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Poles in the Napoleonic era


Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011 #211
The conslusion to that discussion was there was actually a part of Silesia that did not want to be a part of German and fought hard for it. Not at all comparable to the current 4% scattered throughout the entire region.
gumishu 11 | 5,629
5 May 2011 #212
Maybe because it's one set of rights for Poles but another one for Germans...I like to point out this double standard whenever I can! :)

you can own a business in Poland even a house in Poland - is that not enough?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 May 2011 #213
The conslusion to that discussion was there was actually a part of Silesia that did not want to be a part of German and fought hard for it.

Problem was it wasn't a "part" but a lose collection of farms and several villages around the urban centres which were predominantly German.

But they wanted those too in Poland! After all Warsaw had not much use for the farmlands, it wanted the modern towns, the modern infrastructure, the modern schools and universities, the rich coal fields...
gumishu 11 | 5,629
5 May 2011 #214
Problem was it wasn't a "part" but a lose collection of farms and several villages around the urban centres which were predominantly German.

so how come there were areas that had Polish majority there? how many villages you have to cluster to outweigh a major city??
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011 #215
Problem was it wasn't a "part" but a lose collection of farms and several villages around the urban centres which were predominantly German.

Yes, and farmers from the most urbanistic region in the radius of 500km won against industrialised and more numerous city dwellers. I mean, come on. Inhabitants of the eastern part of Upper Silesia were Poles and wanted to join newly created fatherland, I think you should deal with it and move on.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 May 2011 #216
how many villages you have to cluster to outweigh a major city??

That was the problem...

won against industrialised and more numerous city dwellers.

won?

I think you should deal with it and move on.

I have moved on...I just will chime in whenever german history is being downtalked and denied in those lands.
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011 #217
won?

Won as in captured and managed to secure the territory until truce. And the partisans were fighting not against other Silesians, but against regular German army (however crippled it was at the time). It's time to move on.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 May 2011 #218
Won as in captured and managed to secure the territory until truce.

And the majority of the Germans living there?

You know, that's another fact to compare between "mean" Prussia and cool Poland. Under Prussia Poles grew, expanded and flourished...und polish rule the Germans...well...got ethnically cleansed, centuries of history vanished, destroyed, denied..till today!
gumishu 11 | 5,629
5 May 2011 #219
I have moved on...I just will chime in whenever german history is being downtalked and denied in those lands.

well, it was a Polish mistake to propose it, but the plebiscite included emigrees from the area to central Germany - almost all of them voted for Germany

between 1895 and 1919 335 thousand Germans settled in the area (from other regions of Germany) - they were either economic immigrants or state officials (they mostly settled in the cities I presume) - in this sense they wouldn't be called ethnic minority in Germany now - would they??

large part of those who voted for Germany were not German nationals (their mother tongue was not German but Slavic) - they simply did not identify with the Polish statehood (never knew any etc etc) and perhaps even Polishness for various reasons (though their speech was actually a Polish dialect) - this is shown anectodically in stories where brothers were fighting opposite sites in the "Silesian Uprisings"

the plebiscite area was under German admnistration and German police and para-military organizations were present
Nathan 18 | 1,363
5 May 2011 #220
I found a funny incident from the Napoleonic times:

When Polish rebels briefly took control of Lviv in 1809, they demanded that the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Anton Anhelovych, have his Church substitute Napoleon's name in the Divine Liturgy for that of Austrian Emperor Francis II. He refused, and was imprisoned by the Poles. When the Austrians retook control over the city, Anhelovych was awarded the cross of Leopold by the Emperor.[5]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church
:)
Ironside 50 | 10,907
5 May 2011 #221
I found a funny incident from the Napoleonic times:

a good German dog - yes very funny:)
Nathan 18 | 1,363
5 May 2011 #222
yes very funny:)

We love our Francis ll :)
Ziemowit 13 | 4,235
5 May 2011 #223
These districts in Lower Silesia were mostly close to Upper Silesia or the Polish border and hosted Polish linguistic enclaves. That's nothing new. But even there Poles were a minority. Only in some villages they formed a majority

If it were as you say, Frederic the Great who was once complimented by Adolf Hitler as "the first Nazi on a king's throne", would not resort to such drastic measures in his decree as 'throwing out teachers of their posts if they don't manage to master German within one year' (!). If the said areas were only minor "Polish linguistic enclaves", as you call it, the monarch nicknamed "the great" by his countrymen would have surely let these Polish linguistic enclaves inside the ocean of the German language die out without bothering about issuing a special decree against them.

Also, contrary to what you say, many of the Kreises enlisted in Frederic's decree were quite far off Upper Silesa or the then Polish border. What's more, the king doesn't list Kreises south-east of the Oppeln Kreis which are precisely the areas bordering the Polish frontier.
Palivec - | 380
6 May 2011 #224
The general problem is that in Poland quotes of German politicians and rulers are frequently seen out of context to prove a point. Frederick II was probably the Prussian king who cared the least about such things as nationality. He spoke bad German... I think he actually spoke German only to his horses, he had a low opinion of Germans, he didn't care about religions. His entire mindset was practical and directed to raise Prussias standing. For instance, his attitude towards Jews was strictly practical. He supported them in one area to promote trade, and tried to limit their influence in other areas where the Jews dominated business.

I'm sure the quote about Polish teachers has a completely different background, especially since he promoted the settling of Poles and Czechs in other parts of Silesia.


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