History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


I think I have explained thoroughly enough what I meant by that in later posts in this thread. And in fact I have added more to the thread than your "yeah, but you said...". I have shown you why the picture was distorted, but apparently that wasn't enough for you as it didn't fit your picture. In fact it didn't fit in the picture of most contributors. History is unfair, we all know that. Nobody is denying the Polish suffering, but it should be put in perspective. The Poles suffered tremendously, yes, but they were not the only ones who did and I am just pointing that out. Sorry if it doesn't fit your or Jola's pre-decided opinion, but so be it. You have anything to add to the discussion besides stating the fact that I am "being inconsistent"?


Every small ally got betrayed in some form after the war. You wouldn't want to know how much protests there were against the overpowering and overall role the US played in the Western world. If you think that we were all just lapdogs who barked at any of the US's wish, I think you should think again. PL is in her quest to seek vengeance for the betrayal of certain elements of the West so vigorously that it overlooks the many (smaller) countries that have always sympathised with her and have indeed, be it on a small scale, helped her in times of need. It may have been small, but at least it was sth. Never forget that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


You do realise this film was made at the height of the Cold War? Any country from the Eastern Bloc was an enemy for the Americans back then. And since they are Americans, they don't have a clue of how it was divided into seperate countries. To them everything was Soviet Union and Soviet Union = bad. Americans are stupid, that is why.

I've seen so many movies portraying anything that was from behind the Iron Curtain as bad and evil, evil Czechoslovakian psychopaths, Bulgarian murderers, Russian murderers, Hungarian campguards; and all of them want to -of course- seize world domination. Just take the James Bond movies: before 1990 they were all fighting some Eastern European (super-) villain.

You seem to forget that the Cold War, even without any actual direct fighting, was indeed a war and the Soviets + allies were the enemy. Lots of Hollywood movies were meant as propaganda and it didn't matter what country from the Eastern Bloc you took, just pick one. And since PL was "renowned" for the KZ's on his soil, the connection is quickly made for easy success.

Bidupski talks about a poll held among Americans about the popularity of the SU which produced a staggering 72-4 per cent outcome in favour of the Russians and points this out as being a Leftist means of justification. What he forgets is that by then public opinion in the US was already on the Allied side and the American public felt for all those small countries that were invaded and occupied by Nazi Germany. Like Sweden and Switzerland, they were neutral, but not really neutral. Nazi Germany was the big enemy and any country who fought the enemy was a friend. SU war efforts relieved the West for a great deal and helped substantially to defeat Nazi Germany, the main aim at the time. To have PL endanger that was sth they could not afford as PL was a small fish in the pond and although a number of Polish soldiers had fled to the West and continued fighting for the Allied cause, their effort was not as substantial as the SU effort. Poland was a minor country on the fringe of things which happened to have the bad luck to be as well the ground on which factoriers of death were and after the war were part of an enemy state-system. Americans think black and white.


At least I make money :) And besides, I can always get my PhD after I retire. And pls don't pretend you're so smart, child, as far as I'm concerned you're just a reactionary twat that likes to view things from only one perspective. And better to know bits of everything unimportant and a lot about really important stuff than to know a lot about unimportant stuff and to cry about "aw, look at those evil Americans, they're only putting us in a bad daylight". Which is not even fully true, they did it with ALL Eastern Bloc countries. Only the other countries don't whine as much about it as the Poles do.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

I'm gonna get back on that tomorrow as now I'm going to sleep. But in the meantime I would suggest you read up on the history of Israël between 1945 and it's declaration of independence in 1948. I would suggest you read about the treatment of the Jews by the British (Cyprus and all) and about the guerilla warfare held by the Jews against the British during that time and you will find that Britain had little love for the Jews. Also, the US might have contributing to this, but it did merely out of a guilty conscience as before the war they refused a substantial amount of Jewish refugees trying to flee Germany. But I will get back on that tomorrow. Now I will hit the sack. Good Night.

>^..^<

M-G (tired)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


So do I. But Wikipedia is of course biased as hell and doesn't tell the truth. But given the responses here one can conclude that it must be all the Jews' own fault what happened to them, at least according to the Polish participants.

