Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians)

No need to be sorry ;) ;)

I meant as a military power, Sok. They had the capacity to contain Germany and defeat her early days. It was just a bad reading of intent but hindsight is 20/20.

Well, history would now write about Poland the agressor...;)
And a victorious Germany would probably allowed to act like later Sovietrussia in Poland...no win situation me thinks!

It would appear to be that way. I only meant that they had the military might to take on Germany and comfortably win in 1933/34. Poland would only have needed to establish due cause, BB. I don't know about the Polish foreign office at that time but the British had swathes of evidence on potentially harmful actions of Hitler but, being British and selfish, continued down the path of trade and further profiteering.

A costly mistake as we now know.

Doubtful,
Germany had still much more people, and what would a win include? In Berlin in one week and then???
Occupying a country much more populous? With a much greater industrial base? You don't think things through Seanie...

In 33/34 and later Hitler Germany had still alot of admirers in Europe and elsewhere...he "got things done", got Germany back on track again (or however you want to call it).

A win would constitute a surrender. I know what you mean and I have thought it through. A surrender would come quickly when stormed. Morale in Germany was high, yes, but you were at such a level of unpreparedness that Hitler's bluff would have been called. Hitler knew the gamble he was taking and it worked.

Hitler was effective in what he did, that's for sure. We are both critics of his but agree on that. However, he wasn't a miracle worker ;) ;)

You think there would be a surrender??? When? Why? Polish troops didn't had the capacity to occupy the whole of Germany (if lucky the stretch from Warsaw to Berlin). But that's about it...

There would be no surrender! ;)

Well, I completely disagree with the time frame as proposed by Sok but it would have come sooner or later. I don't have a precise date ;) ;)

I could have foreseen a bloodbath!
The population argument doesn't hold any grounds! Just think of 1921...
But the industrial doesn't hold any grounds either. I hope you know that German factories were mostly based to make civilian stuff? Compared to Soviet union (ww2) Soviet made tons of military equipment compared to civilian stuff (that's why land-Leese was so helpful)

Although BB don't you consider a coup de atentat or something from the officers? Then they signing a peace treaty? Piłsudski would mostly only have wanted the removal of the Nazis? (and maybe a few meters of land?) although I remember him not beeing very keen on having border troubles with the Germans in 1918

Well, a coup de tat (?) as your country is attacked???

And yes, population and industrial base matter....Maybe Poles would get initially inside Germany abit but the shock would wear off soon and then...I can't see an easy short win for Poland, really not!

And the longtime aftermath would be interesting to say at least, for both countries...Hitler gaining the victim status, Poland the agressor...every dead german child on the way will be shown in the media etc...

Taking over the capitol wouldn't be a bit
remember we are talking 1933/1934 here
400.000+ Polish soldiers vs max 100.000 German soldiers
If the Polish army was prepared heck maybe even 1 mill troops

That many troops can enter deeeeeep into Germany at that time no?


You sure that if Poland drove some propaganda: Freie Bavarian! Freie Bavarasche stadt!
Katolikken! Foreenen sie! (no idea what unite is in German)

Maybe some Germans would like to have some help from Poland thanks to the finincial crisis? hmm?

Although patriotism would appear I am sure but there were still tensions in Germany no?
Also 1 very important thing, how long would it take to arm themselfs? To 1 million troops? Also what would U.K and France do if they armed themselves while Polish troops were in Germany? They could maybe declared war? That would force the German high command to send troops towards France too?

I wouldn't like to be German staff in 1934 if Germany got attacked by Poland so to say.

Also going back to the coup de etat, didn't Stauffenberg do something while holy Germany was being invaded so to speak? ;)

We should play that out some time Gruni! ;)

Germany was the Aggressor and even the most loyal officers thought Hitler was becoming mad...

