Jaruzelski vs Pinochet

And more than a few were determined to make the best for Poland from the bad situation which Poland found itself in after WWII.

As I recall, Jaruzelski distinguished himself during the ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainians.

That and hunting down former AK members who hadn't realised which way the wind was blowing (unlike the father of somebody we won't mention).

From memory Jaruzelski was invited to join the party shortly after Operation Vistula, so he must have done well.

Jaruzelski's early life and military career. Something about the Home Army but nothing about Ukrainians. Where did you get it from?

He served in the Soviet-sponsored First Polish Army during the war. He participated in the Soviet military takeover of Warsaw and the Battle of Berlin, both of which occurred in 1945. By the time the war ended that year, he had gained the rank of lieutenant. He "further credited himself in Soviet eyes" by engaging in combat against the Polish Home Army, an anti-communist organization, from 1945 to 1947.

After the end of the war, Jaruzelski graduated from the Polish Higher Infantry School, an event which was followed by a graduation from the General Staff Academy. He joined Poland's communist party, the Polish United Workers Party, in 1948 and started to denounce people for the Soviet supervised Main Directorate of Information of the Polish Army using the cover name Wolski. In the first post-war years, he was among the military fighting the Polish anti-communist guerrillas ("cursed soldiers") in the Świętokrzyskie region. A BBC News profile of Jaruzelski says that his career "took off after the departure [from Poland] in 1956 of the Soviet Field Marshal, Konstantin Rokossovsky", who had been Poland's Commander in Chief and Minister of Defence.

The Polish version of Wikipedia contains a mention of it - I forget where I read it, but he certainly was involved in some way against the UPA.

Jaruzelski's official website states that from the fall of 1945 until 1946, Jaruzelski took part in "fighting bandits of the armed underground and Ukrainian nationalist" in order to "defend the Polishness of Hrubieszow Land".

Let it be stated here clearly: the Party
Descends directly from the fascist Right.

And who recognized that the way to power
Was to blow on the coals of national passions?

But he was a soldier of lower rank not a general then.

E.g., he never drank alcohol which was abundant in the army and then government offices.

He's apparently too modest to mention the Virtuti Militari which he was awarded for that 'work'.

After the massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia few Poles would have condemned him for fighting the UPA.
The nationalist passions were ubiquitous at the time.

Indeed. Perhaps Dougpol should bear this in mind.

Chomsky on the 500 years of western imperialism since Christopher Columbus

Communism under western eyes:

The animating concern was not Stalin's awesome crimes, but the apparent successes in development with their broad appeal, and the possibility that the Russians might be "flirting with the thought" of lending support to "aspirations of the common man" in the West, and subjugated and oppressed people everywhere. The failure of East Europe to resume its traditional role as a supplier of food and raw materials to the West compounded these concerns. The problem is not crimes, but insubordination, a fact illustrated by a host of gangsters from Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin to Saddam Hussein. It was not Stalin's crimes that troubled Western leaders.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BadP-1QlgVA

Similarities
7

Both were visited by John Paul II.

Pawian, do we know what JPII and Jaruzelski discussed, if anything?

Excellent question.

Of course we don`t know too many details, only certain facts, mostly provided by Jaruzelski. They met 8 times and talked for many hours, even when General was out of office. E.g., they talked about history a lot.

More here but be careful, this Przegląd site is a leftist magazine: przeglad-tygodnik.pl/pl/artykul/papiez-general

It is possible that John Paul considered Jaruzelski a tragic figure who depended on Moscow in all matters but at the same time tried to be a patriot of Poland. Socialist Poland, but still Poland.

Well, Poles tell emotional stories about Katyn as if it were yesterday. That I disagree with, as it's done and dusted. But those who survived went on to live pretty poorly for the next 44 years, wouldn't you agree Adam? Unless one was scum enough to accept Party membership of course - fine if you believed in Leninism - but a betrayal if you did so for a "better life" for your family IMO, and half of Poland looks on Martial Law as a betrayal (Referundum, 2001?) Sorry, too tired from overwork trying to pay my communist ordered ZUS to research this......


Yes, thanks for answering Delph - my comment pertaining to you was an unnecessarily sarcastic one - I was referring to the damage that Jarulselski did to the Polish spirit. I wasn't here in Martial Law - first visit in 1985, but I heard first hand the emotion and the burning anger among normal Poles in Silesia at his actions. They would have torn him limb from limb.

Poles are cultured people - that animosity has largely died.
I was simply saying, if it had happened in Britain.... some of us non believers would not be so forgiving, myself included. I remember the pain and sadness in my wife's family, and it made me angry that they couldn't fight back, but were resigned to living the rest of their lives without freedom. As late as spring of 1989 nobody on the street really believed that communism would fall. We on this forum listen to the authoritative voice of Harry, saying he spoke to this person and that person in the Czech regime, and that Jarulselki was a good egg

Was he here? Does he appreciate the ignominy that ordinary people felt - nobodies in their own land - largely caused in recent times by that one man?

