The Warsaw Uprising memory. To remember who you are.

Yeah,Bratwurst nails it.
Iron, you need to think this through.

...and so well. The new BB I like.

What do you mean? karma is karma, not that I believe it or understand it really.
You just argue what genocide and what not, at who is a greater victim who is a greater preparator.. look it is all basically very simple

genocide is just any mass murder committed on civilians as well as POWs, the only difference between a genocide and other kinds of murder is - scale...

All those wise peoples and their definitions out there are basically about politicks, a dominat historical narrative and power. Those in power in charge of the historical narrative write and adjust those definitions as they like...

Have you Heard about so called Armenian Genocide? Took them lot of time and effort to lobby in the USA to have it recognized it as a genocide.

Here is catch:
If you ask me about my take on Germans and ethic cleansing after the war here it is - it wasn't a genocide. There is a concept of just and unjust war.

Unjust war means aggression and a just war is a self-defence - roughly speaking.
It means that Germans as those who waged an unjust war even if they suffered in consequence of it, do not get to claim a victim status.

I would think that is clear?

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Katyn was not genocide. Auschwitz was genocide. BB is correct. The officers who were murdered in Katyn were murdered not because they were Poles, white, or Christians, They were murdered because the Soviets saw them as their future enemies. That's why the Soviets DID NOT murder Polish farmers, coal miners, plumbers, and gravediggers. Only the officers.

Do I smell a double standard here?

Do you smell a double standard here? How would anyone know what you smell?

but those officers were their enemies. i dont see why they wouldn't kill them even if they were Russians like the kulak class or Ukrainian farmers with the famine. you dont see those guys making such a big deal or being such russophiles as poles do you and they suffered way higher losses.

Are you saying my mother was guilty?

Following that thought one could say the Jews deserved the Holocaust because of what jewish communists and jewish bankers allegedly did.....

Nothing is clear!

And no, it isn't only the scale, it's the INTENT what counts....

There are people who believe in collective guilt and those who don't.

I personally don't.

Most politics in this part of the world are built around the idea of collective guilt.

do you not follow? I'm not saying she was guilty of something. I'm not even touching all Nazis 'antics'... laws or whatnot ..from a moral point of view her people were guilty of an unjust war (even if it seemed justified in their eyes) it means that all the nasty consequences of them loosing it are on them, so if there are somebody to blame, her people are to blame for suffering or loss she exprinced...in that way she was a victim of her own people hence cannot claim a victim status in the context as that would require putting blame on the others which would be hypocritical.. in that case or in a case of any unjust war...

I would sue if I were in her shoes all those 'war heroes' who were doing very well in the post war Germany/// Like party members and so on...


Yes a good point an intent and a scale.
I would say from a moral point of view because from a legal one is all BS anyways. One need to have a power to enforce it and if one has that power it usually pair with a political convenience.


Oh and you are so much better, geez!

...so true!

Whatever other flaws I may have (and there are.... a lot) I try to minimize collective considerations, it's a big part of traditional American values (an ideal that many fail to live up to).

To paraphrase MLK jr.: "I have a dream that little children will one day live in a Europe where they will not be judged not by the deeds and misdeeds of their ancestors but by the content of their character."

If Katyn was genocide, so were Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki - except a lot worse. The US and the Brits killed EVERYBODY indiscriminately.

Katyn was selective. No kids and women there.

Indiscriminant "carpet bombing" remains incomparable with the most relentless, discriminant murder of Jews along with Roma in the Holocaust The only difference was that the Jews of Germany and Austria, including Hungary, was solely the degree of assimilation among the Jews. Furthermore, mass deportations or depopulation of entire communities are the salient features of actual genocide.

You all know what?

We are all survivors here....we can only here talk with each other (and insult each other) because our families somehow made it through!

Okay...the end of the Cold War and the discovery of the Internet might have something to do with that too....but that would mean nothing if our own parents/grandparents hadn't proven to be stronger or smarter or luckier than many others and survived....

*takes helmet and bows out*

In closing: the Warsaw Uprising was a monumental blunder that accomplished nothing but did manage to kill 200,000 Poles and destroy the city.
It proved that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not always true and that men under 25 should never be allowed anywhere near guns.

