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What do Poles think about Turks?

osiol 55 | 3,922
26 May 2008 #211
None of this answers the most important question:

Greeks or Turks - which ones make the best kebabs?
southern 75 | 7,096
26 May 2008 #212
and how do you think turks got Istanbul from Byzantium? was it easy?

Yes,it was easy.Byzantium had only 20000 soldiers at the time of the attack and the Turks had 200000.

they had a cannon called "great Turkish bombard

Yes,which was invented by a Hungarian called Unyadi who wanted to sell it first to the byzantine Emperor.

and after we got Istanbul we didn't destroy any religion or cultural thing there. even respected to orthodox people

Yes,because Istanbul most likely surrendered and by the law of Quran,Muslims do not destroy cities which surrender to them and let orthodox Christians keep their faith under condition to give 10% of their income as tax.

at that time ottomans were very rich too, they were always winning the wars so gaining spoils, taking taxes etc

Yes,they got richer by collecting everything which was produced in Balkans and Arab world by the working folks.When they lost their conquests,they became suddenly poor.

as a sick state

At least some true words.Indeed the ottoman Empire was described as the sick man of Europe.Some nations have to give explanations why they prolonged its existence for so long.

we had to revolt against ottomans much before

How to revolt against the Ottomans when the Ottomans were actually you?You had to revolt against yourselves.

say before eu - after eu

Before EU accession Greece had greater GDP per capita than Portugal and Spain.After Greece joined EU,Spain has surpassed Greece in terms of GDP per capita and Portugal is close.What are you talking about?

true, you are right about it.

I know I am right.Do you see?Everyone had their role.Greeks,Jews and Armenians were competitors in business and Ottomans favored mostly Jews.That's why Jews in Salonica were sad when Greek army liberated the city from Ottomans and so they voted against Venizelos(you know what I mean).

before world war I ottomans had 21 million population

You distract data.Ottoman Empire before WW1 contained today's Macedonia,Iraq,Syria,Palestine,Saudi Arabia,Qatar,Albania and south Bulgaria.So it had much more population than Turkey after the war which had only 7 million(now it has 10 times more).

it was a war with mutual dead

It was ethnic cleansing.Greeks near Pontos in Trapezounta,Samsunta who fought with the Armenians had to get out as well.Neoturks had already began the ethnic cleansing before WW1.

also tell how many turks forced and killed by Greece? be at least a little objective.

500000 Turks out of Macedonia and 200000 out of Creta.However by the treaty of Lausanne in 1923 250000 Greeks remained in Istanbul and 150000 Turks remained in Thrace.Now after the pogrom in 1954 there are 4000 Greeks in Istanbul while the Turks in Thrace have increased over 200000.

called "eoka".

to kill people in Turkish villages

I hope you do not want to open the issue since there are Englishmen watching the forum as well.

killing kurds?


Turkey is country of Kurds and Turks. and many other nations inside. we are brother people. if you ask Kurds they will be going to say the same thing.

Kurds strongly deny they are the same with Turks.You regard them as Turks.They form 25% of population in Turkey.

is pkk terror

US regards similar Kurdish organizations in northern Iraq as liberators and freedom fighters.

or blame my nation unfairly

Fairly.There was 400 years occupation,what more is needed?
JustysiaS 13 | 2,240
26 May 2008 #213
we are brother people. if you ask kurds they will be going to say the same thing

im not great at the history, facts and figures of your topic, but i have spoken to some Turkish people and they refer to Kurds as the 2nd class citizens, shame to Turkey and giving Turks a bad name. I've been told that Kurdish are the nasty sort you come accross on a night out, harassing women and when you go for a holiday to Turkey Kurds are most likely to attack you and make your stay miserable, not mentioning all them pests on skype or facebook saying they are from Turkey - according to Turks ive spoken to, these are all Kurds. Just what i heard from Turkish people, its not my opinion.
King Sobieski 2 | 716
26 May 2008 #214
Greeks or Turks - which ones make the best kebabs?

i like the turkish bread but prefer the spit lamb, halaal meat is missing something.
southern 75 | 7,096
26 May 2008 #215
Greek kebab is different from Turkish.Turks do not allow pork.Anyway Greek kebab is not famous although it is more tasty than Turkish in my opinion.

