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Why is Vatican traditionally on German and not on Polish side?


Lyzko 29 | 7,240
10 Feb 2020 #31
The only Pope to date who truly built bridges between Christians and Jews in a substantive way, was Wojtyla!
During WWII, Pius sold out to Faschism in order to save face, and the Papacy got a black eye from which she hasn't yet completely recovered.

John Paul II did the most to try to heal those wounds.
AntV 2 | 167
13 Feb 2020 #32
During WWII, Pius sold out to Faschism in order to save face, and the Papacy got a black eye....

Absolute baloney!

If you're talking about the 1933 Concordat, it's easy to look at it through a post-WWII lens and make moral judgments, but that's a practice in historical reactionism. In 1933, the Church enter an agreement to not openly oppose the Reich government and in turn the Reich would allow the Church to preserve and keep independent its institutions and churches. Once the Reich broke the agreement, Pius assumed his vocal opposition of the Nazis (he opposed them when he was stationed in Germany during the Nazi rise). He tampered down his public opposition when it became clear that his public attacks were causing an increase of Catholic persecution by the Nazis. However, he secretly promoted that Catholic institutions do everything to protect Jews. Probably the most powerful illustartion of Pius not selling out the fascism was the Chief Rabbi of Rome during the Nazi oppression converted to catholicism after the war because of Pius' courage and witness of charity to the Jewish people.
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
13 Feb 2020 #33
The Catholic Church was known to have collaborated, both the Vatican as well as within Germany itself, e.g. Dr. Ludwig Mueller and so forth!

It was the Protestants, with the exception of Bishop Graf Galen of Muenster, such as Niemoeller and Bonhoeffer, who were most outspoken against Hitler.

>Die weisse Rose< was not a specifically religious resistance organization, although it is true that all participants, the Scholls, Prof. Huber, and Father Delp were Catholics, the last one, a prominent Church man.
AntV 2 | 167
13 Feb 2020 #34
Focus, Lyzko, focus. :). You're drifting off the road.

You made two claims:

1) That in the 2000-plus years of popedom, the ONLY pope to ever build substantive bridges amongst Catholics and Jews was JPII, and
2) Pope Pius sold out to fascism--and he did it to save face.

As I said, the 1933 Concordat was about the Church surviving a regime that was fundamentally at odds with the Church. To preserve its existence and independence in internal governance, the Church agreed to not openly oppose the Reich government--Hitler misinterpreted the meaning of the Concordat as meaning the Church supported the Reich (but that was not Pius' fault, it, but Hitler's). That's not selling out to fascism. If it is, then you would have to say Roosevelt and Churchill sold out to Communism by allying with Stalin and the Soviets--and you're going to be hard pressed to find a more sober-minded anti-communist than Winston Churchill.

Pius not only commanded that Catholic institutions protect Jews, but he did it himself by providing Jews shelter in the Vatican and the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo. Plus, the historical record shows that he was constantly contact with foreign diplomats to apprise them of the Jewish situation and use the Church as a vehicle of intelligence sharing.

Pius (and foreign diplomats, BTW) knew the way to maintain the position of rescuing Jews (and keep Catholics from persecution--priests and religious were persecuted by Nazis also, Dachau alone imprisoned 1000's of Catholic priests) was to maintain the appearance of neutrality. Notice the word "neutrality", which is different than "collaboration".

Anyhow, I still stand by my assertion that your post was absolute baloney--but don't take it personally. :)
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
13 Feb 2020 #35
Thing is, it's not nor will it ever be baloney!

I too stand by my facts, not my own opinions. Don't take it personally. :)

Ck out the history of "passes" (Persilscheine) allowed to Ex-Nazis to escape to Nazi-friendly South American countries towards the end of as well as after WWII.

I ought to have said, "stand by THE facts."
Then again, it does depend on which history you read.

Pius XII was a curious figure though!
On the one hand, he did indeed persevere and speak out against Bolshevism and Nazism in the very beginning, this though changed much later during the War.
Tacitus 2 | 1,176
14 Feb 2020 #36
I think you are too harsh in your assesment.

