Polish military in 1939 in pictures.

19 Oct 2009 #61

the Vis (Polish designation pistolet wz. 35 Vis, German designation 9 mm Pistole 35(p), often called incorrectly Radom in English sources) is a 9 mm caliber, single-action, semi-automatic pistol. Originally designed by Piotr Wilniewczyc and Jan Skrzypinski in 1930 at the Fabryka Broni (Weapon Factory) in Radom under Director Kazimierz Rawicz-Oldakowski, it was adopted in 1935 as the standard handgun of the Polish Army. Considered by many to be one of the finest handguns ever produced, it is highly prized among collectors of firearms.

But, was just another copy!, The design was generally based on American firearms inventor John Browning's Colt M1911A1, operating on the short-recoil principle, with the barrel being cammed down and away from the locking lugs in the slide. Unlike M1911, the barrel was not cammed by a link, but by a ledge of sorts, which contacts a portion of the barrel and forces it down as it is moved rearward with the slide by the recoil force, similarly as in Browning's new FN HP pistol.

Oh, I can't wait to see the Nasty thing's that "Someone" will say!, LOL!.

OP Sokrates 8 | 3335

20 Oct 2009 #62

But, was just another copy!, The design was generally based on American firearms inventor John Browning's Colt M1911A1,

Thats the only post in which you are right buddy, in virtually every other post you managed to post what amounts to loads of made up bollocks, but ViS was indeed based on Browning, though again not copied.

I'm not trying to glorify Poland but we've had enough of our own inventions, our own tanks, our own autocannons, our own computers (which were copied by US, in the 30s Poland was THE most advanced in computing science, everything you use today in a computer was at one point invented perfected or dabbled in by a Pole, we managed to advance computing science farther then anyone :) ) our own machineguns, automatic rifles, scopes, but yeah ViS was based on a Browning, good job you got something right for the first time in how many posts?:)

mets2redsox0 - | 40

20 Oct 2009 #63

our own machineguns, automatic rifles

here you go again!!

My Mother, use to say, "You can Drag a Horse to water, but, you can't make him Drink!", my mom was 100% Lithuanian, and I am not saying America is better then Poland, or anything like that, but, I have been dealing in Automatic Weapon's for almost Thirty Year's!, and I know a little bit about the Subject!, oh, and I forgot to add the name's of the Mauser's to my list of the Most important people in Firearms History!.

the Most important people in Post 1850 Firearm's Design, are Sam Colt, Benjamin Herny, John Browning, John Thompson, Hiram Maxim, Dr. Richard J. Gatling, Carl Walther, the Peter Masuer, Paul Mauser and John Garand, and neither Walther or Garand were American's or the Mauser's!.

OP Sokrates 8 | 3335

20 Oct 2009 #64

the Karabin wz.98a (Kb wz.98a) - (pl. rifle model 98a), Polish bolt-action rifle based on the German Gewehr 98. GERMAN!, not Polish!.

Of course, Poles used American hmgs, German bolt action rifles and American pistoles, however these were not copied because indigenous designs did not exist but because full replacement was unfeasable due to financial issues.

On the other hand there's an automatic rifle, a smg, an lmg, artillery, heavy and light tranport trucks, self propelled artillery, tanks and planes all indigenous Polish production (you can find their pictueres here) and all designs superior to what was used in America at the time :)

mets2redsox0 - | 40

20 Oct 2009 #65

unfeasable due to financial issues

is that why?, the Copied Browning Model of 1917 was an unlicensed copy??, I bet no Royalty's were paid to John Browning or the U.S. Government, were they??.

On the other hand there's an automatic rifle, a smg, an lmg,

what Model's are you talking about?, that were "Issued", not Just Prototype's, but, "Issued" Military Weapon's??.

