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What proportion of the Polish population collaborated with the Nazis?


Lyzko
6 Dec 2011  #31
Only one religion teaches hatred??? Who taught the rubbish that the Jews killed Christ, when in fact, it was the Romans?? Moreover, the irony is that Jesus himself was Jewish (if only on his mother's side)-:) The Jihahdists preach death to ALL infidels! Are they Jews??-:) Think about what you're saying.

While Hitler certainly did want to eliminate other groups besides the Jews (there were also different "classes" of Jews on the Nazi pecking order), ONLY the Jews

were slated for annihilation based solely on their birth. If homosexuals of any stripe changed their ways, they were spared. The Sinti-Roma though, like the Jews, had no chance either, this is correct. And here, Hitler differs fundamentally from Stalin who did NOT believe in biologically driven extermination, if the hated group in question then decided to curry favor with the Communists!

@Ironside, the truth often hurts and as far as my post being biased, look at the historical record!
Lyzko
6 Dec 2011  #32
You're basically correct here too. Yet, it was Hitler Judophobia which ended up LOSING him the war, becuase he lost sight of other objectives, often forgotten, as he was blinded by this Jew hatred.
grubas 12 | 1,391
6 Dec 2011  #33
It is well documented that Poles did not hate Jews before WW2.

Some did.And it's understanable,just like in case of any and every country with minority population.I can guarntee you that if for example Chinese occupied USA and decided to exterminate all Mexicans or Americans of Mexican decent there would be no shortage of Americans willing to round them up.

It was not just one race of people the Nazis wanted rid of for ever,

First of all Slavic or Slavonic people are not a race but linguistic group.Lets not forget that Germans were very inconsistent with their racial theories and their policies regarding Slavs were changing depending on German army victories or defeats.

Partly because even though Hitler hated the Slavs in general as 'Untermenschen', he still regarded them as worthy of life, albeit a slave's existence.

He did?He was a pretty good buddy of Slovak Jozef Tiso and you won't deny that Slovakians are Slavs.What about Ukrainians and Croatians fighting along side Wehrmacht?What about Vlasov army?
Lyzko
6 Dec 2011  #34
Sure, again, there were scores of non-German collaborators with the Nazis!
sascha 1 | 826
6 Dec 2011  #35
You're basically correct here too. Yet, it was Hitler Judophobia which ended up LOSING him the war, becuase he lost sight of other objectives, often forgotten, as he was blinded by this Jew hatred.

hitler lost the war because of many other factors rather than the jews. they were, looking at the whole picture, 'just' a nebenschauplatz
Lyzko
6 Dec 2011  #36
Eine Nebenschau die aber leider ins Rampenlicht der Nazipolitik zum HAUPTschauplatz gestellt wurde!

It might have been intended merely as a sideshow in the beginning, it sure didn't end up that way though! Hitler lost 'cause he was foolishly fighting a two-front war!!!
sascha 1 | 826
6 Dec 2011  #37
Hitler lost 'cause he was foolishly fighting a two-front war!!

thats correct.

Eine Nebenschau die aber leider ins Rampenlicht der Nazipolitik zum HAUPTschauplatz gestellt wurde!

bravo for the german. google translate??? ;)

It might have been intended merely as a sideshow in the beginning, it sure didn't end up that way though!

i am telling you that from the pure technical aspect it was not important. for the propaganda for the use of the nazis and of course later after the war it was THE topic. even more than the millions and abermillions who lost their lives.

the propaganda took over someone else...
grubas 12 | 1,391
6 Dec 2011  #38
My theory is that AH hated Poles because they did not want to ally with Germany when offered a deal(what was a Poland's grave mistake in my opinion).I already said in another thread that in my opinion Germany would have won the war if Poland sided with them.Not because Polish army was especially strong but because allied with Poland he would be able to invade Soviet Union first and the western powers would not interrupt him.Poland's refusal made this plan impossible.When did Hitler start talking **** about Poland?
Lyzko
6 Dec 2011  #39
@lieber Sascha, NO google translator here! Only I/Just (little) me and myself-:))) LOL thanx for the compliment!
Disagree with though once again with your tack on the propoganda bit. The histories I've read, mostly by Germans, some Americans, would appear to confirm my views!