The Church under Pius XII did in fact a lot to help jews, e.g. by falsifying baptism certificates, and the pope himself was later thanked by the newly established state of Israel for this help.

He also - unlike some of the more conservative cardinals- never had any illusions about the nature of Nazism, and even wrote a highly critical enzyklia about it. He only stopped with his open criticism when it became clear that this did more harm than good, (by making the Third Reich crack down on all priests who published it for example), but he nevertheless encouraged those who criticized the regime, e.g. the famous archbiship Galen of Münster. Something that is often overlooked is that for most of his pontificate, Europe was basically devided between two totalitarian regimes who were deeply antireligious and who used to persecute priests. Not to mention how the Vatican was directly in reach of the Third Reich. In the end, he had to manouver under those difficult circumstances with limited ressources (as Stalin quipped: How many divisions does the pope have?) and without any guarantee (far from it in fact) that the worst part would be over by 1945. While there is certainly room for criticism, it can not be doubted that the Church had a very positive influence from 1939-1945.
AntV 2 | 167
14 Feb 2020 #37
I ought to have said, "stand by THE facts."

I think you got it right the first time. ;)

[He spoke] out against Bolshevism and Nazism in the very beginning, this though changed much later during the War.

More baloney! Your reading seems to be select articles from the internet. His change from speaking out wasn't a change in thought, but a matter of prudence to protect Catholics and Jews.

No doubt this a complex issue that is easy to make black-and-white moral judgments rom the comfort of our peacetime living rooms, but the contemporary realities of that time demanded prudence. What seems to accompany the criticisms against Pius is that the moral imperative to speak out against the evils of nazism were paramount and that prudential judgment had no place--it's a kind of scorched Earth kind of mentality.

You should check out books written by Rabbi Donald Dalin and Ronald Rychlak.

The defamation of Pius started with a play in the 1960's that wasn't based on historical research. Also, consider how Yad Vashem has gradually been softening its tone against Pius.

Ck out the history of "passes" (Persilscheine) allowed to Ex-Nazis to escape to Nazi-friendly South American countries.

What's your point? Are you claiming Pius had something to do with de-nazification policy or that he procured safe passage of known nazis to S.A.?

Look, there's no doubt that anti-semitism existed (and still exists) within the Church and that even some churchmen were supportive of the Nazi regime (at least at the beginning). But, none of that means Pius was a fascist sell-out or anti-semitic.

@Tacitus

Good post!
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
14 Feb 2020 #38
@AntV, as a history professor, I've read copiously over the years on this subject, yes, even the perfervid scribblings of Messrs. Irving and various "Historikerstreitler", namely Nolte and Hillgruber and so don't need your condescending remarks! I also never once labled Pius XII an anti-Semite per se. The Vatican most definitely DID choose to look the other way on numerous former Nazis, not the least of whom was a certain Alois Brunner:-)

@Tacitus,
As a historian yourself, I concur with your comments, yet it is equally true that Pius' conflicted reactions to both the Jewish Question as well as Nazism in general made him the object of severe criticism after the War as well.
AntV 2 | 167
15 Feb 2020 #39
@ Lyzko

I apologize if I came off condescending. I see where you might think I was. My sincerest apologies. I still think your analysis is baloney, though. :)

I'm genuinely interested in understanding your reasoning in coming to the conclusion that Pius XII was a sell-out to fascism.

You having read copiously about the subject would know that before 1939, Church programs, institutions, and, even, liturgical services were being assaulted. That Catholic publications were being censored--Catholic publications couldn't even publish dates of pilgrimages or catholic club meetings. That Catholic leaders, priests, and religious were being imprisoned and fined--priests were even tried for treason because they were accused of importing and exporting currency. Catholic schools and unions were disbanded by pressure from the Reich, etc., etc., etc.

You'd also know that during the war, 1,000s of Catholic priests and religious were sent to the death camps. That when the Dutch bishops spoke out against Jewish deportations, Catholics were persecuted (a good number of them Jewish converts). That many Polish Catholics suffered reprisals when the vatican would speak out. Plus, the other examples mentioned before and the context that Tacitus laid out, which is no small matter, and the fact that many Jews during that period praised and defended Pius.