Gyros is more known which has pork inside or chicken.
King Sobieski 2 | 716
26 May 2008 #216
where do you live southern?

here in Australia Greek souvlaki's (gyros,kebab) as they are known are usually lamb or chicken. have not come across a pork souva.

the spit lamb is definitely better than the halal meat.
osiol 55 | 3,922
26 May 2008 #217
Kebab has to be lamb really (personal preference). I've not seen pork in a kebab, Greek or otherwise.
I have tried Turkish ham-like stuff that's a mix of beef and chicken. Not bad, but sometimes there's no substitute for a real bit of pig.
isisores - | 46
27 May 2008 #218

man it makes really nosense to discuss something with you. you are such blind, have a straight idea and making obstinacy on it like 90 years old seniles.

and can't understand anything, you have a perception problem. i tell you greece before eu and after eu, you tell me comparision of greece, spain, portugal before eu and after eu. totally different things. try to solve how different in your mind. i believe you can.

i tell you turkey don't kill kurds cause they are our own people and i tell you with reasons why it's impossible, you just say "no they kill", why they kill? cause they kill they just kill. really like children. it's like you are the one who live in turkey and i'm from another planet. i'm the one living with kurds here i know all better than you.

ottomans were turks how can you revolt against yourself? ottomans were a family which was ruling the country. and people lived in this country called ottoman civilizens. it doesn't mean all turks are ottomans and all ottomans are turks. yes when did i say that 21 million was all turkish? of course everybody knows they were from various of nations. but there were many turks in that 5 million deads as well as armenians or other nations.

you say englishmen watching, so what? eoka were sadists. against english too as well as they were against turks. it's the truth.

anyways really you are such a useless one. just leave turks alone from your racist words. you can contunie to live in 200 years ago in your own mind, but just in your mind. it's the year 2008 here.
Marek 4 | 867
27 May 2008 #219
'May I borrow that joke?'

Bratwurst Boy, I wasn't joking. -:) LOL Furthermore, I never 'lend' my material. That'd be approx 100 euros please, OOOPS (old) złoty. Hmmm, with the current rate of exchange US dollar to euro...... eh- that;s about .50. Oh, and that's only minus interest (Zins). I've got to make something from the deal. Payment may be tendered (Zahlung geleistet) at any time ( long as it's within 14 days.) Ciao time!

southern 75 | 7,096
27 May 2008 #220
here in Australia Greek souvlaki's (gyros,kebab) as they are known are usually lamb or chicken. have not come across a pork souva.

Australia is not the country of original Greek food.
Souvlaki is made either from pork or from chicken.
Gyros is made from pork or pork mixed with lamb or from chicken.Very few fast foods offer also a variant of gyros from lamb but only n northern Greece.

Greek kebab is made from beef or from lamb and is very different from Turkish kebab.I doubt it exists in Greek restaurants outside Greece.Commercial food is only gyros and souvlaki.

i tell you greece before eu and after eu, you tell me comparison of Greece, Spain, Portugal before eu and after eu. totally different things.

Isisores,economic development is relative and can be estimated only in relation to other countries' development.For example Turkey now falls behind in terms of economic growth from many countries of former eastern block which experienced a long period of economic stagnation under communism.And some of these countries do not even belong to EU.

What do you bet that GDP per capita of Greece was in 1980,1 year before EU accession higher than GDP per capita in Turkey and even higher than GDP per capita in Turkey than it is now.(the difference was bigger then).Do you want to discuss the data?

ottomans were a family which was ruling the country

You play with words.Ottoman Turks are called the Turks who came in 13th century in order to be distinguished from Seltzuk Turks who came in Asia Minor in 11th century.Ottoman was maybe the name of the royal family but it came to mean all the turkish folks.The Turks were responsible for the law and administration and economy and structure in ottoman Empire as the Greeks were responsible for the same in the times of byzantine Empire.They may have called themselves Roman citizens but they were actually Greeks.

when did i say that 21 million was all turkish?