Your last sentence, by the way, is a PURE translation from the German: Die Propaganda uebernahm doch jemand anderer = The propoganda overtook someone other.. (literally)

English: Others were responsible for taking over the propoganda. It was the propoganda "taking over" the other person, but the other person taking over the propoganda... Not clear from your sentence.

Sorry to be such a pain.

Grubas, I agree in part. Sort of like Martin Luther and the Jews. He DID NOT hate the Jews in the beginning!!!! Just so we're clear on this. He only began to hate them when they refused to convert to Christianity-:)
ShortHaitThug
6 Dec 2011  #40
The Jihahdists preach death to ALL infidels! Are they Jews??-:)

Once again empty claim behind the headline, while you would like it to make it a religious issue it simply is not, not once have those very same headlines have a field day giving an example of Jewish community living in the Arab states being slathered, kicked out of their homes or whatnot proving beyond doubt that Islam as a religion will not tolerate infidels but it does happens on a daily basis in the Jewish state.

Who taught the rubbish that the Jews killed Christ, when in fact, it was the Romans?

Don’t forget this is also a perfect example of Jewish collaboration with the enemy, the one that reaches the highest Jewish religious authority at that time as well as those Jews that would profit at any opportunity given the chance. LOL nothing new here, that holds true for some in all societies but it does prove that Jews throughout their history collaborated with the enemy. They just accuse everyone else of it to hide their own sins and once again profit in the process.

Moreover, the irony is that Jesus himself was Jewish (if only on his mother's side)-:)

Making him a true Jew in your own tradition as well as the law, are you telling me that a Jew selling out one of his own for a profit is an excusable and acceptable act and it shouldn’t be so shocking to anyone? I knew that.
Prusakowski - | 25
6 Dec 2011  #41
Do you regard Poles conscripted into in the German Army during that period as collaboration?

For many Poles in the Warthe Gau post 1939 ("West Prussia'), conscription was their fate.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
6 Dec 2011  #42
Never heard of the Blue Police? Or the Świętokrzyśkie Brigade (and the NSZ in general)?
The Nazis did not allow the Poles to collaborate. So it is very easy to be righteous. What makes anyone think that the Poles had some mysterious DNA which prevented them from collaborating with the Nazis?
I'm_shocked
6 Dec 2011  #43
Do you regard Poles conscripted into in the German Army during that period as collaboration?

Shocking indeed, they just can’t resist any opportunity that will get them compensation. WWII is all about Shoah! No one else suffered as a result, all black and white.
Crow 137 | 7,540
6 Dec 2011  #44
What proportion of the Polish population collaborated with the Nazis?

people, its stupid question

Who gives a sh** what proportion? As if we ask, how much Poles collaborate with NATO or EU (to put cross on myself)? For now, only important thing is that Poles survive.
Lyzko
7 Dec 2011  #45
If the question is so stupid, why are books being written on this subject? Is the truth too painful, like the truth about what we in the US did to our Native American population??! Both are shameful and should be regarded equally as such!
Steveramsfan 2 | 306
7 Dec 2011  #46
Jihahdists preach death to ALL infidels!

Islam does not preach death to all infidels, the religious fanatics preach that.

Jihad from the Quran means "an internal battle within yourself to be a better person and trust in God"
Also an Infidel is a non believer in God not a non muslim.

The true teachings have been twisted by religious fanatics.

The Jewish religious fanatics are just as bad as the Christian fanatics and Muslim fanatics.

Is the truth too painful, like the truth about what we in the US did to our Native American population??!

Collaborating to save your own life or stealing land of the Natives for a countries gain cannot be counted together.

First of all Slavic or Slavonic people are not a race but linguistic group.Lets not forget that Germans were very inconsistent with their racial theories and their policies regarding Slavs were changing depending on German army victories or defeats.

I was refering to the post about Jews being killed by the Nazis, they tried to kill lots of races and people they didn't like. I was not refering to Slavs as a race.

My theory is that AH hated Poles because they did not want to ally with Germany when offered a deal(what was a Poland's grave mistake in my opinion).