I would think that these things can't easily be dismissed when considering what role Pius played. To say Pius sold out to the fascists seems that you are not giving these points adequate consideration.

So what's your reasoning?
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
15 Feb 2020 #40
Had the Vatikan though never entered into a Konkordat/Concordat, perhaps the former would have had more leeway in negotiating a palpable stance which might have stymied Hitler as well as Mussolini from gravitating towards complete autonomy as they did.

However, this would come under the "Guesswork School" of historiography of which no serious historian aka historiographer whom I know or studied under is a fan:-)
AntV 2 | 167
15 Feb 2020 #41
Who's "the former"? How would not entering into the Concordat been a better negotiating position? Are you suggesting Hitler and Mussolini's ambitions were somehow dependent upon Vatican approval?

However, this would come under the "Guesswork School" of historiography

But, isn't that exactly what you are doing? Guessing what would have happened if the Concordat wasn't signed?
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
15 Feb 2020 #42
Ya see that! I promised I wouldn't and I broke my promiseLOL

@AntV,
I am suggesting that Mussolini in particular would have perhaps had closer ties with the Vatikan, that's for sure.
Even a lapsed Catholic theoretically nevertheless remains a nominal Catholic.
AntV 2 | 167
15 Feb 2020 #43
You shouldn't go around breaking promises, Lyzko! What promise did you break?

Anyhow, the Concordat was entered into with the Reich government, not Mussolini. If signing the Concordat was considered to be a wink and a nod to the Fascists, wouldn't Mussolini have closer ties to the Vatican already? How would have not signing the Concordat created a more friendly environment for the Vatican to have closer ties, thereby a better negotiating position, with the Fascists? Also, how would Italian influence made the situation better? Is there evidence that Mussolini had significant influence over Hitler--my understanding is there isn't any evidence of such, but there is evidence Hitler didn't give much care to what Mussolini had to say.
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
15 Feb 2020 #44
Factually one-hundred percent correct!
Whilst I see no particular flaw in your logic, there is though no doubt that the Vatican has received a black eye over the decades, not only on the part of Israel as well as the Jews.
AntV 2 | 167
15 Feb 2020 #45
But, that's the issue: is the black eye legitimate?

I argue that according to the empirical evidence we have, it is not. I think it's beyond a reasonable doubt that Pius was acting prudential in his public policy, while behind the scenes actively promoting and supporting efforts to save Jews, as well as protecting Catholics and the institutional church so it could carry on its temporal mission during a very difficult and evil time. If I'm not mistaken, up until Hochhuth or Hocktuth (can't remember the guy's name) wrote his play in the early '60s, many Jews and even the State of Israel had a favorable opinion of Pius (I might need to be corrected on the support of the State of Israel, but many individuals Jew attested to Pius' efforts to protect Jews).

The reason I think it is important to fix this flawed perception of Pius is that his cause for canonization is being considered and if the Church finds he's worthy to be proclaimed a saint, you know as well as I that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in Israel and throughout the Jewish world--hell, the political pressure has already paused his beatification. There will be great political tension between the Vatican and Israel, which is not good for the Middle east.
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
16 Feb 2020 #46
Rolf Hochhuth, Friedrich Duerrenmatt among several other post-War German-language authors were heroes of the pen and brought out skeletons in the closet, long hoped to have been dead and buried.

:-)
Tacitus 2 | 1,176
17 Feb 2020 #47
Yeah no, what Hochhuth did was a defamation campaign likely sponsored by the SED to weaken the authority of the church with very little basis in reality. I mean I like to criticize the church for their sins in the past, but the slander of Pius was just unfair and unjust. I have read several biographies about him, and none thought that this was in any way justified. It is not that his pontificate was perfect - then again none is - but singling out some flaws and overlooking all the good he did is not a fair assesment.