You did not say it but you implied it silently by throwing the number of 21 million before WW1 and 7 million after and writing about slaughtering in between.So you hoped that sb would reach the conclusion that two thirds of Turkish population were massacred.

5 million dead as

5 million dead Turks in WW1?Tell me how many dozens of thousands of English and Australian,New Zealand troops did the Turks kill defending the ottoman Empire and the Sultan.

eoka were sadists

Eoka actually liberated Cyprus from English by asking a lot of pressure on them.Of course English offered a treaty Hong-Kong style in which Cyprus would integrate to Greece after 30 years(after 1964) and the alternative of an independent Cyprus with lots of rights and government positions to the Turkish minority and keeping of the British bases on island.Cypriots preferred the second solution which proved to be catastrophic since it led to empowerment of Turks and constant conflicts often supported by British who used the Greek-Turkish conflict for their interests thus always supporting the Turkish side which was the weakest and which actually never fought actively against the British rule on island.

[quote=isisores]it's the year 2008 here.

Yes,I know.Still 40000 Turkish troops on Cyprus,3000 Turkish tanks on Greek borders and 10 flights of Turkish planes above Aegean Sea every day.Turkish military still controlling political life,opposition and journalists supporting Kurds imprisoned,poor record on human rights respect(see Ocalan),etc etc.2008 indeed and nothing has changed.Difficult to change the Turks as BB would agree.
Marek 4 | 867
27 May 2008 #221
'Tavla', I believe is a Turkish contribution to what we call today 'the board game'. In parts of India it's also known as 'parcheesi', if my memory is correct (..which it usually is.. knock wood...Oh, come in!' LOL )

In England and the States it's called 'backgammon'.

Who invented the telelscope? A Turk too, I think. Rats!!! Wrong again. It was a European, Galileo. (Always did confuse Germans with Turks. Or was he Spanish?)
southern 75 | 7,096
27 May 2008 #222

Tavli.It is byzantine.Backgammon is only one way of playing tavli which is called portes(doors) in Greece.There are two more ways of playing but they are not known in the West.

Turkish is the sweet baklava,I admit it although the Cypriots wanted it to be recognized as cyprian in EU legislature.

Some commonly used turkish words in Greece
rusfet=political favour,recruiting sb to work in a public sector position because he voted for the party in government
bachtsis=present to gain one's favour.A fine form of bribery always used to set public sector in motion for one's favour
rachat=laziness,doing nothing,just lying on a chair in deep apathy.Usually Turks combined it with smoking the
nargile:Pipeline to smoke the hashish.Rich Turks had very decent nargiles with paintings etc on them,some were real peaces of art.
Marek 4 | 867
27 May 2008 #223
Thanks, Southern!

'Turkish is the sweet baklava..." ??? Odd sentence structure. English isn't your mother tongue, I take it. I think you meant here 'Sweet baklava (no "the" article necessary) is Turkish.', no? In addition, I wasn't aware that there was any kind of baklava other than the sweet variety. Interesting. Well, one never stops learning. -:)

I notice other occasional word-order choices in your English which seem almost translated from some other language.
27 May 2008 #224
What do you bet that GDP per capita of Greece was in 1980,1 year before EU accession higher than GDP per capita in Turkey and even higher than GDP per capita in Turkey than it is now.(the difference was bigger then).

Greece is one of the 20 countries which has negative population growth. Almost same production divided by less population each year is equal to higher GDP per capita. İt is very funny. Greece has a population of 11.000.000 decreasing day by day. İf she manages to be 5.500.000, GDP will be doubled. Success story :)
southern 75 | 7,096
27 May 2008 #225
negative population growth

Most EU countries have negative population growth.Negative population growth is correlated with higher levels of economic development.
On the contrary developing countries(like India,Brazil) have positive,bursting population growth.Turkey's population increased from 60 million to 70 million in last decade.So we can categorize Turkey accordingly.

(Former communist countries are an exception in essence that they have negative population growth despite developing economy but there are reasons for that connected with higher levels of education in communist countries which were not in proportion to real economical strength).

'Sweet baklava (no "the" article necessary) is Turkish.