Pistolet maszynowy wz.39 Mors (Mors is Latin for death, Polish for walrus) was a Polish submachine gun designed by Piotr Wilniewczyc and Jan Skrzypiński between 1936 and 1938. It was to have become the standard submachine gun of the Polish Army some time in the 1940s. However, its production was halted by the 1939 invasion of Poland and World War II.

The design was generally modelled after the German ERMA EMP-35. Common feature of both was a wooden butt and forward pistol grip, most noticeable difference was magazine sticking downwards in Mors instead of to the left side.

self.gutenberg.org/articles/pistolet_maszynowy_mors_wz._39

And you know, what Really makes me Sick to think, when the Polish Army gave-up to the Germans and the Russians, they give them BAR's, they (the Polish Army) should have Destroyed the BAR's before Giving-up!, Gezzs!.

During the Polish Defensive War of 1939, the rkm wz. 1928 was the standard LMG used by all Polish infantry units. The German Wehrmacht captured a number of Polish-made Browning guns and used them until the end of World War II under the designation of lMG 28 (p). A number was also seized by the Red Army and used during the war.

OP Sokrates 8 | 3335

20 Oct 2009 #66

what Model's are you talking about?, that were "Issued", not Just Prototype's, but, "Issued" Military Weapon's??.

Absolutely

The design was generally modelled after the German ERMA EMP-35

Wow so you werent ignorant all that time, you simply resort to lying, can i ask for a source?

militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=32
Mors had nothing to do with EMP-35, thats your fifth post in which you are cought lying, the design was fully indigenous.

And you know, what Really makes me Sick to think, when the Polish Army gave-up to the Germans and the Russians, they give them BAR's, they (the Polish Army) should have Destroyed the BAR's before Giving-up!, Gezzs!.

Both armies had better designs then the BAR by that time, in fact Poles had a better indigenous automatic rifle as well (see previous pictures and comments).

During the Polish Defensive War of 1939, the rkm wz. 1928

Yet another lie on your part, by 1939 Poles had a domestic design far superior to BAR (wz 38) which has again been posted in this topic, a fully domestic design, lighter, more accurate and with a faster firing rate then BAR, before you try to humiliate yourself with another unbased claim, no it was not based off BAR or any other rifle :))

Any other lies and misconsceptions of yours you wish to to have debunked?:)

is that why?, the Copied Browning Model of 1917 was an unlicensed copy??, I bet no Royalty's were paid to John Browning or the U.S. Government, were they??.

Everything was legal, no patent was done in Poland therefore no license was needed but of course you fails to mention it since the truth would not fit your biased prejudiced view :)

mets2redsox0 - | 40

20 Oct 2009 #67

Everything was legal, no patent was done in Poland therefore no license was needed

Wrong again!,

Only three companies took part in the competition: the American Browning company with the Browning M1917, a Czechoslovakian-built copy of Schwarzlose M.7/12 (Schwarzlose-Janeèek vz.07/12/27) and the British Vickers company with .303 Vickers. All initial tests were won by Browning. The tests were repeated in 1928, and again the American weapon proved to be the best. Thus the Polish ministry decided to purchase a license. However, it turned out that neither the Colt company nor its European representative, the Belgian company FN, had patented the design in Poland. In addition, the documentation of a recently-purchased license for Browning Automatic Rifle of the same designer was faulty. Because of that, the Polish ministry decided to order the preparation of a local version of the Browning M1917. that means, NO Royalty's were paid to John Browning or the U.S. Government!.

in fact Poles had a better indigenous automatic rifle

what make and model?, Not the Prototype's!,

by 1939 Poles had a domestic design far superior to BAR (wz 38)

then it should be easy for you to name the make and model of the "Issued" not the Prototype's!, it's time for you, "to put your money where your Big Mouth is!"

You are so full of bad information, did you use to work for the Russian's?, or are You Russian?, my mon never Trusted the Russians nor do I.

militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=32
Mors had nothing to do with EMP-35, thats your fifth post in which you are cought lying, the design was fully indigenous.