Anyway the vatican has now declassified the last documents about Pius, perhaps there will be new revelations, but that seems doubtful.
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
17 Feb 2020 #48
Once again though, Tacitus, as a historian, you're also well aware of the dangers of revisionist history.
Ever since the so-called "Historikerstreit" in the early '70's and well into the present, there's been a tendency world wide, not only in Germany by a long shot, to marginalize the significance of various institutions at the time in facilitating Hitler's maintaining power. Sadly, the Vatican has become a casualty, many of her wounds, barely able to be healed.

Ck out a recent >SPIEGEL< article from several weeks ago, "Der Daemokrat", a disturbing expose of Hoecke's attempt to curry favor with the SPD in order to work his fatal agenda into local Parliament from his home state of Thuringia!
OP Crow 146 | 9,112
11 Mar 2021 #49
Tolerance shine from the Vatican? Is this new era? A reset?

The Vatican pays in Pachamama

newdailycompass.com/en/the-vatican-pays-in-pachamama

v

€10 coin in silver (€69) to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Earth Day. ... is a young pregnant woman whose womb is the planet earth

At the same time the Mint issued other coins. ...... St. Peter with outstretched arms welcoming migrants

Just tell me where are you with Pachamama?
Strzelec35 20 | 1,114
11 Mar 2021 #50
miroslaw,

how can you be pro vatican with what that church did? read up on the dark ages or burning of witches or the inquisition.

lol at this article writer or journalist basiclaly making fun of in his opening statement of guys like miroslaw:

ncregister.com/blog/were-50-million-people-really-killed-in-the-inquisition
OP Crow 146 | 9,112
11 Mar 2021 #51
I merely gave info. Plus, I myself don`t know what to think on Pachamama. On one hand, I like it if its the sign of tolerance. On the other hand, what if Vatican clergy starting openly to behave as some dojo of dark satanic cultists?

Finally, if its wave of freedom, if Latinos can have Pachamama, why we Slavs shouldn`t get our Svetovid back. Coin of Svetovid in Vatican would be nice gesture of love for Slavs. Token of goodwill so we know that papacy don`t live only for itself and germanics.

Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Pachamama was worshiped at Vatican and it wasn't harmless

lifesitenews.com/opinion/bishop-athanasius-schneider-pachamama-was-worshiped-at-vatican-and-it-wasnt-harmless

'To put Pachamama on altars or in consecrated churches in order to worship them, is a true and plain desecration.'

johnny reb 28 | 5,015
15 Mar 2021 #52
Why is Vatican traditionally on German and not on Polish side? i mean, when it comes to strategic interests

Have you seen the latest Crow ?
ROME-The Vatican on Monday forbade blessings of same-sex relationships, contradicting calls for the practice by progressive bishops in Germany and elsewhere, and setting a limit to the conciliatory approach to gay people that has marked Pope Francis' pontificate.

The Vatican's doctrinal office, in a document personally approved by Pope Francis, said it wasn't permissible for clergy to pronounce blessings on any relationship outside of marriage between a man and a woman.
OP Crow 146 | 9,112
15 Mar 2021 #53
I think this. I don't trust the Vatican. Whatever the rich of Vatican do has its purpose and their main tool is the influence they have on people. Souls are their armies and they will do whatever is possible to retain influence on people. They will say whatever is needed.

To all Poles here

Let me show you something. But you would never again look at Pope John Paul II with the same eyes.

Still, I would tell you that we Serbs know how are Croat nazis responsible for this manipulation, for deeper Germanic interests and schemes within schemes, plots within plots. We know this because no matter John Paul mistaken, he recognized the evil plot around him and he tried to redeem himself and when NATO back in 1999 started to bomb Serbia, Pope John Paul did truly all possible and impossible to prevent the involvement of Poland in it. He even traveled to Poland and gave last of his health in this mission of his. But traitor Kwasnesky ridiculed his effort, played ping pong with him, sending him from institution to institution. It was the moment when ultra-right Catholic Jan Lopuzansky, after talking to John Paul, within the parliament of Poland raised the voice and said how: ``... today NATO bombing Serbia, tomorrow may bomb Poland... ``

And here is what I want to show you > How nazi Croat ustashe manipulated John Paul II, gave him false information and convinced him to beatify Cardinal Stepinac vicar priest of armies of nazi ustashe Independent State of Croatia >

> youtube.com/watch?v=ze1JDQnZKms

It is worse than if somebody beatifies Bandera, Hitler, Mussolini or Franco of Spain. It is worse because Stepinac was a man of the Christian Church. High in the hierarchy. But monster.