Yes,sweet baklava is Turkish.
The instrument baglama is also Turkish.
The instrument bouzouki is not Turkish,is byzantine.
I do not know if that makes sense.

Like the Slavs also do,there is natural tendency to change the word order in some sentences to emphasize the first word better.

Other Turkish sweets are gantaif,hanum burek,the sweet drink serbet and many others with lots of syrup you probably do not know.
27 May 2008 #226
Most EU countries have negative population growth.Negative population growth is correlated with higher levels of economic development.

I think EU countries including Greece must not be happy with this. Their population is not only decreasing but also getting older.

Human force will always be a production factor and population is at least shows growth potantial of a country. China, Russia, India, Brazil are not economically strong. But they have the potantial of being ''super power'' in the future because of their size and human force.

I am sorry for you but you have to take Turkey into consideration from that point of view.

EU membership effort of Turkey doesn't mean this is our single solution. You will see the power of Turks in not more than 30 years without EU. Our economy is very dinamic, there is sectoral variety, industry is developing and we don't depend on tourism only.

Turks and Greeks have charming histories. I don't understand your hatred. I look at the Greek people with sympathy.
Marek 4 | 867
27 May 2008 #227
..and, Southern, you've forgotten my own favorite, 'lokum' or what we named 'Turkish Delight'!

Indeed, the Turks, much like the Slavs, have a much more flexible word order than English. Ashame that when writing in English, one should follow the stubbornly inflexible rules of a more fixed syntax than either Turkish or Common Slavic! -:)

Just a wee bit of advice.

I realize on the other hand that my errors in Polish are equally legion, and probably just as vexing.

Here's then to mutual learning!

We Germans also have a more open word placement than English:

-Meine Cousine wohnt in Magdeburg. My cousin lives in Magdeburg.)
-In Magdeburg wohnt meine Cousine. " " ".
-Wohnen tut meine Cousine in Magdeburg (.....arbeitet doch in einem Vorort)
The latter is correct, but considered by many DUDEN-grammarians as colloquial.

Each means the same thing, yet with only a nuanced difference.
southern 75 | 7,096
27 May 2008 #228
Yes,you seem to understand the differences in syntax order.Since you are German,a high IQ is presumed.
I think the English use other ways to express nuanced differences than word order.They do that by exploiting the double and triple meanings of words to which foreigners are not used.So we tend to use the words with accurate meanings and then try to emphasize or lower emphasis through syntax as we are used in our native languages.

German is extremely inflexible,there is one specific word for every meaning and this causes a lot of problems to foreigners who try to express themselves in German.It is like the classical Greek language where prefixes and complex words do the job.And in German as a well as in classical Greek the syntax is rather complicated in fact it is the same syntax.The difference is that ancient Greeks had understood this and tried to describe and explain the rules to barbarians while Germans do not seem to bother to do so for foreigners.

Naturally Greek language became gradually simplified by the time foreigners in Hellenistic wold(Syrians,Babylonians,Persians,Egyptians) started to use it.

Anyway.Today we have english language hegemony.(except France where they do not admit it).
King Sobieski 2 | 716
27 May 2008 #229
Australia is not the country of original Greek food.

thanks for the history lesson...i know Australia is not the country of original Greek food but with the highest population of Greeks outside of Athens in Melbourne i would like to think they brought some traditional food.

what is the difference between a gyros, souvlaki and Greek kebab?
osiol 55 | 3,922
27 May 2008 #230
This does look like the start of a joke.
Three Greeks walk into a bar. One has a gyros, another a souvlaki, and the last one a kebab.
They all left the pub again, because you only eat these things at the end of a night out.
Okay - not true. I like a kebab before I go out and then another one at the end.
Marek 4 | 867
28 May 2008 #231
' we use in our native languages.....'

But don't tell us which they are, Southern. -:)-:) LOL Keep us guessing!

Actually, I'm not really a native German by birth, merely by extraction. I am though completely bilingual in both German and English. Polish? Well, still a life-long intermediate. (If even that. -:) )

'...English hegemony.....!'

