News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


You forget East Germany and the freeze of decades behind the Iron Curtain...we all met the modern world in 1989 and found out our industries weren't competitive anymore...you can't blame the EU for that!

And China is overtaking Germany with their cheap mass production...Germany too lost alot of jobs and companies to cheap and cheaper Asia. The famous german automobile industry took heavy blows in the recent years...add to hat the phasing out of fossiles and the structural changes had already be enormous and will continue to do so...also for Germany. Our future as industrial powerhouse is in no way secured or granted!

We all have to reinvent ourselves...the EU isn't to blame for any of it, but it can help!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


....it could even be said that Poland fully integrated in the EU (also the contrary to what Spike wants) would be much more successful in building alliances, in furthering their causes...playing the diplomatic high game of back rubs (when I rub your back you will rub mine)...networking, influencing...

Meaning Poland could develop into a power player, becoming part of the "core" itself, now that Britain left a gap.

The reasons Spike wants the EU destroyed for for would vanish...Poland could make the EU work for it....but only as fully committed and smart member.

Hmmm....what an interesting conundrum! :)


Now that was a bad example....

There is deindustrialization because of the globalization (jobs and firms leave for cheaper places) and because of modernization (phasing out of coal) and happened everywhere.

Alot of EU funds go into these regions hit worst because of this "Strukturwandel" (structural change), as we Germans call it...just think about the once famous german steel and coal region, the Ruhr Area.

These regions have to rebuild itself now that their main industries are gone, that's happening everywhere.

What in the hell makes you think Poland would master these difficult changes better without the billions of EU funds???

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


What self-defense? The fight against the billions of EU funds and the access to the biggest world market with a gazillion of potential customers for polish products?

The brave resistance against the refugees Poland had been forced to take? How many by now?

And how is your alliance building with other conservative EU members coming along? You would need them anyhow after the EU is dead and gone....

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

That's why I want Poland outside of the EU structures because I firmly believe that our country can flourish in a competitive open and global market of free exchange of goods and services.

Okay....I believe you. You want the best for Poland! That's a totally worthy goal...

In the end Poles have to decide about that...not me!

But you should stop wanting to destroy the whole EU in the process...because for alot of countries the membership in the EU is the best for their nations. Wanting to destroy it for so many others only to better your own nation is sh'itty and you should not expect any sympathy for that!

Anyhow I believe the EU is to big to fail....it is in need of reforms and probably always will, but these also can only be made with the tempo the many disagreeing members allow.

Because it's NOT a dictatorial super state with a strong (german) Führer!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


No, of course not! Poland could leave and lose the whole power it gets from having the same voting power like...say...Germany or France. I very much doubt Poland would be as influential outside of the EU as inside...

And for the "suboptimal results" only Poland is responsible for them. And frankly, if you can't make it in the EU you won't make it anywhere!

But it is as even you admit...you need a union of some kind to have any form of influence. But your vision of a union is fully compatible with your own political leaning and ideas and values (and only yours) and hence is a dead birth. Also in this new union you will be forced to make compromises...and it isn't set in stone that Poland will be it's top dog either.

This new union of yours only smells of roses because it's a fantasy...the actual existing EU on the other hand is the dirty nitty real smelly thing...it won't get any better!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Poland can try to help to build this federation right now (like Germany is preferring a decentralized federation to a centralist super state).

There is no guarantee that the newly build EU will be to your tastes either! Because it's build on compromises, all (okay without the left and right extremists) political leanings need to find a common ground.

When you always stomp with your feet and threaten to leave when things don't go your way you won't be happy in any union whatsoever...

Your best course of action would be to take what you already have (a firm seat at the same table with everybody else) and try to make the EU work for you! You won't get a better chance to do that than from the inside.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Yeah....but how exactly?

In a union consisting of 27 so widely different members there will always be discussions and disagreements...but I don't see the end of it.

Maybe the end of the EURO as it is now (and the EURO has definitely serveral flaws which need a make over)....but the EURO isn't the EU and otherwise the EU is like the UEFA or the IOC or even the European Broadcasting Union (think Eurovision Song Contest)....everybody grumbles and gripes about, but being part of it is better than being out of it (even after getting zero points for all your hard work and money, heh:).

Sure there may be this country or another which will leave for one political reason or another but I really don't see the whole of the EU "end" as you seem to wish, especially as the queue of interested new members is still much longer. I might maybe believe it when I see UEFA or the IOC getting razed to the ground.

But even when that happens...countries will sit together afterwards and build another UEFA or EU, this time better than before...they will at least try!

There are really very few countries who don't need nor want unions to support each other...most of them you don't want to have in your union either!

I think that the process of erosion and deconstruction of the EU could be steered in desired direction of voluntary economic cooperation between nation states of Europe.

That's what the EU is for! :)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


I wonder how that would come to pass....

Will there be a session by the commission who all parties declare to part ways at an agreed set date??? :)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Astounding, isn't it? As nothing did more to polarize the Germans than what happened in 2015, it changed the whole country and it's political landscape.

But back then everybody really was happy with Merkel's decision? No disagreements? What was wrong with them?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


It isn't considered legal either, hence my olive branch...


