Can a nation totally change its characteristics and national character throughout history?

An interesting historical question.

The question ocurred to me after reading what Bobko wrote in another thread about the Russian army. Namely...


... and it is this "basically, nobody but Ukrainians can resist them" bit that got me thinking.

Can a nation change totally in a rather short time of, let's say for example, 70-80 years? Are Germans still the same orderly, obedient and organised Germans that they were in the past? Are Finns the same distant, somewhat cold, consistent people that they used to be? Is Italian character basically the same that it was in the past? You get my drift.

Current Ukrainian soldiers are direct descendants of OUN/UPA "heroes". Admittedly, they might not (and, hopefully, do not) share their grandfathers' genocidal ideologies but in terms of language, culture, genetics etc. they are basically the same nation, the same people.

As we remember from history, Banderist forces were rather reluctant to fight anything more dangerous than a mother with her small children and their teddy bear. It happened sometimes, but the cases were few and far between. UPA units preferred, by and large, to conduct a withdrawal operation at the very sight of enemy combat forces (whether it was Soviet Army, Home Army or Polish Army). In general, they were really shining only when deployed against civilians. You catch my drift.

However, these days, when - with the help of most of civilised world - they face Russian invasion, we hear that they are the only ones in the Milky Way (and possibly beyond) who could ever face Russians. As a member of a nation that actually faced Russians in history (sometimes even with success) I find this is extremely fascinating, and I feel that it can lead me to only two conclusions...

a) the descendants of banderists somehow magically turned into people of incredible bravery, honour and fighting spirit
b) they are still basically the same people culturally and genetically as their UPA grandfathers, but it is Russians who are making a complete and utter mess of their invasion

... tertium non datur, as a famous ancient philosopher, Myhailo of Kievan Rus, used to say.

Which option, dear PF members, do you think is more likely to be true: a or b? Cast your votes.

It's totally untrue - this bunch of stumbling drunk farm boys was easily defeated by Japan, Poland, Finland, the WW1 Germans, Afghans and a long list of others

The only thing hard in Udmurtia is their bread 6 hours after they picked it up in one of those crappy supermarkets from Russell's videos

@cms neuf

Erm... so, may I assume that you vote for option b?

neither, most of the Ukrainians have nothing to do with Banderites when it comes to family ties, they have just been fed that ideology since the 90s'.

Hmm. Some estimations have UPA numbers even at 200,000 soldiers. They must have come from somewhere. They were not Eskimos nor Navaho Indians - they were Ukrainians, of various social strata and professions. You know what they say, Iron: if it walks like a Ukrainian, and if it talks like a Ukrainian, well...

@Torq
You also have to remember that most of their members (I see it as reflected in Ukrainian society) affiliated UPA and UPA membership with being anti-Soviet and anti-Russian and were ignorant of atrocities performed against minorities and downplay it as they deem it to be propaganda or irrelevant in the face of Russian threat to their lives.

I honestly think most of UPA did not know of UPA ideology as it wasn't main reason to join it, not to mention education level at that time as well.

Besides, modern Ukraine has a lot of ex-Soviet knowledge, gear and know how which UPA did not have in ww2. There is a obvious difference

Look that is my take on the issue that the majority of today's Ukrainians never have any connection to Banderisteis, it is only they were infected with its legend later on. That is why I find it so stupid. All that situation.

As to where from, from our inbreed Galicja people, jealous illiterate a-holes, there about four to five million and from them those banderites and SS Galitzen found volunteers. Before the war, there were about 40 million Ukrainians so they are and were minorities there when it came to family connections.

OK, very well. So be it.

But at least you will agree that the Azov Batallion (or Regiment or whatever) was not only infected with the ideology but actually had many direct descendants of banderites in their ranks, and their put up a rather good fight against the Russians in Mariupol. So, what's the story? Did they magically change their genes, or - as Grunni says - have better equipment and know how, or is it Russians doing a sh*tty job of the invasion?

My estimate would be: 10% it's the matter of equipment, training and huge foreign support and 90% the matter of Russians botching the job.

That's why I consider all this "Ukrainians are the best fighters in the Virgo Supercluster", "nobody can stop us in the entire Laniakea but Myhailo and Mykola" etc. etc. so fvcking annoying. :-/

Bandera is purposeful fussian psy op.... a minor figure never involved in any government and never actually involved in the abominations credited to him.....

Making a big deal about him is a way of saying "I believe any old crap russia says and will happily be jerked around by russian propaganda"

In the meantime Ukraine less far right representation in parliament than most countries.....

russia had/has many more actual real neo-nazis than Ukraine and ignoring that in order to moan about 'Banderites' is kind of pathetic.... Don't be pathetic!

As we are talking mainly about stereotypes and broad generalizations, of course they/a people can change.....if they were ever true!

@Torq

Banderopithecus Troglodytus and Homo Sapiens Sapiens is not the same thing.

You are correct, UPA were a collection of murderous cowards grown in an Austrian lab called Galicia. They remain cowards and untermenschen to this day.

However, the Ukrainians that could and can fight almost all inevitably came from the Left Bank of the Dnieper. Right now, the hardened core that is resisting us is mostly guys that can only speak Russian and are mostly from Donetsk, Kherson, Odessa, and Dnipropetrovsk oblasts. The Azov guys, which are the most capable unit Ukraine has - had their home base in Mariupol.

Russian state propaganda is attempting to use this against Ukraine, and in the same way Ukraine is trying to use it against us.

1) Russian Propaganda - "Kiev is using the war to exterminate its Russian population. Recruitment disproportionately happens in the South and East. Western Ukrainians can't be bothered to fight this war until it reaches Lvov. By that time all the Russian speakers will be dead. Stop fighting in this brotherly war."