I looked at that link, which takes you to the Prototype Polish SMG, it was never Issued, so, since, there is only two or three of them in the world today, I have never seen one in person, nor have I ever taken one apart!, after looking at that websight, I have to say, that The Barrel, Bolt, Upper Receiver / Receiver Tube, Cocking Handle, Magazine Housing all look like the Emma EMP-35's, the German MP-28's or the British Lanchester Mk I's, where the Trigger Group, Stock, Triggerguard all look like a Model 50 Reising's, nothing new there either!, besides, it was only a Prototype!, it was never "Issued!".

Polish automatic rifle, Germans deny copying Gewehr-43 after it despite the guns being so similar.

This was nothing more then a Prototype!, only a few were made, and only one or two are left in the world today!, it was based on the Browning BAR Machinegun, just look at the line's, it has the Classic Browning Humpback Design, just like the Browning "BAR Machinegun", the Browning A-5 Shotgun and the Browning Semi-Auto Sporting Bar Rifle!.

OP Sokrates 8 | 3335

20 Oct 2009 #68

I looked at that link, which takes you to the Prototype Polish SMG, it was never Issued,

Yawn, yet another lie on your part, yes it was issued :)

have to say, that The Barrel, Bolt, Upper Receiver / Receiver Tube, Cocking Handle, Magazine Housing all look like the Emma EMP-35's

Ah so your entire post was based on that it looked like, right that explains a lot right there :)

it was never "Issued!".

Again wrong, 50 were issued, further 400 were produced but not distributed, stop grasping at straws, when we copied something we did but our lmgs, smgs and automatic rifles were completely domestic produce (except for the BARS of course).

what make and model?, Not the Prototype's!,

Yup, both the automatic wz30 and Mors smg were issued, 50 Mors and several hundred to a one thousand wz 38

Only three companies took part in the competition: the American Browning company with the Browning M1917, a Czechoslovakian-built copy of Schwarzlose M.7/12

You need to decide, first you're talking about a BAR which was copied legally because US failed to secure its license in Poland and was a light machinegun and now you're talking about the purchase of the heavy machinegun license which conversly was also legal.

Its not our fault that you failed to secure patent laws in Poland, we're not charity to pay for something we dont legaly have to and everything was done completely legally.

mets2redsox0 - | 40

20 Oct 2009 #69

Yawn, yet another lie on your part, yes it was issued :)

what 50?. so, you say?, 50 Prototype's?, show me one in person, did you ever shoot one?, mister know it all!.

Ah so your entire post was based on that it looked like, right that explains a lot right there :)

it's hard to see something in person, when there are only two or three of the Prototype's of the SMG left in the world!.

Yup, both the automatic wz30 and Mors smg were issued, 50 Mors and several hundred to a one thousand wz 38

that's not enough to be anything more then just emergency issue of Prototype's!, gezzs!, get a life!.

the only, only technical or conceptual similarity between German Stg44 and M1 was that they used an intermiediate bullet,

what on god's green earth are you talking about here?, the U.S. M-1 Garand Service Rilfe was in 30/06 (7.62 x 63 mm), which is almost the same as 8mm Mauser (7.92x57mm), the MP-44 was in 8mm Kurz (7.92x33mm), which the Russian's Copied for the AKM-47, AK-47, Type 56 and the SKS's 7.62x39mm (which is a .303bore, not a .308 bore by the way!).

You know, only a very rude, demeaning and very, very condescending person, uses terms and words the way you do toward other member of "PF", Sokrates!.

OP Sokrates 8 | 3335

20 Oct 2009 #70

what 50?. so, you say?, 50 Prototype's?, show me one in person, did you ever shoot one?, mister know it all!.

The link i showed you and every other source you can find, they were used in combat, they were issued to soldiers.

it's hard to see something in person, when there are only two or three of the Prototype's of the SMG left in the world!.

The gun was being at an early stage of issue.

that's not enough to be anything more then just emergency issue of Prototype's!, gezzs!, get a life!.

