Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]

There is a problem with corruption, how to measure it and then how to rank countries accordingly however the world loves a list and that's why these reports are produced but they mean nothing.

Edit


Harry can you not go a day without starting a pointless fight over nonsense.
Do you really want to drag out a you said he said pointless exchange?

What happened was..........
Instead of discussing the topic you attacked Monia saying there were "indisputable facts" I asked about them you said the E&Y report I said that was not an indisputable fact.

Now in some kind of mental madness you as usual want to start an utterly pointless row over something that didn't happen.

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]


I was replying to something that Harry said, he insisted there were indisputable facts and I asked about them.

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]


The same thing just a different process.


That is not indisputable facts

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]

No one is interested in discussing the topic. Its an important topic, we have been reassured that there are indisputable facts but no evidence has been presented.

The perception of immigrants is that Poland is corrupt from top to bottom but again no evidence has been presented. I remember the same nonsense being spoken about almost every European country I have lived in by the expat crowd.

What is the truth and how do you measure degrees of corruption?

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]

There is a debate at the moment about the suitability and effectiveness of large accountancy firms auditing banks especially when there is a conflict of interests. All the so called big 4 have form here.

Transparency international measures perceptions it doesn't measure actual corruption that's impossible.

The UK for example supports the existence of "tax havens" (for the sake of argument defined as places that don't allow inspection) or use national security as reasons to block investigations. The wide scale problems with government contracts running over budget or the use of secret tendering allows for corrupt practices hidden due to reasons of commercial sensitivity. There is very little transparency in much of the business world for a reason and that has nothing to do with commercial sensitivity.

Without transparency it's impossible to say what is happening. Of course auditors often claim that they were just as much in the dark as the public. White collar crime needs to be treated in the same way as other crime bent auditors need to be jailed. If I were sanction busting for Iran and laundering Drug money I would be jailed not made a government minister.

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]

The indisputable fact that Paris is the capital of France...................one thing has nothing to do with the other.

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]


The same accounting firms that were charged with auditing the banks yet failed miserably.

In at least one case they (KPMG) failed to pick up a bank (HBOS) working for Mexican drug cartels, terrorists and Iran. The former chairman of this corrupt bank is now a British government minister but that is not in the E and Y survey.

When these firms, including E&Y, explain their massive failure to audit the Banks properly then they can begin to recover from their dubious reputation.

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]

The "revolving door" is a problem in all market economies

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]


There is a tiny problem with the UK ministerial code of conduct it seems to allow money laundering for Drug cartels, terrorists and states like Iran.

Life / Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland? [152]

Very little, older EU countries have difficulty preventing corruption some governments play an active role in hiding corruption and preventing investigations into it, the best you can hope for is that it becomes hidden from public view.

On a side note, I wouldn't place too much faith in Ernst and Young's auditing abilities especially when it comes to reputable business practices. This company were not too exhaustive when auditing Banks.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Zimmy your entire post is an emotional reaction. The example you provide is one of many stories that are magnified by those pushing their own particular political viewpoint ie an emotional response. In Britain there are a lot of stories about the EU banning bananas with a curve or classifying carrots as a fruit because the publications don't like the EU, the same is true of your conspiracy site.


Its not for me to give specifics here, the gun lobby always suggest fighting tyranny as a reason to flood the community with weapons (80-90 weapons per 100 residents in the US), you said you would fight tyranny and I simply asked how would you do that. Since I asked that question you have avoided answering.

Reducing the number of guns in the community reduces the chances of someone being shot. It's not difficult to understand.


These weapons are not being smuggled into the US it's a home grown problem that gun owners refuse to acknowledge. Their addiction to weapons directly contributes to arming these criminals. Another aspect often overlooked is the potential for the good gun owner to turn bad but that is not what you were asking.

The situation in the US is so screwed up that any measures designed to restrict sales both (private and commercial) and keep guns in cabinets etc will reduce the total numbers being pumped into the community. This will inevitably reduce the amount available on the black market.

Can you provide stats for your mass shootings claim then we can discuss it. If true is cherry picking favourable stats the way forward?

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Not true Zimmy As I said above the murder rate (all murders) in almost all countries in Europe is much lower than the murder rate in the US. Murders by gun are much lower. Those stats make your quote


even more ridiculous I pointed that out in my last post which you missed.

Pumping guns into the community, having targets drawn on maps and such only succeeds in upping the ante, people expect everyone to be armed. For every story about some gun nut shooting a burglar I can find a story of someone being shot for ringing a door bell. The only hypocrisy is the desperate attempt of the gun crowd to justify forcing their hobby and associated carnage on the rest of society. Europe doesn't want that, Europeans don't need a gun to feel safe.