An uprising, incidentally, quashed by General Juergen Stroop in '44!

No you moron it wasn't, the whole Polish politicks before the WWII and somewhat during the war wasn't rational. Thing is even if it was Poland wouldn't have fared much better at the end.

Given the geopolitical vectors here that part of the world would have been dominated by the Soviets or the Germans..
So in the end it would be much of an happy ending for Poland either way.
Those who claim otherwise are somewhat delusional.
Due to irrational policy makers somewhat Poland ended without siding with the evil forces on one or the other side. That has it price - being chewed up by both.

Well pro-Soviet Rich probably wishes that Poland had become a Soviet republic.... he'd never have left then... (if you believe his story, which.....)

The uprising (based on knowledge of the time) was a desperate and risky endeavor that didn't pay off but the ultimate fate of Warsaw or Poland wouldn't have been too different had it never happened the Nazi army was going to kill and destroy no matter what.

However, if the Germans had won, Warsaw, as with the rest of Europe, would have become Nazi satellites anyway, so the question is academic.

Yes, you moron, because you can't name one positive outcome from that "heroic" bs.


Who the hell is talking about Germans winning? The war was lost at Stalingrad. The rest was just a very bloody way of delivering this memo to Berlin.

The subject here and now is the Warsaw Uprising - the cost and the benefits.


The events elsewhere do not allow you to make this assumption. Germans treated Warsaw and the people there differently than in other Polish cities in revenge for the Warsaw Uprising, and not for any other reason. See Radom.


I refuse to operate at the end of emotional scale and I am for dispassionate and objective truth - a blasphemy to Poles when patriotism and dying za ojczyzne - their favorite way of departing - are the subjects.

I have no reason to hate the Soviets but a good reason to appreciate the price they paid just while LIBERATING Poland alone. They could have stopped short, say fu*ck it, and renew the R-M pact to save possibly millions of their troops.

Yes, I said "liberating" and don't give a crap how many here will be angry. When I see Germans on Monday, and on Tuesday I see them dead or gone, the gates of Auschwitz open, and trains no longer delivering the walking dead, that's liberation.

Indeed.
He is just cry become without Warsaw uprising Soviet Army would have advanced much further west than it did..


You know very little on the subject so stop spewing your crap.

Where were you on the day the Soviets liberated Radom?


So 200,000 Poles and the city died to delay them?

True.... sitting on their asses and preventing anyone else from helping took up valuable time.... think how much further west the Iron Curtain would have fallen... Amsterdam? The People's Republic of France?

I thought and concluded that it was at Yalta where the Iron Curtain location was decided and that the Warsaw Uprising had nothing to do with it. In fact, it is very possible that the Soviets were working to a known timeline and being assured the contain final location, took their sweet time by Warsaw to rest and to watch Poles bleed themselves to death.

To move that curtain to Paris, the Soviets would have to make a very convincing speech to the Americans. Hopefully in English to remove any doubt.

Hey, maf, I always think about you as one of the more reasonable posters here so I was surprised and disappointed to read your last post.

I know that desperation to justify the unjustifiable makes people say strange things. I just didn't expect it from you.

I disagree.The Russians only wanted Slav lands and took East Germany as a buffer zone.


That's rubbish.


Me neither.

Precisely. They already had their proxies in the West to do their dirty work for them. Just like in Poland.

youtu.be/qabP8-px-zE

youtu.be/RgvurL1Up2A

I have posted these videos to remember the Russians and other Soviets who died liberating Poland.

Why don't you move where you belong some Russian or Soviet forum..?


You know nothing, You are even unable to follow what is being said..
You Sad Soviet stooge..

You are redundunt. "Know nothing" includes everything so you don't need to itemize.
I apologize for lying. Actually, it was AK, their artillery, tanks, and bombs that liberated Poland. Their bravery was unmatched - all the way to Berlin.

The Russians were just sitting there and playing cards.


Your reaction to my Post 178 revealed again what you are.
My post was about the respect we owe those Russians who died liberating Poland. They were innocent of the crimes by Stalin and NKVD. Yet, in your usual lowlife crudeness, you managed to make it ugly and personal.