I guess it's all part of the coming of age for Poland. Accepting own mistakes is part of the process. Every country has to go through it, everywhere in the world.

The funniest remark I found here, besides being insulted constantly for having my own opinion is that I act like a Commie. To me indeed everyone is equal, so in that sense yes, one could call me a Communist. If it is Communist to point out mistakes that happened, well then, the maker of the remark should review the definition of a Communist.

Another thing I learned once again that apparently it's ok for Poles to critise other countries, but not ok when other ppl critise Poland. Guess Anita was right.

>^..^<

M-G (that was actually the first time somebody called me a sexist. Remarkably, when it's coming from sb who kisses arse such many bloody times)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


You know what? Why don't you cook us all a nice warm dinner and spare us of your anti-me related irrelevant posts. At least you will be doing sth useful instead of giving nonsensical comments just to show how much you hate me thereby disqualifying yourself. And I don't give a shyte if you hate me or not, so it's useless anyway. You're just not important enough.


A quick and consise insight of the background of the anti-Jewish violence in Postwar PL:


/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944-1946

So we can safely assume that it was most rumors that sparked incidents. Oh and by the way: I am not a Communist.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Hm, and you are sure it's not because of the ongoing violence against Jews? Not necessarily violence because of their ethnicity, but for several reasons, political just being one of them and most of them based on false rumours, remnants of pre-war anti semitism and the like? Several historians have placed the number of Jewish death due to violence against them somewhere between 1000 and 1500 between the liberation and 1947. With so much violence against them (and right after the terrible human losses of WW2 1000 to 1500 might not seem such a big deal, but with about 100.000 Jews surviving the Holocaust it's still 10 per cent - a big number), isn't it surprising that Jews concluded that there was no future for them in PL? Couldn't that have been more reason to leave PL than bad memories? If it were only for the memories, they would not have come back in the first place. This was the land they grew up in, this was just as much their home as it was to the ppl who committed violence against them.

Edit: and what's this idiocy about that ridiculous believe that Jews use christian babies for ritual murders? Are ppl really so stupid to believe that?

>^..^<

M-G (and with those numbers confirmed by many historians, one cannot simply talk about incidents anymore; the number's too high for that)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


If there wasn't such a big mistrust and if PL was a Jewish paradise, why then did so many Jews leave PL in the years immediately after WW2 as I have showed you?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Life / Anything like netflix in Poland? [27]


Still bickering over the fact that you lost the discussion? Must be tough on you, but stop whining about it, my child, it happens.

There is Lidl in Poland too and since Lidl has this movie club in at least a few countries, chances are that they have that in PL too.

>^..^<

M-G (at least I am trying to help)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


From same link as above. If Jews were such prominent members in all the decision-making roles, why then did this happen?


So did I, but the tendency is to call it all lies if it doesn't fit the popular image. Indeed, it just doesn't seem logical based on absolute numbers and given the mistrust of Jews already present in PL in the years 1944-1946.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Of course it is easier to blame some other group than to have to take responsibility for one's own deeds.


Terrorism? I just read one of your bystanders state that quite a few ppl joined the club as it was profitable for them. And it sheds a different light on the ever so pronounced "heroism" of the Poles as being glorified so many times on this forum.

I appreciate that it was a tough time and I am not diminishing any terror, but I just don't think it was the Jews responsible for this. I understand the psyche of blaming the Jews for it, but it just doesn't make any sense. A very small group within a much bigger group can be silenced all too easily from within and IF the Jews terrorized everybody and everything so much, why then did the vast majority of Polish members of the CP nothing about it? Or could it be that they agreed to it? But I don't think it was the Jews who terrorized as much as it was the entire CP who did it. Jews and non-Jews included.


This still doesn't explain the massive Polish participation in things.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Ok, now that we have established that, do you realise that this is in total contradiction of the things you stated earlier? If the Poles were so mordicus against the CP, why then would they join? If they are such a proud country then nobody would want to have to do anything with a hated institution? Would joining them not be the same as high treason against your country?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

Let's assume the number 3.5 mln is correct. Of that number there were 3 per cent at the most, Jewish. With a population of give or take 35 miln, that makes 10 per cent member of the PL CP. Of that 10 per cent a fraction is Jewish. And that fraction would be able to terrorize a vastly bigger group of unwilling? Even if they had all the guns in the world, they still wouldn't be able to make it for any longer than a week or so, let alone for decades. It just doesn't make sense at all. But then again, most myths don't make sense. Guess ridding herself of myths like this is part of the coming of age for PL. Other countries had it too, PL will follow suit.

