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Anyone know the name, if true... .... Polish Royal heir


bduff 1 | 2
18 Feb 2012  #1
Does anyone know the name of a Polish Royal heir that renounced his throne for the love a an Asian woman who was considered a commoner? "and if this past has any merit" Also, he was supposed to have been banished and left the country for America. This time line should be around four to five generations ago
Alligator - | 261
18 Feb 2012  #2
Polish Royal heir

around four to five generations ago

there was no Poland. Poland lost independence in 1795. Which Royal heir you are looking for: Russian, Prussian or Austrian.
ladykangaroo - | 165
18 Feb 2012  #3
Sounds more like a romantic novel than true.

This guy might have been some inspiration:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_Michael_Alexandrovich_of_Russia
scottie1113 7 | 898
18 Feb 2012  #4
Pure fantasy. Heir to what? Excuse me for asking this bduff, but do you know anything at all about Polish history?
pawian 159 | 9,509
19 Feb 2012  #5
Five generations ago means 100 years.

The last Polish king ruled in late 18 century. That is over 200 years.

Sorry,. everything what happened with/to Polish Royal Heirs after that time is pure nonsense.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
19 Feb 2012  #6
Pure fantasy. Heir to what? Excuse me for asking this bduff, but do you know anything at all about Polish history?

Polish kings, since the Piasts, have mostly been elected by the Polish nobility and so this thread is nonsensical. The crown hasn't been inherited in Poland since long before the partitions. There've been no Polish royal heirs for centuries and there are not any now.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
19 Feb 2012  #7
Five generations ago means 100 years.

just trying to be helpful

in genealogy one generation is counted as thirty years.

but at the same time my family don't follow that rule.
pawian 159 | 9,509
19 Feb 2012  #8
My family accept 20 years as a generation. :):):):)
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
19 Feb 2012  #9
I wonder if the OP has confused the story about the Russian and the Thai. That would be about 5 generations ago. There's probably plenty on the internet about it. I believe there's a Polish connection.
OP bduff 1 | 2
19 Feb 2012  #10
Thank you JonnyM. That is more of the response I am looking for. I DO NOT KNOW much of Polish history as I am an American with a blood line watered down to about a quarter Polish. Our family repressed the old to blend into the new. But a few small things have survived the time. No need to sound angry as some have. Also I am talking about "APPROXIMATELY" a x4 great grandfather...so information is short at best. I am still looking into the name even. To most everyone...on the time line wouldn't that somewhat make sense that a kingship would end if the King renounced his thrown and left??? Jonny M. I will definitely look into the Russian Thai thing. It is kind of funny as I am dating a Thai woman now, Americanized too but still.

Oh My Grandmother or...My mother's mother was born in 1936 so with that said, I think it has a little merit to the time line! And I am not looking for some claim to the thrown or something, but I would like to know my family history!
scottie1113 7 | 898
19 Feb 2012  #11
Start by reading some histories of Poland. After all, you live here. You should learn something about this country.
Alligator - | 261
19 Feb 2012  #12
on the time line wouldn't that somewhat make sense that a kingship would end if the King renounced his thrown and left?

No. There were 2 Polish kings who renounced throne: Henryk Walezy (Henry of Valois) in 1574. He left Poland and became king of France - Henry III. The second was Jan Kazimierz Waza in 1668, but his reasons to resign were more serious than complicated love life. You should look somewhere else for that royal heir, because, as Des Essientes already wrote here, Polish kings since late middle ages were elected. Polish throne was not hereditary.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
19 Feb 2012  #13
There was a program on the BBC a couple of years ago about 3 princes looking for love called "undercover princes".

The last episode featured two minutes of a Polish prince called "Jakub Puzyna", he was HOT! Probably of royal heritage but there hasn't been a Polish King for 200 odd years. Certainly not the dude you're after. Still....
Alligator - | 261
19 Feb 2012  #14
Polish prince called "Jakub Puzyna". Probably of royal heritage but there hasn't been a Polish King for 200 odd years.

Polish throne was not hereditary. The title "prince" belonged to sons of currenly ruling king. Other Polish princes bought their titles from e.g. Austrians. The Polish idea of nobility was that every noble is equal and he can't use titles other than titles of their state or military office/function. So in fact even if some noble bought his title from other monarchies, this title was not recognised in Poland.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
19 Feb 2012  #15
That's a shame. I wouldn't have minded bagging myself a smokin' hot Polish prince. Massive sad face. :(
noreenb 7 | 557
19 Feb 2012  #16
I don't have a clue.
Where did you find info about it, bduff?
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
19 Feb 2012  #17
a kingship would end if the King renounced his thrown and left??

The last king was deposed around 200 years ago. Poland did have all sorts of princes (whose titles derive from various states) plus other minor aristocracy. Several did make 'unsuitable' marriages over the years and many emigrated. A surname would really help here.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
19 Feb 2012  #18
and I am actually so happy we don't have any royalty and not much of aristocracy either - it really makes a diffference I think
boletus 30 | 1,366
19 Feb 2012  #19
So in fact even if some noble bought his title from other monarchies, this title was not recognised in Poland.

