go to Paris and Polish artists to Kraków out of nostalgia and to see "the great old art" :)

Love / Looking for a Polish love song [78]

I don't know of such old songs, maybe some folk songs? My mum sang to me "Głęboka studzienka" (deep little well) as a lullaby :), I think the lyrics were written (or maybe just recorded, I don't know) by Helena Kołaczkowska in 1959 to a folk melody:

wiersze.doktorzy.pl/studzienka.htm

One of the most famous old Polish classic love songs is "Miłość ci wszystko wybaczy" (love shall forgive you everything) with lyrics written by a poet Julian Tuwim and sang by famous Hanka Ordonówna, but, again, it's from 1933.

"To ostatnia niedziela" (this is the last sunday) is also a famous classic, but it's sad since it's about a break up:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_ostatnia_niedziela

There is a popular wartime/"military" song that could be treated as a love song, I guess - "O mój rozmarynie" (oh, my rosemary). It comes from, the times of the Polish-Soviet War (1919-1921) but it probably originated from a folk song "Koło ogródeczka woda ciekła" from as far back as the Napoleon times. Rosemary was in the folk tradition a symbol of love and fidelity. The lyrics:

tekstowo.pl/piosenka,zolnierska,o_moj_rozmarynie.html

Also, a traditional Polish-Ukrainian song "Hej sokoły" (hey, falcons), can be treated as a love song, in a way, I guess:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hej_Sokoly

There are probaly some traditional folk love songs who are as old as you would like them to be, but I'm not sure if I know any, to be honest.

If you're interested in pre-war songs then have a look here:

cafesenior.pl/polskie-piosenki-przedwojenne-czesc-1
cafesenior.pl/muzyka-polskie-piosenki-przedwojenne-czesc-2
cafesenior.pl/polskie-piosenki-przedwojenne-czesc-3

Love / Polish Pet Names For Girls. [156]

Well, bambi, what can I say... He's your boyfriend so it's not really my business.

Love / Polish Pet Names For Girls. [156]


He's calling you this way? o_O
I have hard time believing this, tbh...
If you aren't a troll and he's really addressing you like that then I would dump him ASAP, if I were you...

Suka is "b1tch", dziwka is "wh0re, slut" and szmaciara is, I don't know, I would say someone worse than blachara (blachara is "chavette").