Sure it was....and with hindsight Merkel had better!

But of course when the outcome is in doubt or could even be unfavourable things like parliaments or plebiscites are no longer signs of a working democracy but rather frowned upon...people could vote "wrong"!


Yes it was...she decided as she "felt" like it...alone! Heeding no advise or doubts or warnings....asking nobody....like a dictator.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Erm...maybe we can compromise on "law status unclear"?

welt.de/politik/deutschland/article168900336/Gutachten-sieht-unklare-Rechtsgrundlage-fuer-Grenzoeffnung.html

But I didn't like it so I personally see it as unlawful, as it was made in dictatorial fashion without asking the parliament!


I agree...be it PESCO or FRONTEX....all these organizations played till now a rather weak role because of a strong NATO...that changes already.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

....To the consternation of the German and EU establishments, the court made up its own mind on whether the ECB had acted lawfully under EU law, and decided it had not. ....

spiked-online.com/2020/05/08/germany-has-dealt-a-blow-to-the-eu/

Ooooh what a ruckuss that made...

But I don't think it will have real repercussions....after all the opening of the borders in 2015 wasn't lawful either and I don't see Merkel going to jail anytime soon.

News / Hundreds Protest Against Lockdown at Polish-German Border [8]

No, it won't....many of these people will lose their jobs for good...little companies will stay closed, even after the worst is over...it's a catastrophe for this developing region.

It would be nice if afterwards Poland and Germany would butt in together to help this region especially...a common fund or something...

News / Hundreds Protest Against Lockdown at Polish-German Border [8]

That's the german position on this (only in german):

berliner-zeitung.de/wirtschaft-verantwortung/warschau-prueft-lockerungen-li.82208

Just some infos....after stats from the german Chamber of Industry and Commerce (IHK) about 25.000 people are directly concerned by this border closing between Germany and Poland...commuters who live and work in both countries. This border region developed in the recent years to a "joint economic area".

Brandenburg and Saxony decided to support the commuters financially when they decide to stay on the german side of the border....there is criticism against the polish gov, it's said they "overshoot the mark"!


Till Corona we were a digital third world country....now home office and digital schooling has become a topic...maybe if the right consequences will be drawn we will now start to close the gap and invest more in such stuff...also online teaching. But right now it's not really an alternative...especially not long term and especially not for the poor families...not every kid has a computer with internet at home!

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


Then how do you explain the greed for the Euro-membership in these "poor" countries?

I tell you why, a financial union with Germany offers these countries money to the same terms as Germany!

A country like Greece could never dream of getting so easy so much money.....because investors trust Germany. They trust it's government and it's economical policies....that makes new credits cheap. Greece for itself would get fresh money only much harder and much less to much higher interests, because investors don't trust it on it's own at all.

But now, in a financial union with Germany, Greece can borrow to it's hearts content, as the investors know it's being underfunded by Germany.

Hell, before the Euro-membership Greece used still donkeys on their dusty roads! Their main export had been cheap laborers.

Greece had all the possibilites in the world to do something worthwhile with all the money it suddenly got access to...that it ended like it did you can't blame on Germany but on stupid greek governmental decisions...totally democratic of course.

Imagine Berlin balking at that, forcing better, more sound, economical decisions from Athens....can you imagine the outcry? "Nazis" would had been the very least of them!

So, what do you blame Germany for exactly?

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

You keep repeating that, but when we discuss it I can always refute your arguments, even pinpoint mistakes and plain prejudices. Still you don't change your opinion in the slightest. You won't even try to see both sides!

I guess it's not really about economical facts with you....

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

....you always do! :(

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


Well...if you think so....I thought more along these lines:


As for shipping you need to have (and to maintain) lotsa ships, which is expensive...which is more than jungling numbers on a computer in a bank! :)


...which we wouldn't and couldn't fight anymore if we had a real union! :)
(The same way rich California can't fight transfers to potatoe-land Iowa)


Well...the US didn't start out any better....the differences between the settlers had been as strong as at home....different languages, religions and cultures...there had been lots of hostilities and even wars....to grow to Americans needed lotsa time!

Even today, the Latinos and other minorities are growing and with them their cultures and languages....still....they want to be (mainly) Americans!


And you can't blame that on the Germans....which have always been loyal tourists, loving spending their holiday-money in Greece. The country would be a lot worse off without it's german tourists!

Likewise the shipping...exporting Germany has no own merchant fleet to speak of and was always a bonafide customer of the greek shipping...no rivalries here!

Btw....it's not dead...it's alive and kicking:


safety4sea.com/greece-the-leader-in-global-merchant-fleet/

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


What "service economy"? Their mainstay had been shipping, with one if not the biggest flotillas in Europe if not the world!


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_shipping

They don't have a service economy...whom would they serve? With what? Decades of bad economical decisions and a near non-existent bureaucracy led to them having barely any economy at all by now.


Oh please, not that bad old Krugman argument again!

Ever been on a real market? There you see stands besides stands and even more stands who all sell produce and fruits and what not...it's about quality and prices which gives customers the choice as it should be in a free market world. And mostly all stands earn their money!