Zimmy you expect me to give specific answers to solve the gun problems the US has but refused to answer how you would fight tyranny even denying that the question was asked

It's not my job to solve your problems I do however support attempts to reduce mass shootings. The overwhelming majority of such shootings are carried out using legal weapons by the gun nut crowd which makes your initial point redundant. It's the same as saying that no law is needed because some people will ignore it

More guns mean more gun deaths.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Indeed I did and I stand by that, there are no bills or proposed bills before congress that talk about disarming Americans. Many people have opinions but there are no plans to ban guns to suggest so is more than a distortion of reality its dishonest no matter how much you would like them to do so. There is no slippery slope that's just hysteria.


The murder rate in Europe is much lower than the US, Gun deaths are much lower in Europe. The countries that you mentioned have very strict gun laws resulting in fewer gun deaths. European countries with liberal gun laws have more gun deaths just like the US.


Do I really have to?


Prosecutions are for transgressions ie breaking the law


As private individuals they don't, perhaps you would like their business dealings opened to public inspection


Its not, all it does is pump guns into the community upping the ante


The laws being discussed in the US are targeted at mass shootings and attempting to make them less likely. There are almost no other gun laws of any note.


That's just nonsense from someone in favour of private bureaucrat yet enjoys the benefits of government protection.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

Zimmy you found someone with an opinion you disagree with, someone who thinks its better to ban all guns. I'm sure there are a few other senators who agree with her just as there are several pro gun nut senators, that's how democracy works. The reality is that guns are not going to be outlawed in the US, no one is proposing to ban guns despite the hysterical formulaic claims.


That's a sad little whine full of nonsense, any semi sentient being can see the lies and distortion for what they are.

The reality is that the death rate due to guns in Europe is lower than the death rate in the US. That's the fact that you cannot ignore Everyone in Europe knows this and no one except a few nuts want to adopt the crazy system they have in the US.

I'll gladly debate your false claims (illustrated above) over health care in the appropriate thread.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


That is a lie, the legislation states


If rich people want to buy health insurance they can as I pointed out above private health care has not been abolished.

No one is talking about disarming Americans, some sensible measures to try and reduce the carnage are being proposed. The usual suspects are opposed to reducing the gun death rate to at least Polish levels.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


That is a lie

The reality is that those people already have a public funded health care package. Obama has not outlawed private health insurance, rich people and corporations can continue to buy health care.

Those against a universal health care system are the hypocrites, health care for all provided they are rich....

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


It is true that the history of gun control laws is racist the first such laws were passed 1n 1831 after a slave revolt and this continues till today. It was easy to get racist laws passed in the US as there is a fear of the Black and the foreign born.

Now for a modern eg


Everyone else sees this as American on American gun murders.

I just wish the US could get rid of the black/white thing or the creeping anti Latino thing, more developed countries see this subject as a public safety issue rather than a race issue

The facts are that more guns equals more gun deaths. Pump a place full of guns and you get more mass shootings, accidental shootings and every other type of shooting.

Placing restrictions for all is the best way to go about reducing the appalling shooting record the US has.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


They are responses to Zimmy quoting three people. Each was a slave owner, they rebelled and were employed by governments. Everything I said is factual and common knowledge for the average person. I can provide fully referenced articles for each fact you disagree with.

There in nothing inflammatory in anything I said. Do you not see the hypocrisy? When talking about personal freedom, the right to self defence and human rights in general that the last people you should be quoting are slave owners. Remember it wasn't me who introduced them into the debate.

Yet again your reading comprehension has failed you, I have not made a blanket statement about the US just 3 individuals one of whom (Paine) supported the French terror. You may describe Poland anyway you like so long as its factual, are you sure you would like to make a sweeping statement about Polish people?

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Zim a youtube video?

Youtube, Ads for books and some slave owner quotes (hypocritically) about freedom.

Please tell me that your standard of debate is higher than that.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


I have not made any claim that requires supporting evidence.

I asked a few questions and pointed to the disparity in gun deaths between the US and Europe. You refuse to answer simple questions preferring instead to beat the same old drum with your one second hand argument.

You have a general inability to debate a point or understand the purpose and use of supporting evidence.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


This is how supporting links work.......
You make a statement then you provide supporting evidence for that statement, posting a random ad does neither of those things.
If you would like to copy his argument do so then we can discuss.

It's as I said above Zim you just copy /paste random nonsense.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


To question the bare faced cheek it takes to quote slave owning government apparatchiks who wrote about freedom and the dangers of government is not dishonest, highlighting hypocrisy is not deceitful.

Think about it for a moment....slave owners writing about freedom, writing about all men created equal.
Are you going to quote from Herod's radical child care regime?