With some exceptions. Several Lthuanian families were recognized by Polish Parliament and Polish Kings as princely families upon entering into the real Polish-Lithuania union in Lublin in 1569. They are: Czartoryski h. Pogoń Litewska(*), Radziwiłł h. Trąby and Sanguszko h. Pogoń Litewska.

As it was already said, other families - 10 or so of them - have received princely titles from the partitioning powers: Prussia, Russia and Austria, or have bought them from the corrupted Polish Parliament during the dying times of the Republic. These titles were given quite late: in 18th, 19th or even in 20th centuries. They are: Czetwertyński h. Pogoń Ruska, Drucki-Lubecki h. Druck, Giedroyć h. Poraj, Massalski h. Massalski (1775 - Sejm), Ogiński h. Oginiec, Poniatowski h. Ciołek (1764 - Sejm), Poniński h. £odzia (1773 - Sejm), Puzyna h. Oginiec, Woroniecki h. Korybut, Zajczek h. Swinka.

Few other families were given princely titles a bit earlier but also from foreign powers, mainly Holy Roman Empire. They are: Lubomirski h. Szreniawa bez Krzyża (1595 - HRE), Ossoliński h. Topor (1633 - HRE), Sapieha h. Lis (1700 - HRE), Sułkowski h. Sulima (1733 - HRE).

There are also 10 or so of so-called families of ancient princely origin.

Other titles were also bought from the partitioning powers. This way there is one marquess family in Poland, 227 counts, 80 barons and 55 knights. Which means really nothing in Poland.

The article 96 of the March 1921 constitution said:

The Republic of Poland does not recognize the privileges or ancestral state, as well as any coat of arms, and international and other titles except for the scientific, official and professional ones. The citizens of the Republic must not be accept any foreign titles or medals without the permission of the President of the Republic of Poland.

This article was later removed from the April 1935 Constiitution though. But then came the WWII, communism and the Third Republic, which also has no special interest in nobility privileges and titles.

(*) h = herb = coat of arms
Ironside 48 | 9,705
19 Feb 2012  #20
The title "prince" belonged to sons of currenly ruling king. Other Polish princes bought their titles from e.g. Austrians. The Polish idea of nobility was that every noble is equal and he can't use titles other than titles of their state or military office/function. So in fact even if some noble bought his title from other monarchies, this title was not recognised in Polan

It is not exactly true.
Poland had princes:
Those dudes from the GDofL who at the time of Union 1569 had been governing their own separate territories. They Mostly belonged to Ruthenian and Lithuania ruling dynasties and their progeny:

Woronieccy = alive and kicking
Czertwertyńscy -a and k
Massalscy - a and k
Puzynowie (Puzyna) - a and k
Świrscy

Other category were fiefdoms of IRP ie Prussia hence Prince of Prussia.
Titles granted by King of Poland and/or Polish Parliament:
Poniatowscy -a and k
Bironowie - a and k
Titles granted by foreign Rulers or by the Pope:
Radziwiłowie - a and k
Lubomirscy - a and k
Sapiehowie - a and k
Sułkowscy - a and k
Lichnowscy - a and k
Radolińscy - a and k
Other titles mostly granted after the partition of Poland to A Great Houses of Polish nobility:
like barons (plenty )
counts (plenty) ie Zamoyscy - a and k
Nevertheless there is no heir of the Polish Crown ! Period.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
19 Feb 2012  #21
Nevertheless there is no heir of the Polish Crown ! Period.

True. Nor are there any recognised titles.
Ironside 48 | 9,705
19 Feb 2012  #22
No matter, if you are legal offspring of a noble family nobody can take the title away from you - that Poland for you not the UK.

Not that somebody would use it officially.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
19 Feb 2012  #23
f you are legal offspring of a noble family nobody can take the title away from you -

And nobody can confirm it, since titles no longer exist in Poland and there is no authority to rule on their validity or otherwise. Unlike the UK, Holland, Sweden etc where such things are officially regulated.
Ironside 48 | 9,705
19 Feb 2012  #24
Unlike the UK, Holland, Sweden etc where such things are officially regulated.

True
By the way I did mention Czartoryscy - a and k
OP bduff 1 | 2
20 Feb 2012  #25
I decided I would say this first afterall. For those wondering why I am so Unknowing of Polish history (Even though I thought I made it clear)...I am 28, born and raised citizen of the United States of America in the State of Arkansas. The only languages I know are English and bad English. I am learning Hmong though, thankfully my girlfriend knows both languages. I would like to learn the language of my ancestors and visit home so to speak. Have to learn about them first. This thread is the very begining of my research into this as I needed some leads from those who have already studied this. I am also a police officer and investigation is the name of the game. I am a college graduate with a B.A. in Criminology and an A.A.S. in Law Enforcement. It is not that I am uneducated, but that particular part of the world I am interested in most people here are not and do not have the resorces available without me knowing where to look because I may have to spend some money to get the books I need. The internet has some information, but can only be so credible before you have to look elsewhere.