But to attack a helpless country which did nothing to deserve it (till then) would make us to the new "Poles" and you to the new "Germany"! ;)

Well if you had tried out Supermacy1914.com we could maybe had done that. But you didn't want to join my world conquest game:

polishforums.com/off-topic-lounge-47/world-conquest-game-37638

Or I can make a theory test! :o


Don't you remember that Germans were filled with Germany got attacked let's attack Poland?
Even then there were ppl who didn't want to join the army. Ive seen some revolts of civilians against recruitment centers in 1939 (on a video) I think it was youtube. It was long time ago so I can't remember the title unfortunately

And Poles would attack Germany just like that?

I sincerely hope not! There is no reason to squander the good work that has gone into keeping peace. Merkel and Tusk are close enough.

Poles made uprisings just like that, Poles never needed any excuse to do anything their acts are always justified :)

I found this an extremely interesting history article of how one family escaped death.
msn.com/en-us/news/world/caught-between-hitlers-troops-and-stalins-how-one-family-escaped/ar-BB13PH6m?li=BBnb7Kz

Some Russian historians claim that during Polish-Ukrainian war of 1918-1919 Polish troops (under head of Pilsudski) bombarded peaceful Ukrainian population with artillery and killed thousands of people just as an act of intimidation. If you have doubts in it I will try to gather more info on that. It was Pilsudski who started this war with Ukraine under excuse of Polish minority rights protection. But likely it was just an excuse as to a larger extent Poles hadn't been oppressed in Ukraine just for been Poles. In reality Pilsudski just wanted to expand Polish territory for the account of weaker and newborn Ukraine and reinstate the Greater Poland from "Sea to Sea". He dreamt even of Kiev and briefly captured it, but was forced left it to Ukrainians as he needed their support against the Bolsheviks. This war costed tens of thousands of lives to Ukrainians and later they were oppressed in Poland quite a lot.

I do have doubts because I have never heard of mass civilian attrocities from either side in this war

@Vlad1234
'Russian historians' :)
During the Kiev Offensive Poles and Ukrainians fought against the bolsheviks.

LOL!!
A contradiction in terms.... the words Russian and Historian can never be placed together.....
Russian and Propagandist works though :-)

On reflection, Serb and historian does not work either..... same as Russians..... liars.

For example in one of the Russian movies the memories of Polish foreign minister Józef Beck are mentioned who wrote to his father that while he participated in military operations against the "Sovietized Ukraine" at the end of 1918 they burned down everything, killed civilians and bombarded defenseless cities with artillery.

youtu.be/AV4w4r5p2NA

What ?came again, Seriously A Russian has an issue with it? Ah is that because is not Russia hence it is bad. Expand how? That all was Poland's territory anyway. As is Smolensk. Expanding would be taking Kharkov or Donbas.


Sure a legitimate geopolitical goal in this region. By doing that pushing Russia from its dominate position in this part of the world and delegating it to be a third rate power in need on allies to defend against China.

Ukrainians were never a political factor before 1991.

I thought this thread is not about an issues, but about historic facts and Pilsudski in particular.

You should be talking about facts rather than your particular view on them. For JP and his generation Poland with border from before 1772 wasn't an expansion but a legitimate claim.

No Smoleńsk within those borders though.

Good knowledge of history is a path to mutual forgiveness between Poles and Ukrainians and a path to avoid one-sided blaming.

I don't care. In my view we are talking about some fraction Ukrainians in western parts of today Ukraine. Those three to four millions can just go F themslefses for what I care. Might be easier to kick them out to the outer space where they belong. There are some demagogues in Kiev who are trying to spread some sick ideology onto general population. As for the rest politicks as usual.

Ironside:::

Did you know that during the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth, Ukrainians would Polanify themselves by learning to speak Polish?

The idea of Poland being the center of Europe is frightening to some. This is why when Stalin and his pinko communist buddy Hitler both claimed sovereignty over Poland and the Baltic states, the United States and the UK said nothing and did nothing to contradict. That is what started WW2 Germany and USSR could not agree over Poland.

There also was a war in Lithuania that went into the 50s, some people really did not want to ruled over by Stalin.

Converting to Roman Catholicism was a larger cultural obstacle. However bydlo (the cattle) is always treated like bydlo whatever language it speaks and in whichever church it goes to pray...

Well, its not the problem. Real question is what one and his own civilization gains from expansion.