It's logical to form an argument that holds water not chant the mantra of hollow threats in some paranoid world of crap conspiracy theories.


Well isn't that a surprise.......


From your link


It would be great if you copy/pasted some of this persons arguments zim then there would be something to debate. You have just posted an ad for a book, a totally random link, less useful than a link to an online pizza shop.

You haven't really got the hang of supporting evidence yet zim

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


You have indeed, the problem is that you have no argument to defend your position. Posting a bunch of quotes from the slave owners about tyranny does not make an argument. You have to form a reasoned logical position, the nonsense about fighting a tyrannical government is a case in point. It's an empty slogan and hollow threat for a situation that will not arise. There is no logical stance possible for holding that point of view except to impress equally deluded folk.


Its not that I dislike references, I dislike random quotes peppering a post without any coherent narrative. If you make a point its good to have some sort of evidence to support that point for example peer reviewed journals. A link to a blog site is not supporting evidence but the opinion of some one else.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

Zim your favourite topic is you which is not surprising given your inability to debate any point.

On this thread you have made sweeping Yoda like announcements, refused to answer questions pretending they were not asked, posted a few pointless quotes by some slave owners and start personal attacks.

That is pretty much standard practice for your good self, perhaps you will soon stumble across an exotic site that tells you how to think, something like the misogynist sites, the climate change denial sites and the birther sites the list of nonsense that you have spewed here is seemingly endless......


Well there must be something seriously screwed up about the US if your permanent self medicating forces you to arm yourselves. Or is it that Europe has a similar drug problem but fewer guns and is safer as a result?

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Boasting Zimmy, boasting that you have bettered me or others in debate. You must be the only self proclaimed alpha male that needs to boast. Zim you have never bettered any one on this site in debate as you don't have an original idea but you can cut and paste.

You inhabit a world of crank sites often posting links to them here. One of the sites you linked to claimed that Canada was governed by an Acorn worshiping cult (I thought it was the pineapple crowd but they are bat **** crazy not like the acorn people) when I challenged you on this you claimed that there was good info on those sites.

Yes Europeans are safe compared to those in the US.


When the psychos are no longer reported as quiet unassuming people who would never hurt a fly followed by the phrase who would have guessed they were capable of that.....perhaps I'll change my mind.

Zim the long and short is that your crazy world view has been rejected by Europe it has been rejected by the majority of the people in the US and every other place it has been tested.

Europe is not going to adopt a crazy cowboy myth of gunslingers and lone heroes.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


There is no call for widespread gun ownership and associated slaughter in Europe.

The laws we have are just fine that's why Europeans are safe. If the laws are to be relaxed to allow people access to guns who don't really need them major restrictions will still be in place to ensure public safety.

There is no cowboy myth in Europe guiding social and political policy but primarily used to sell stuff....


Source. Its a good read
guardian/books/2013/mar/20/myth-of-the-cowboy?INTCMP=SRCH

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


There you go again Zim that is several times in the one thread, if you cannot debate the point don't bother. I suppose when you have nothing to copy/paste all you are left with is personal attacks so I will yet again have to forgive you ........

If your comprehension was up to the mark you would realise that my response above was a direct counter to your boast that you are great etc. I'll make it clear to you, Zimmy you never have an argument that has not been passed to you by an other person. You cut and paste from conspiracy sites, my personal favourite was the site that claimed Canada was governed by a giant pineapple. You are going to have to up your game considerably before you will be taken seriously.

The constitution of the US has nothing to do with Poland its irrelevant here. This thread is about whether Poland should relax its gun laws. The short answer is that no it should not, if you need a gun in Poland as in much of Europe you get one.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


This is circular, we are back to who makes the decision that the government is tyrannical and is that self appointed cabal tyrannical? If only there were some way to test public opinion.

There are "shooting people" decisions to be made even if everyone is armed when you decide to reject the ballot box and go down the road of rebellion.


Not really, defending your home in a fundamentally unequal and artificially created political entity is a matter of survival. More guns means more guns on both sides which means more death. Having weapons would not solve the base problem.


The fantasy is that the talk of fighting tyranny has zero perspective of how and what it would look like. If everyone had weapons the result is the same though with more death.

This goes for fighting any government Communist, Fascist and so on. The Stalin and Hitler stuff is just nonsense.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Your own view of history is not factual.

Name one successful rebellion that did not rely upon outside help.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Zim, you only post links to dubious conspiracy sites to support your brainwashed corporate shill "arguments", don't be making this all about you and your deluded fantasy. Just try to address the issue instead of cutting and pasting quotes that have nothing to do with the topic.

It's crystal clear that you cannot explain how you expect a lightly armed bunch of people to defeat an army, its not going to happen it is just pub talk, neither of the things in that scenario are going to happen.