Before WW1 "Poland" was part of Germany and Russia. At the End of WW1 in the Versailes Treaty territory was taken off the defeated Germany and from the New Soviets, this was then reformed as Poland and also Chechoslovakia was formed from territory taken from Germany.

The Versailes Treaty also humiliated the German nation, IMHO the treaty went too far and had a causal effect on the Nazis starting WW2.

Hitler took back Czechoslovakia first, then moved onto Poland. It should have been obvious to the old WW1 allies this was going to happen.

The Jews were a way of inciting the country to elect the Nazis which resulted in Genocide about 10 years later.
Lyzko
7 Dec 2011  #47
Blaming the Jews for their own genocide is convoluted logic. Whilst many acted badly, so did everyone else. There are good Jews, Poles, Germans, Muslims etc.... and there're some rotten apples. Why then let the few spoil things for the many?? Makes no sense, then again, neither does much of this thread!
sobieski 107 | 2,129
7 Dec 2011  #48
Who gives a sh** what proportion? As if we ask, how much Poles collaborate with NATO or EU (to put cross on myself)? For now, only important thing is that Poles survive.

But then you come from a tribe specialized in mass-murdering and gang-raping. And setting up camps just for that.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
7 Dec 2011  #49
Interesting observation, the Jewish apparatchiks representing the communists Soviets and running the Gulags must have come from that very same tribe then.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
7 Dec 2011  #50
But then you come from a tribe specialized in mass-murdering and gang-raping. And setting up camps just for that.

Sobeiski, you are a Belgian and what your nation did in the Congo by way of mass-murder and other atrocities makes the Serbs' actions pale in comparison. A Pole named Joseph Conrad wrote a novella about it called Heart of Darkness. If Crow's tribe is tainted by the actions of some of its members than your tribe is even more tainted so why don't you stop harrassing him and the other Serbs on this forum?
Crow 137 | 7,540
7 Dec 2011  #51
But then you come from a tribe specialized in mass-murdering and gang-raping. And setting up camps just for that.

don`t trust in Germanic anti-Serbian propaganda and, after all, let us stay on topic.

As i said, its absolutely irrelevant how much Poles collaborated with Nazis. What was their alternative? To die in resistance when we see that modern day EU looks similarly to the Nazi Germany. In the same time, NATO looks like some kind of SS division
ShawnH 8 | 1,497
7 Dec 2011  #52
"I will probably be the first Polish foreign minister in history to say so, but here it is: I fear German power less than I am beginning to fear German inactivity."

Radek Sikorski.

This quote may have been thenews/1/10/Artykul/59667,Sikorski-%E2%80%98European-speech-penned-by-British-diplomat penned by an Englishman....

This must burn you up, Crow...
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
7 Dec 2011  #53
What was their alternative? To die in resistance

That's what so many did.

modern day EU looks similarly to the Nazi Germany

No it doesn't.

Never heard of the Blue Police? Or the Świętokrzyśkie Brigade (and the NSZ in general)?
The Nazis did not allow the Poles to collaborate. So it is very easy to be righteous. What makes anyone think that the Poles had some mysterious DNA which prevented them from collaborating with the Nazis?

Exactly. It was a complicated time. We can't easily judge the choices people made by the standards of today. Nevertheless, good and evil are absolute, if sometimes easier to see with indsight.

. A Pole named Joseph Conrad wrote a novella about it called Heart of Darkness.

Everyone knows that - everyone in Europe anyway. However you don't seem to understand what the novel actually says...
Crow 137 | 7,540
7 Dec 2011  #54
That's what so many did.

yes.

No it doesn't.

No?
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
7 Dec 2011  #55
This must burn you up, Crow...

Hell this burns me up! I’m just glad that soon this house of cards will fall apart anyway.

No it doesn't.

Superficial difference but I can see how one can be fooled to think otherwise.
ShawnH 8 | 1,497
7 Dec 2011  #56
I’m just glad that soon this house of cards will fall apart anyway.