This shame to John Paul II did nazi Croat ustashe fanatics. Great lesson to Poland and Poles always to be vigilant. John Paul tried to correct this but effectively, in the eyes of history, Croat ustashe used him, manipulated, wasted and destroyed.

I am so sorry Poles, for I had to show you this. I know John Paul is dear to you. I am so sorry.
OP Crow 146 | 9,112
24 Mar 2021 #54
I will give you even more info on this scandal and you wont like it. Nazi Croat ustashe movement truly dealt fatal blow onto the memory of John Paul II when they seduced him to start process of sanctification of ustashe main Catholic military vicar priest.

Serbian mass media brings these days news about latest documents that without any doubt confirms monstrous nature of Cardinal Stepinac that was beatified by Pope John Paul II.

Detalji iz Stepinčevih pisama: "Srbi bi bili likvidirani"; "Ili će biti katolička, ili neka nestane"
b92/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2021&mm=03&dd=24&nav_category=167&nav_id=1832193
From letter Stepinac wrote to Pope Pius XII at a time of ongoing genocide (in worse imaginable bestial ways) of around 1. mil. Orthodox Serbs in so called Independent state of Croatia during WWII in area under Stepinac`s jurisdiction:

"Veliki je interes Srba šizmatika da uđu u Katoličku crkvu. Sigurno to čine pod utiskom da vlast podržava katoličanstvo.

translation > ``Its in great interest of Orthodox Serbs to enter in Catholic Church. They doing so because state support Catholicism.``

Verujem, kada bi poglavnik Pavelić bio 20 godina na čelu vlade, šizmatici bi bili likvidirani iz Hrvatske".

translation > ``I believe, if Pavelic is head of state for 20 years, all Orthodox would be liquidated.``

mogu primetiti da u krugovima vlasti postoji najbolja želja da se Hrvatska pretvori u katoličku zemlju

translation > ``I can notice how are state leaders completely dedicated to turn Croatia into a Catholic state.``

Ratni ministar (Slavko Kvaternik) mi je apsolutno garantovao: ili će Hrvatska biti katolička zemlja, ili neka nestane"

translation > ``A war minister gave his word to me- Croatia will be Catholic or there won`t be Croatia.``

Development

Scandal culminates among Catholic clergy in Croatia. Nothing problematic in Stepinac`s letters to Pope Pius XII. Nothing against Christian faith and morals.

> youtube.com/watch?v=GeOGCibqjLw
Miloslaw 9 | 2,825
24 Mar 2021 #55
@Crow

You are totally obsessed with your Serbian propaganda and lies....Poles are not as stupid as Serbs and do not fall for your BS.
Joker 2 | 1,572
24 Mar 2021 #56
Nobody bothers to read all his crap as well... Its just annoying "scroll by"

Serbian propaganda and lies

Its a never ending nuisance and total BS!
OP Crow 146 | 9,112
24 Mar 2021 #57
Spare us big words Milo. Contribute to thread, give counter-argument or walk from here. Prove that Vatican (with all apologies to current Pope Francis whom I respect) work for Poland and not for Germany.
Joker 2 | 1,572
24 Mar 2021 #58
Spare us big words Milo

What "big" words did he us? Want me to explain some English 101 to you? Its been a decade already, duh!

Why do you have to drag the Pope into all your propaganda, Crow?
OP Crow 146 | 9,112
24 Mar 2021 #59
Me to drag the Pope?

I gave info to you that Nazi ustashe hijacked life work of Pope John Paul II and THAT is your respond? Paul was much better then Pius but Nazi ustashe made them equal. Respond to that.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
25 Mar 2021 #60
Why should the Vatican work for Germany in the first place, Crowie?

Only the south of Germany is nominally catholic anyhow, the bigger part is protestant (no natural ally of the Vatican) and an even bigger part couldn't care less about religion at all....

Who exactly are they working for? To what goal?


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