It's not Germany's fault that Greece has been unable to come up with a say...dishwasher rivaling what Germany or Japan could put up in it's market stand. Just becauce Germany produces a dishwasher doesn't mean Greece can't do either! If it would be as good (or better) Greece would earn lotsa money, even when Germany also sells it's dishwasher!

And just think about the US...50 states in a real union....some states excell in dishwasher, some in produce...still, they have the same economical government and laws and oversight...and it works!


Is this something inborn in Southerners? Or what? Please explain, I can't follow you!

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

Update:

The european wide "Kurzarbeitergeld" project has the name: "SURE".

It is meant for Italy, Spain and all by the Corona crisis especially hard hit EU members...

spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/corona-krise-eu-kommission-plant-europaeisches-kurzarbeitermodell-a-051a513e-8a5d-4ed6-8d38-133223767c38

Knowing that now I googled for "SURE" and found that:


ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_572

Lotsa info in there...in English! :)


Now let's hope that they do so....swiftly!

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


...or as they say, the Euro was a vision by politicians...not enough economical experts. It had alot of "birth defects"!


Why not? No change of progress and betterment? Are they cursed to be like that forever?

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]



I agree with both actually! Especially if it's your own gov!

But that's not what you are talking about....you think Greece and now Italy, aren't you. And to force ANOTHER FAR AWAY COUNTRY to "prime the pump" for a foreign country is a totally different kind of fish.

You just can't just use these economical laws 1:1 in such a situation. Just one example...the greek pensioners had a higher pension than german seniors. To ask the poorer german pensioners to "prime the pump" for the richer greek pensioners is just inhuman!

To work like that...to use Blyth 1:1 the greek, italian, spanish and the german economy would need to be one...with the same economical government and oversight....we would need to be in a real union...but we don't have that!

So please leave up with your obsession about austerity concerning the EU members...we are far to different and by far not compatible enough for that!

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


No, austerity is the reason people go looking to an austere Germany or Holland for money when they are in need. A Germany throwing out the money like others wouldn't have any money to help. We would all look like the South.

Your hostility against austerity is totally misguided and not understandable for me, sorry!

I don't want to live in a union which can't hold onto it's money...


Well....the planning has quite progressed. But as I understand it it still needs to be an unanimous decision...so it's now put to the members to say "yes" or "no".

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


And it would be soothing those Germans who are dead set against these "Coronabonds"!

"Kurzarbeitergeld" is something all here know and appreciate...it makes sense and has already proven to work.

Win-Win!!! :)


It's linked to the EU-Budget....and that is huge! It would be doable....at first about 100 Billion Euros!

If VdL can pull this through she would become the european Queen, better than Merkel heh:)

There is more on that here...sadly only in German:

faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/corona-wie-leyens-plan-fuer-kurzarbeitergeld-in-der-eu-aussieht-16707458.html

taz.de/Streit-ueber-Coronabonds/!5673379/

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

Super interesting:


rte.ie/news/business/2020/0401/1127856-commission-short-time-work-scheme/

That's real helpful stuff, that "Kurzarbeitergeld" helped Germany already through the financial crisis in 2008 and is being re-instated now again too....it would work well for the poorer EU members too!

It means workers get paid even as the companies they work for have to shut down for awhile during the crisis. Meaning they keep their jobs, and the companies can start again at full power once the crisis is over. Not to mention that the people can survive this time and have enough money to keep consuming, kick start the economy immediately afterwards again.

A large scale impoverishment and unemployment is avoided!

"The European Commision has proposed a short-time work scheme today, modelled on Germany's Kurzarbeit programme, to help people keep their jobs as the coronavirus pandemic hits economies across the 27-nation bloc.

"It is intended to help Italy, Spain and all other countries that have been hard hit. And it will do so thanks to the solidarity of other member states," she said. ...."

News / A better Polish solution: aiding refugees in their home region [29]

Still?

Right now it's mainly you calling for it...

News / A better Polish solution: aiding refugees in their home region [29]

...with what army? :)

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


Well, for that we would need exactly this kind of much deeper cooperation that most members want to avoid.

There could be a common social benefits system for all, there could be a common minimum wage, common health care and the same labor rights for all etc...but that needs joint ministries, a joint bureaucracy, shared finances and most of all, a supra-national supervision...where a national government would lose the control about all this.

Those who want that are often accused of wanting a "super state" or worse....you could do something and work at home to support this kind of closer integration and then help to send politicians to Brussels who support that...

Don't blame the current EU for not working miracles! The EU can only be as good as it's members allow...


So well, that it has become the land of milk and honey for the rest of the world...it seems...

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


Ein Deutsch-Amerikaner! YAY! :)


I could agree with that...

Now let's focus on making it better...I believe Germany has learned, the whole EURO-zone has learned and Greece will use this crisis to modernize their bureaucracy and economy at last.

But of course, if there is absolutely no good-will from your side towards the EU and the EURO zone then you will probably still keep on waiting and hoping for their downfall....concentrating on their errors and flaws instead of seeing their successes. *shrugs*