I think it is in the best interest of too many important people to let it fall.
gumishu 11 | 5,007
7 Dec 2011  #57
it is mostly in the interest of those who run the US that the Eurozone falls - for the same reasons the US invaded Iraq - which is it will secure the US dollar will remain the most important international currency being used for oil trade
mactifosi 1 | 11
7 Dec 2011  #58
Very few Poles collaborated, the Nazis did not allow it, it was usually only on a local level for hunting Jews and often it was coerced under the threat of violence.

That is not to say that some Poles who hated the Jews were not willing accomplices but only on this subject.

Ethnic Germans are something different as they saw the invading Nazis as conquering heroes.
It is wrong to castigate Silesians as Kaczynski has done, the ethnic Germans were forcibly removed from Poland after 1945, very few remained in Western Poland.

Hitler planned for Poznan to be the capital of the Eastern kingdom, the city was to be run by the local German population as the admin centre

for all the Slavic speaking peoples.
The city was being rebuilt to suit this purpose, with areas of the city set aside for the German elite, such as Solacz down the road from me.

The Zamek in Poznan was being redesigned to be identical to his palace in Berlin.

The goal was to not only eliminate the Jews and other ethnic groups, it was to remove the educated classes in Slavic countries.
The Easterm empire was to be the labour force for the Third Reich but the overall aim was to greatly reduce this population making it easier to control.

The reproductive experiments were also aimed at breeding the slaves to be obedient and docile with heavily controlled reproductive programs.

The anti-semitic movement which inspired Hitler began in Austria at the turn of the century, Vienna elected an antisemitic mayor, Karl Lueger.
He was opposed by the Emperor Franz Joseph I, who had granted Jews equal rights.

Many of the leading Nazis, the main architects of the Holocaust were in fact Austrian Catholics who had been influenced by Karl Lueger and his followers.

It is wrong to say Hitler expected the Catholics to be predisposed to help, he had long abandoned the Catholic religion, in favour of his new pagan religion.

It would be also wrong to say that the Catholic church was vehemently opposed to the Nazis persecution of the Jews, it often did nothing to assist non-Catholics.

It did not officially collaborate but it also did not encourage it's flock to help the Jews, it took a neutral stance which in my opinion is a form of collaboration.

Publicly it would denounce the rounds-ups etc., however in my opinion this was more for show.
The Vatican did not want to be seen as helping Jews, despite the fact it could have done much to save Jews, it did little.

That is not to say that some priests did not sacrifice themselves to help Jews, many did but they did it out of morale conscience and not as official church policy.

This is in contrast to many of the Lutheran and Protestant churches which setup escape networks to help the Jews.

Hitler at no stage desired Poland as a partner, his initial plan was to free the ethnic Germans, this was completely incompatible with working with Poland as a partner.

His plans for Poznan and Poland in general were drawn up long before the invasion.

The Jews were to be eliminated the Polish population reduced to manageable numbers.
Lyzko
7 Dec 2011  #59
What you've posted has elements of truth, at least as regards Austria. As regards Poland, Hitler clearly wanted to make it, as with all Slavic neighbors, feudal fiefdoms, all subservient entirely to the New Order. As far as the Jews were concerned, the difference once again between Hitler and Stalin, for that matter Hitler and other European dictators at the time, was that he sought not only conquest of Jewish properties, but the systematic elimination of the Jew as a biological virus for which NO AMOUNT of currying favor or sucking up could have saved them! The Jews were slated for extirpation from the get go. Stalin had his "court Jews", so to speak, those willing to submit to him and become slaves of the state.

This is a key distinction!
Lyzko
7 Dec 2011  #60
Apologies, "vassal states" would be preferrable in terms of historical accuracy than 'feudal fiefdoms', since Poland already HAD such wojewodschaften of its own, many of which dated back to the origins of Polish royalty, the first "houses" of Poland, e.g. the Piasts etc...

As far as Poland's collaboration, it certainly was no better or worse than Hungary's or Romania's. As far as I've researched however, the were no specific massacres in the latter as there were in post-War Poland with Kielce and Jedwabne. Furthermore, as I recall, Ceauscescu hated all opposition the same, be they Jews or gentiles and his hideous torture (stringing people up hourlong from meathooks etc..) was meted out against anyone who opposed him, scarcely only the Jews!


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