>^..^<

M-G (next)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Not only that, Bratwurst, but also with 3.5 mln members in the Polish CP, and with about 100-120 k Jews already having left before 1948 that would leave about 100 K of Jews still present in PL. That's about 3 per cent Jewish at the time. And 3 per cent was determining what happened with the remaining 97 per cent? Don't think so.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jews_in_Poland#Communist_rule:_1945.E2.80.9389


Such a smart girl and she doesn't know what an Ossi is.


You brought in the Commies, so now it's suddenly off topic? The whole Commie thing was off topic to start with.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens, tiens)

Life / Anything like netflix in Poland? [27]

Try LidlMovies. It's the same idea as Netflix, but I don't know if they have it in PL yet. But you can always try. Think it costs about 6 or 7 Euros a month - don't know how much that is in Zlotys though.

You're welcome.

>^..^<

M-G (always glad to help)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


No, you came up with the implants from outter Russia. You tell me what they were. And what it means to be a Jew? To me it means nothing in particular. It just means that I am a human who needs to eat, drink, pee and shyt just like everybody else. And the funny thing is, I get along with loads of ppl from all over the world and that includes loads of Poles as here in Dublin you hardly can get around Poles anyway, they're everywhere. I have a lot of Polish friends, yes.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Life / Anything like netflix in Poland? [27]

I think he means the DVD rental service, not the TV online...

Or did he?

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Yeah, and we in NL had Americans flown in to help us against the Commies.


So what were they? Jews, Russians, Jewish implants from Russia, Martians cloned by the Soviets? What?


Enjoy! You deserve it :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


That's because it means they have to face the fact that they are not only victims, a moniker they have adopted over the times. They suddenly have to take responsibility for their own deeds and that causes some friction and resistance. Suddenly it's not only the heroic Pole fighting against the world anymore, but also the Pole killing his fellow countrymen and that's a bit tough to swallow, but it's nothing that cannot be done. NL faced a similar issue when it turned out to be that not all the Dutch were such good ppl, but we managed to get over it. It can be done, it just takes some time.

>^..^<

M-G (Bratwurst has earned some salmon with horseradich and mintsauce - yummie)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


I never said that Poles didn't help Jews. Don't put words in my mouth. Not all Poles that were killed were killed in relation to helping Jews.


It happened in Lybia, but the 103 were mainly Dutch with a few dozens of other Westerners.

>^..^<

M-G (guess you still don't grasp it)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Oh now it's the Slavs as a conglomerate? I thought this was only about the Poles? And yes, there are vastly more Russian victims than Jewish victims, I already stated that, but there are quite more Jewish victims than Polish victims. Simple as that. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

If everybody is so convinced that the Nazis were more after the Poles than they were after the Jews, then explain to me why they didn't kill much more Poles than Jews? They had to get the Jews from everywhere in Europe by trains to the deathcamps while they had the Poles on a serving platter, sitting there. Yet more Jews than Poles were killed. If they were out to kill all the Poles, why didn't they do so? Why didn't they go enter all the villages and cities and just shoot everybody there? Would only take a year or so and would be much easier than to find all the Jews in every corner of Europe to bring them all the way to PL and gass them there.

>^..^<

M-G (seems logic)


In your own cruel way you're actually right. And vice versa the Poles don't care about what happens in other parts of the world, like no-one cared about an airplane crashing down and killing 103 ppl today. Yet they complain about the lack of interest, while nobody else complain about the lack of interest Poles show in other parts of the world.

>^..^<

M-G (fact)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Here we go again. Blaming the bashing of Jews on the Jews themselves. The truth? You cannot handle the truth, to quote a famous movie, and the truth is much more nasty for the likes of you than you will ever admit to. Instead, keep on bashing on the Jews, because that's probably the only at which you're good at.