2) Ukrainian Propaganda - "Ukrainian fascism is a figment of the Russian imagination. Most of the men fighting the Russian army, know no language other than Russian. Yet even so, they feel it is their duty to take up arms against Russia."

So when I say that the only people that can resist Russia are Ukrainians, I really mean that the only people that can resist Russia are other Russians.

Similarly, all Poles are direct descendants of antisemite murderers who burnt Jews alive in barns during WW2 with Nazi German happy approval . And did other nasty things to them.

And we can say such stupidites about any nation.


I choose option X which means you didn`t think the topic over, it is obvious.

Azov IS made up of numerous Nazis. Unfortunately, however, there are very few of them that are descendants of Banderists.

Like I said, the Azov guys are all from Donetsk and Mariupol and nearby areas.

That's one reason they fought to the death in Mariupol. It's their home town. I can't imagine some Mykola from Zakarpatia doing a last stand in Azovstal.

Their origin was as the Ultras of Shakhtar Donetsk. Then, when the war started in 2014, skinheads ended up being the first to voluntary enlist.

Not only that but they were always miracle workers who managed to put 1500 people into a small wooden shack. World record.

I was right mentioning stupidities. Stupid Torq created another thread about Ukraine although there are already plenty of them. The only difference is that this one is camouflaged under a sophisticated name.


Firstly, not so small.

Secondly, not a shack but a barn.

Stop twisting. If you don`t like what I wrote about Polish antisemitic murderers, go and complain to Torq. I only followed his way of thinking.

I bloody hate them, God forgive me... :-/


All right. It is now obvious to me that I misunderstood your post.


Hey, it's only an internet board thread, not an academic dissertation - it doesn't have to be logically impregnable. I will admit that maybe (just maybe) I am somewhat prejudiced against Ukrainians. Sometimes I wish I could just forget, forgive and move on. But it's easier said than done. :(

Yes, we know. Don`t worry, I am still here to swing the pendulum back. :):):)

UPA murdered Poles who were colonisers and occupiers of Ukrainian lands.
Similarly, Poles murdered Russians who occupied Poland in the past. And today we erect monuments to cherish the memory of our heroes.
Ukrainians do the same.

Live with it.

You managed with Germans, didn't you? Abit at least?

So how big it was?

Bigger than your shack. Ha!

Not really.

They didn't murder the politicians who made decisions or generals/soldiers who occupied their lands. They murdered mostly peasants, common villagers, women, children, the elderly.

So... you don't know how big it was, are you sure it was a barn and not a shack? Since you have been caught lying and twisting... just leave! or live in shame.,


Don't listen to pawian nonsense he doesn't know anything.

Yes, BB, but Germans broke up with their past. German politicians don't have Hitler's portraits in their offices, there are no monuments of Himmler and there are no Adolf Eichmann Stadiums in Germany. There are no mass graves with Polish citizens in Germany, and German authorities refusing them to be properly buried. See the difference?

Wrong!!!! Read who colonised Ukrainian lands in the interwar period. Then come back and change your statement.

PS. We don`t have time to waste., I will tell you - most Polish colonisers before the WW2 were former soldiers who were granted plots of arable land in Ukraine as a reward for their patriotic service.

Now, what do you think, without googling, what was local Ukrainians` attitude to that type of colonisation??? :):):):)


Yes!!! Exactly.


While in Poland we have monuments to cursed soldiers who murdered Jews and other innocent people. And???

@pawian

I will check it later but I really don't think that most peasants murdered in Volhyn were former soldiers (definitely not women and children). You are justifying beastly genocide with politics which is repulsive in itself.

Besides, which country exactly were those "soldiers" "colonising"? When was there ever anything resembling an independent Ukrainian state for any significant period of time?

When did the heroic baderites or their ancestors manage to win independence from Poland, Russia, Austro-Hungary or whomever?

You are once again twisting facts and engaging in cheap sophistry to justify the unjustifiable. Sorry.

Yes, sorry that you don`t see all the wrongs and injustice which Poles did to Ukrainians during their colonisation.

Moralność Kalego....

I see you are catching uglily at a razor now. It doesn`t matter there wasn`t an independent Ukraine state. There wasn`t coz Poles had suppressed it in 1920s and earlier, in the 17th century. But there were still millions of Ukrainians living in the area who felt that Poles were robbing them of their stateless but still national heritage.

I don`t mind. Decent posters and readers will. :):):)

In my opinion, a nation's national characteristics have been shaped by their history. A seemingly obvious
statement, yet one which bears truth if we examine the background of supposed "national character".

Take the much written about German national character. If there is likewise an American, French or Italian
character, to what extent have these characteristics been formed by historical circumstances.

What is today a united, in fact re-united, Germany, was of course long a mere amalgam of nearly independent
dukedoms, dutchies, and heaven knows what else, each subsumed by a local reigning authority. Although
called after Charlemagne aka "Karl der Grosse", The Holy Roman Empire (minus Jacob Burkhardt's famous quip),
it soon fell victim to centuries of plague, warfare along with devastating famine, turning the German people
into a nation stamped by deep cynicism and of course both a fear simultaneously an inbred obedience to authority!

Such is not in fact a facile stereotype, but a reality which fueled and sustained Hitler's stranglehold grip on the Germans
for twelve years.

Indeed, I can easily confirm that certain characteristics associated with the Germans remain very much alive, e.g. a tendency
towards punctuality and a cultivated degree of organization, ensuring that general daily routines run smoothly.

Any characteristic may be deemed overwhelmingly positive or negative as anything in extremis is questionable.