A prototype is an original type, form, or instance of something serving as a typical example, basis, or standard for other things of the same category.

Thats according to wikipedia, just because both of the weapons have not been around long enough for larger numbers to be issued doesnt mean they're prototypes, both entered production and were issued, small numbers stem from the fact that they entered production stage respectively months and days before the war.

So by your logic rifles are similar because they use a similar caliber? Thats a pretty silly thing to say :)

You know, only a very rude, demeaning and very, very condescending person, uses terms and words the way you do toward other member of "PF", Sokrates!.

I'm sorry i just cope badly with stupidity, notice that i agreed with you when you finally (after five or six attempts) produced a Polish design based on American one but you're trying to attach this to every other design.

The fact is Poles designed both personal weapons and armor/mechanized vehicles that were head and shoulders above the contemporary German and Western design and matched only by the Russians, that Poland was pyss poor and had barely any factories to produce that stuff is another matter.

Goodnight.

mets2redsox0 - | 40

20 Oct 2009 #71

I'm not trying to glorify Poland but we've had enough of our own inventions,

our own computers (which were copied by US, in the 30s Poland was THE most advanced in computing science, everything you use today in a computer was at one point invented perfected or dabbled in by a Pole, we managed to advance computing science farther then anyone :) )

oh really now, are we dreaming or what??.

[i]During the first half of the 20th century, many scientific computing needs were met by increasingly sophisticated analog computers, which used a direct mechanical or electrical model of the problem as a basis for computation. However, these were not programmable and generally lacked the versatility and accuracy of modern digital computers.

Alan Turing is widely regarded to be the father of modern computer science. In 1936 Turing provided an influential formalisation of the concept of the algorithm and computation with the Turing machine. Of his role in the modern computer, Time Magazine in naming Turing one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century, states: "The fact remains that everyone who taps at a keyboard, opening a spreadsheet or a word-processing program, is working on an incarnation of a Turing machine." [10]

The fact is Poles designed both personal weapons and armor/mechanized vehicles that were head and shoulders above the contemporary German and Western design and matched only by the Russians, that Poland was pyss poor and had barely any factories to produce that stuff is another matter.

I am ONLY Talking about Small Arms here, not Half-Track's, Armored Car's or Tank's, but, just Small Arms, most of what the Polish Army was using in 1939 was either German (Masuer) or American (Browning) in design.

So by your logic rifles are similar because they use a similar caliber? Thats a pretty silly thing to say :)

you better go back and re-read your own posting, I was trying to make sense of you said, which is not always easy to do!,Sokrates: the only, only technical or conceptual similarity between German Stg44 and M1 was that they used an intermiediate bullet,

A prototype is an original type, form, or instance of something serving as a typical example, basis, or standard for other things of the same category.

since, I have Manufactured Firearm, let me explain to you, what the term, Prototype means, prototypes will be designed, constructed and tested as the final design emerges and is prepared for production. With rare exceptions, multiple iterations of prototypes are used to progressively refine the design. A common strategy is to design, test, evaluate and then modify the design based on analysis of the prototype. and 50 of a Prototype of a Submachinegun for Military use is very common, before you made Ten's of Thousand's of a SMG, you will make 50 to test in the field, that's still just a Prototype!.

You know, "PF" does not issue warning very often, in fact this was the first time I saw one like this one"Please refrain from insulting members, they are allowed to have their point of view in this discussion as well as you. If you can't discuss without using derogatory language, your best bet would be to give the thread a miss".

I had enjoyed reading your posting's, that was before you became very rude to me among other's, have you noticed, other's have stop posting on this thread?, did you wonder why?.