Oh and btw, two things: Communist Poland and the alledged role the Jews were to have played in it is irrelevant for the topic of this thread and secondly, the Holocaust did not involve soldiers in active duty that were killed in the battlefield. Apparently you do include them as 55 million is grossly 9 times the 6 million Jews that perished. And furthermore, you seem to conveniently forget that those numbers are a combination of all faiths put together from all nations involved in the conflict. That is an irrelevant calculation as no single ppl suffered as much as the Jews did, with the exception of the Soviet Union.


Whatever. You know, for somebody who claims to be scientific you're pretty much set in your ways. If you want to compare a couple of thousand Jews that just by coincidence got a chance for survival with millions of Poles who got that chance then you really don't get the quintessence of the discussion, do you? And besides all that, you seem to forget that these chances were not directed from upper Nazi ranks, in fact, the provider could be killed because of giving them a chance, whereas upper Nazis gave the Poles a chance by simply telling them to stay away from the Jews and nothing would happen to them. But I guess you're not smart enough to grasp that concept.

>^..^<

M-G (now back to your cage)

Life / Are foreigners welcome in Poland? [267]


I'm not thinking you want to scare me, I am thinking you're a depraved racist.

>^..^<

M-G (bah)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Ehm, that would be a no. In the Netherlands things like that are not an issue.


I am only following the Polish reasoning. Before long I have argued that Polish Jews were in fact Polish citizens. But then a few Poles popped up (can't remember if you were among them, but heck) and said that they were not Polish citizens. So there you have it.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


You just don't like Israël, do you? Otherwise you would not have entered this argument into the discussion as it has nothing to do with the subject as such. I will therefore disregard it.

So Hollywood has to popularize the mass murder of Poles? I still believe you don't understand the topic as such. I tried a few times to make it clear, but you're kinda set in your ways, so there is no point in explaining you any further that the way you're thinking is wrong and that the Polish victims already sufficiently have been dealt with in the Wiki page concering the Holocaust.


This prove my previous remark. YES, the Jews had it the worst of all the victims. I'm sorry if you cannot imagine that, but it is true. They had no other choice than to die, to die and again to die. Poles had a choice and many took that choice. Jews didn't have that choice.


It already does and there is no need for you to punch ppls noses onto it once more.


Now you listen to me, and you listen well, son. NOBODY has forgotten the plight of the Poles. And if you want to know why it's not as often mentioned as the Jews' fate, I would suggest you read all of my previous posts as I have explained thoroughly why that is.

One extra million of Jews, yeah, it's going off the big pile anyway, isn't it? 6 million Jews, of which there were 3 million living in Poland, not being recognized by many Poles as Polish citizens, should not be counted as Poles. Take 3 million off the 5 million Poles and that leaves you with 2 million Poles that have perished, if I were to make the same distinction as the Poles themselves do. Still a huge number, but it's just 1/3 of the number of Jews that died. So, 4 million extra dead Jews would be a more correct statement. And if a ppl wants to prevent Arabs from doing the same all over again (and we know that the Arabs would do so if they got the chance, given several testemonies) it's understandable that the Israeli want to prevent that.

But pls, try to read my previous posts and pls do try to understand them. If you don't, it's ok, just ask. I'd be happy to explain and expand a bit further if you need.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Life / Anything like netflix in Poland? [27]

Well, I know that Lidl has recently started sth like Netflix in Ireland. Might well be that they started it in Poland too. Go check it out.

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

Bratwurst, it's no use. He will do this over and over again. Poland did nothing wrong and when sth bad happened like failing to catch a war criminal, it's the Jews, not the Poles themselves. And even if you get him to admit that Poles did sth wrong, it's either very minor or they were forced to do so by the Jews, the Commies or the Madhatter's convention. By now you should know how he is.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Actually nothing. You were talking about female sadist leading the kids' camp within the Lodz ghetto and since I only knew that name besides Karl Ehrlich's name in connection to these ghettos I was just wondering whether you meant her.

But what it tells me beside this is that the officials were kinda sloppy finding her after the war.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Interesting indeed. >^..^<

M-G (tiens)