I first would like to thank most everyone since my last post. I appreciate some taking my question seriously. It is unclear if my background is Polish or something similar in the region. I know the extremely small amount of the language I heard my family use was at least a dialect of the Russian language. My grandmother could not speak the language as she was not allowed to speak it as a little girl, she was only allowed to speak English, she could at least understand most spoken. The information provided is very helpfull. Most of my family of this particular part of the bloodline are dead. The only two names associated that I know of "spelling is NOT correct" are Swikoskie and Grotchec. I have to dig in the family documents including for spelling.

What I feel some have missed in this is the fact that the ancestor would have been of nobility and heir to some type of thrown and was not currently the king, as from what I gather of everyone their would probably have been several people with that type of title. Also the nobel title would NOT have been some sort of demotion it was my ancestors choice because he chose to marry an Asian commoner rather than following customs of the time. So any title claim would be futile as it was Renounced. I just would like to know the origins of my family and wouldn't it just be something awesome to discover it was true you were of nobility. This story originated to my knowledge from a great grandfather as the information was passed down generation to generation. I could even be wrong about how long ago it was. I wish I had more to go on, as I fear I may never get to the bottom of it as I believe when they came to America they may have changed their names to abandon any recognized shame (or fame) among other immigrants. Like I said in the last post...family was not to do anything but be an American. Currently I am 28 years old and I believe I am the first to look into this past down claim of nobility in at least a century. This is the very beginning of my research. I wanted to throw the question out there to see if anyone of the region or background had any known types of stories as it could have been one for the history books. I at least know the married Asian woman part is true because every so often one of the family offspring will look just like an Asain! My aunt looked just like a little Asian girl as a child and still resembles a woman of Asian decendancy. Others definitly look to be of the region in question.

I will check back on this thread in a few days. I need to make a few phone calls for some leads! Again thank you to those who truly tried to help!
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
20 Feb 2012  #26
It is unclear if my background is Polish or something similar in the region.

in trying to answer the question you are starting at the wrong end.

with genealogy/family history you should start in the present and work backwards.

birth, death, marriage records

naturalization records.

social security records

ship's records (ellis island records)

church records (in Poland)

Most important is to speak to as many living family members as possible and write down what they say.

stories like yours almost always have a hint of truth. i suspect there may have been a noble in the family, but not a prince.

this man you are looking for may have been the son or grandson of a person of note ... and was living off his family history.
pip 10 | 1,661
20 Feb 2012  #27
and I am actually so happy we don't have any royalty and not much of aristocracy either - it really makes a diffference I think

ok- so now there are those that just think they have royal blood based on how much money they make and how big there suv is.

There are records that go back a long time- but it is easier to start at the beginning and work your way back- try ancestry.com- they have loads of stuff.
worldtuner - | 1
7 Mar 2012  #28
Yes.

Whether he would like me to post his name here is a different thing, however I can tell you that he lives in Mayfair, London and works for Credit Susse as a homes in France, Poland and Brazil, 2 children boy and girl, doesn't drink and a vegetarian.
Ironside 48 | 9,705
7 Mar 2012  #29
Yes.

yes to what ? if Polish Royal heir - fat chance !as there is no one!
boletus 30 | 1,366
7 Mar 2012  #30
There were 2 Polish kings who renounced throne: Henryk Walezy (Henry of Valois) in 1574 ... The second was Jan Kazimierz Waza in 1668

There was actually one more: Stanisław August Poniatowski (1732-1798) - the last King and Grand Duke of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth(1764-95), who was forced to abdicate on November 25, 1795 - after the final, Third Partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The only two names associated that I know of "spelling is NOT correct" Swikoskie and Grotchec. I have to dig in the family documents including for spelling.

Yes, you better dig for right spelling, otherwise you waste our and your time. For example, your "Swikoskie" (which is absolutely impossible spelling in Polish), could actually be "Sujkowski" (alternative Polish spelling "Sójkowski"), or even "Sułkowski" since they all sound kind of similar in English (though distinctly different in Polish), and which you can easily check using translate.google.com.

Of the three possibilities only the Sułkowski surname could be of any importance and relation to your "royal" story.

There was indeed an aristocratic Sułkowski family, which came into significance after the romance of Elżbieta Szalewska, a wife of Stanisław Sułkowski, with Polish King Augustus II the Strong(1670-1733). She bore him an illegitimate son, her husband gave him his surname, and that's how the history of Sułkowskis developed - from obscured nobles from Mazovia to Dukes (Austrian "Herzog") and Princes (Austrian "Fürst") of Bielsko (Cieszyn Silesia or Těšín Silesia or Teschen Silesia, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielsko, formerly Austria, now Poland) and Rydzyna (formerly Prussia, now Wielkopolska, Poland, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rydzyna).

Cherchez la femme!

Descendants of both lines are known to be living in Austria, Germany, Hungary and North America.

There is a long article in wikipedia about Sułkowskis Family: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sułkowski_family.

If my guess is incorrect, then at least we get some entertaining story out of this thread. :-)


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