As someone who has dealt in Automatic Weapon's and have been a Small Arms Manufacturer for almost 30 years, I also have a passion for World History as well, being a Second Generation Irish and Lithuanian American, along with where I live, Stamford Connecticut which has a very large Polish Population, from Fresh of a "LOT" Flight to Pole's who are Daughter of the American Revolution (the DAR), so, I know about the Katyn Forest, Sobibor, the first German Enigma machine handed over to the British came from Poland, the fact that Free Polish Troop's were at Normandy on D-Day, and sorry to say they were also at the Bridge too far! (Arnhem, Monty's Operation Market Garden), along with Free Polish Fighter Squadron's flying P-51 Mustang's, and being half Lithuanian, I am a were of the Yalta betrayal!. and, I don't believe if it's American it's better, I am very open mind in General, when it comes to Small Arms, the British haven't done much, since the Lee Enfield Rifle!, the Russian's Steal from everyone else!, the French, well they are the French, enough said there!, besides, John Browning, the German's, Paul Masuer and Carl Walther are the best Designer's of small arms.

sjam 2 | 541

20 Oct 2009 #72

The link i showed you

Still waiting for your link to where I declared Poles ran concentration camps in Poland during WWII? Are you still having trouble finding such a statement from me, could it be that you know it doesn't exist?

And you say i am the liar—here is your opportunity to prove it—show me the link?

Your silence on this is deafening but not at all surprising. LOL.

Harry

20 Oct 2009 #73

I'm still waiting for the police to come and arrest me after Sokrates reported me for the serious crime of saying that Poles ran concentration camps before and after WWII. But then I'm also still waiting for the police to come and arrest me after z_dariusz reported me for the even more serious crime of saying that I'd like to buy his daughter a drink.

mets2redsox0 - | 40

20 Oct 2009 #74

(Sokrates:) And you say i am the liar

I'm still waiting for the police to come and arrest me after Sokrates reported me for the serious crime

My, My, My it look's like, I am not the only that dear Sokrates, has insulted or be mean and nasty too, am I?,

Ironside 50 | 12383

20 Oct 2009 #75

He was rude to me too! But I don't mind:)because I think he isn't nasty on purpose, He just can't help it!

Never the less Harry had it coming in my opinion - just to let you know:)

Harry

20 Oct 2009 #76

Never the less Harry had it coming in my opinion -

Debateable. But what is beyond any debate is that I'm still waiting for the police which Sokrates and z_dariusz repeatedly said they'd set upon me!

OP Sokrates 8 | 3335

20 Oct 2009 #77

since, I have Manufactured Firearm

The only thing you manufactured is kitted socks, the only way i'm associated with firearms were a few times on a firing range and my 10 months in the army and i still was able to point out your basic mistakes.

As for Poles who made advancements in computing science - Stanisław Ułam, Stefan Banach, Stanisław Mazur, Karol Borsuk and Antonii £omnicki, many of the computing processes used today have been perfected by Banach and Ułam.

By the way we kept the tradition, we're one of the top computing developers even today :)

Wroclaw 44 | 5359

20 Oct 2009 #78

reminder

all future posts in this thread (and any other) that break the 100 word copy/paste rule will end up in the bin

sjam 2 | 541

20 Oct 2009 #79

Sokrates, has insulted

What by a Polish Nazi-fascist ? Not me. He is more of insulting to his country and the millions of Poles who were victims of his fascist heroes and is by being a Polish fascist more anti-Polish than even me ;-))

Sokrates: Still waiting for your link to where I declared Poles ran concentration camps in Poland during WWII?

Again here is your opportunity to prove me the liar - show me the link?

Torq

20 Oct 2009 #80

As for Poles who made advancements in computing science - Stanisław Ułam, Stefan Banach, Stanisław Mazur, Karol Borsuk and Antonii £omnicki, many of the computing processes used today have been perfected by Banach and Ułam.