Really?? Pity then that it isn't treated with greater respect, even by non-Anglists such as yourself/yourselves. English: The universal language of eternal misunderstanding. ( be continued, the latter topic. I've oodles to say on it, as you could probably tell already.)

Puzzy 1 | 150
28 May 2008 #232
What do Poles think about Turks?

- I think: great people, almost without exception friendly towards us, Poles. God bless them.
Marek 4 | 867
28 May 2008 #233

I am such a person. Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła!
southern 75 | 7,096
28 May 2008 #234
what is the difference between a gyros, souvlaki and greek kebab?

They are completely different things.
Gyros-pieces of pork or pork with lamb or chcken which are derived from a big cylindrical part that is roasted moving slowly around a pole with heat from every side.The pieces are taken by cutting the big part with special knife,then put into pita and served after adding within potatoes,tzatziki,onions,tomato(this is called complete pita-gyros) or any of these ingredients minus.(pita gyros without tzatziki for example if you want normal breath taste,to kiss for example a girl after eating the gyros for example).

Souvlaki-pieces of pork or chicken( if you say just souvlaki you mean pork,if you want chicken you have to say souvlaki chicken) which are around a small wooden pile that connects them and are roasted on above slowly burning pieces of coal.If roasted well it is delicious.

You can take simple souvlaki(just meat) with the small wooden part that connects the pieces.It is called kalamaki in Athens.You can also order that the wood is removed between the parts and the parts are put inside pita with tzatziki,onions,potatoes,tomato.(It is called souvlaki).Or you can order the meat without tzatziki.It is called children's souvlaki.

Or just 4 wooden parts with meat,potatoes,tzatziki,onions separate on a table.It is called souvlaki portion.

Kebab is made from beef mixed with pork roasted again on slowly burning pieces of coal.Its taste depends very much on the restaurant where it is produced.There are many types of kebab,some are very tasty.

There is also kokoretsi,which is very opular among some people and consists of intestines of lamb roasted again slowly connected by a metallic pole on slowly burning coal.It is difficult to make it because you have to constantly move the pole in circular movement.Its taste also depends on the restaurant where it is produced and a lot of people like it,others do not like it while everyone likes souvlaki.

There are more kinds of meat roasted like kontosouvli which is pieces of lamb connected on a pole roasted slowly again and paidakia which are lamb fillets roasted or grilled etc.
Marek 4 | 867
28 May 2008 #235
For whatsoever it's worth, I've always preferred Turkish over Greek cooking! Maybe this is due to my extensive experience with Turkish restaurants nearby where I live. Moussaka and Spanikopia, while often flavorful, seem heavier than Turkish dishes prepared with joghurt, goat's milk etc.
Puzzy 1 | 150
28 May 2008 #236

I am such a person. Jeszcze Polska nie

- I'm glad you are.

Nigdy nie zginie.

Lukasz 49 | 1,746
29 May 2008 #237
We can talk about history but in present time Turks are ok.

I have checked data about Germany. 13 % of Germans are imigrants 40% of kids in big cities are imigrants kids. Just think what will happen when this kids will start making kids...

How Germany deals with its minorities is a mounting preoccupation for its leaders. In cities with more than 200,000 inhabitants 45% of children under 15 have a "migration background", meaning either that they immigrated themselves or have parents or grandparents who did.

She started DeuKische Generation to persuade Germans that Turks could be as German as anyone, and to push Turks to embrace the language and norms of their adoptive country. "Germans think we'll leave, but I'm mainly German," she insists in Hochdeutsch as mellifluous as anyone's. Astonishingly poised for a 19-year-old, she might just become the first German chancellor to boast a Turkish name.

Poland Italy and Spain strongly support Turkey.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
29 May 2008 #238
13 % of Germans are imigrants 40% of kids in big cities are imigrants kids. Just think what will happen when this kids will start making kids...

Look at Polands you really think you will spared from this?

Why is Poland supporting Turkey? Do you have an idea what masses of immigrants will mean to you?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
29 May 2008 #239
Maybe it is time to try to assimilate Turks ?
southern 75 | 7,096
29 May 2008 #240
to try to assimilate Turks ?

Mission impossible.Turks did not manage to be assimilated even in Balkans.

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