Let's not forget another great Polish mathematician Jan £ukasiewicz and his
contribution in the area of logic and informational technology.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_notation

(...)
The Polish logician Jan £ukasiewicz invented this notation around 1920 in order to simplify sentential logic. When Polish notation is used as a syntax for mathematical expressions by interpreters of programming languages, it is readily parsed into abstract syntax trees and can, in fact, define a one-to-one representation for the same. Because of this, Lisp (see below) and related programming languages define their entire syntax in terms of prefix or postfix expressions.
(...)

See also...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation

Pibwl - | 49

18 Feb 2010 #81

Hi, I'm a Pole, but I decided to join to clear out some rubbish, that was written...

FT-17. ... In September 1939 102 tanks armed with 8mm machineguns and 37mm main guns took part in combat grouped with tankettes into 3 armored companies, the tank is roughly comparable to the German Panzer I (though it is better armed having an actuall anti-tank capacity).

FT-17 was junk, nothing more, than slow-moving pillbox, while PzI was fit to manoeuvre warfare against infantry - and against tankettes as well. By the way, it was 7.92 mm MG, not 8 mm.

Vickers 6-ton. ...Armed with a 37mm cannon aproximately 26 Vickers tanks took part in combat in September 1939.

47 mm gun (22 tanks were armed this way, plus 16 MG-armed ones). 32 tanks took part in the campaign in mobilized units, plus some 4-5 fought again the Soviets in improvised units.

7-TP. ..The best Polish tank in use in 1939, responsible for spearheading the first major armored engagement of the war (won by Poles) at Tomaszów Lubelski,

Definitely not "won". The Poles lost all equipment and couldn't manage to break to Lviv, though they inflicted some losses as well.

... this 7.5 ton tank was arguably the best machine used on both sides of the conflict in September 1939.

Definitely not. It had good anti-tank gun, but weak armour. Apart from "medium" tanks Pz.3, I'd say, that PzKpfw-35(t) was better in its weight class (similar armament and speed, but one MG more, and better armour). And PzKpfw-38(t) was probably the best one - all the same, but more modern design.

Between 140 and 160 7tps took part in the September campaign.

Closer to the first figure.

Regards,
Pibwl

Cjay - | 1

24 Oct 2011 #82

Does anyone know what numbered tank companies had the FT-17s and where they fought.

I am also very interested to hear more about the prototype 10TP tank. My understanding had been that they did not see any combat.

Thank you,
Cjay

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #83

Today it is another anniversary of German attack on Poland in 1939. I have experienced a few dozens of them in my life. The first conscious memories are from 1970s.

Let`s see the most popular, even iconic pics of the 1939 September Campaign - the heroic fight which Poland was doomed to lose after being attacked by Germans on 1 Sep and later by their loyal allies, Soviets, on 17 Sep.

Germans are breaking the barrier on the Polish German border crossing point

17.jpg

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #84

German battleship Schlezwig Holstein is shelling the Polish military outpost in Westerplatte near Gdańsk. The defenders held out for a week.

18.jpg

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #85

Polish anti aircraft defence in Warsaw

19858_42039.jpg

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #86

The battle at Bzura River - the initial Polish successful counterstrike turned into a defeat due to German superiority in air and tank forces.

1b341db822e0465f8.jpg
1.jpg

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #87

Germans resorted to cruel terror since the first day of the invasion.
Execution scenes from Bydgoszcz:

wiki_bydgoszczrozst.jpg
logokrwawa_niedziela.jpg
Bydgoszcz_zakladnicy.jpg

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #88

Germans resorted to cruel terror

Also from the air. German aircraft massacred not only Polish troops but also civilians, especially refugees on roads, or even single people in fields or gardens.

A girl is deploring the death of her older sister after the air attack.

12.jpg

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #89

The Royal Castle in Warsaw during an air raid. Warsaw heroically resisted the German siege for 10 days. The indomitable capital of Poland - my fave city.

13.jpg

pawian 221 | 25287

1 Sep 2023 #90

The ruined operation room of a hospital in Warsaw. Germans intentionally bombed hospitals although they were marked with big Red Cross signs.

14.jpg