And so Jarulzelski led his forces as a patriot? What does that prove? Hitler the Little Corporal was a patriot.

Yes, indeed. That is why we were so surprised by your outburst. Especially that


I was here in 1981 and saw my parents crying when they listened to the radio broadcast of martial law declaration on Sunday morning in the kitchen. That shocking view got imprinted in my mind for ever.


Yes, we saw that repulsive festival of joy in British streets after Margaret Thatcher died.

Until you were in such a situation, I don't think you can judge. There were plenty of ordinary, decent people who had Party membership (or were members of one of the pseudo-Party organisations) who did nothing wrong to anyone. That included a considerable percentage of the educated classes - who had an education and who had no desire to rot their brains in a mindnumbing factory. Can you honestly say that they were scum?

Of course, if you had Party membership to line your own pockets through corruption, then you were of course scum. But the rank and file can't really been criticised in the same way - in my humble opinion.


I would argue that the most devastating act since 1956 was marital law. The Army in 1980-1981 was somewhat trusted - even, as I understand it, the general attitude of Walesa and others was that they could do business with Jaruzelski because he had the support of Moscow and that he was from a good family and background. For him to order the Polish Army on their own people was - as you say - damaging to the collective mentality.


I wouldn't blame them in the 80's. Nowadays, I don't understand it - but back then, it's perfectly understandable. Sadly, hatred of Jaruzelski these days seems to be directly in reverse proportion to one's own status in society.


Solidarity themselves were expecting to only win 20-30 seats in the Sejm, not helped by the PZPR choosing a lot of local celebrities to stand for election.


Apologies for nitpicking, but ZUS was created in the II RP, not in the PRL.

Communist inspired ZUS :)

In what way?

Probably the fact that ZUS requires you to actually save for your own pension.

Looks like that - and of course provides a very limited safety net, plus some healthcare.

Not expensive either.

If you apply the principle that if you earn 4000zl as a self employed person, you pay 1000zl in ZUS and very little income tax (usually next to nothing if your accounts are done properly) - then a 25% tax rate that includes health care and pension contributions isn't really so bad.

What the fucck are you talking about Jon? 1,200 zl pr more each for a couple running a S,C,? Fine if you're clearing more than 15 thou a month - otherwise criminally expensive.

Where is the opt out of mandatory ZUS? They won't get another single solitarity zloty out of me - not one zloty, and that's a fact.

That's a socialist indirect tax and should be linked to earnings. The rich get richer and I for one wont be a sucker any more.


Nonsense Delph - does that include you?

I don't live in Poalnd to pay 25 per cent on the lifestyle that I have - no way Jose. It's tough enough paying for those lazy ex miners and corpulent ex policeman to sit on their aarses at 40 drinking in their allotments and doing fucck all..

Do you think the rich in Poland pay 25 per cent?

My mate the developer in Katowice has swimming pools indoor and out and he's moaning his head off about his 9 per cent. :)


Another joke - in Katowice I couldn't fault it - but why does Poland spend only 9 per cent GDP on healthcare? Because they want to another America, and to abdicate state responsibilty. In the meantime they're happy to bleed us dry. I don't want the state to decide my pension - I"ve been saving for it myself thank you very much for the last 24 years here, and in the meantime, while running my businesses, have always been 100 per cent up front, have never been granted a single zloty in aid of any kind, such as tax relief for employing 30 staff, as i started too early for the 3 thou or whatever handout, and never been awarded a cheap flat from public coffers by that criminal Kaczynski... .

Poles are clever and always right.

Never co-operate with anybody. Go your own way, and fucck them all.

It makes sense - they have a specific purpose, and they're not for couples in general. I know one that is used to run a bar - which makes sense, the owners have different business interests and it gives the bar a specific legal identity. And don't forget that the ZUS costs are deductible from taxes.


Why should you be allowed to opt out when employees and employers can't?


I wonder how you're doing this, unless you work exclusively under umowa o dzieło contracts. In which case, good luck to you.


Perhaps, but we all know that the reality would mean most sole traders would save nothing for retirement and the country would be facing a massive crisis in the years to come.


I dunno what my tax burden is, I'm employed under umowa o prace and don't pay attention to the gross figure. Last time I checked, it was coming in around 35% - I can live with that.


Nice - you take advantage of what Poland has to offer, but you refuse to contribute. I do hope you don't use any services that are funded by the State, such as most public transport systems in Poland.


Since when has taxation been a set percentage?


Because private healthcare is cheap and affordable.


I'm the last to defend Kaczynski, but as far as I know, he did nothing in particular in that respect.

But if you never got a single zloty, then you simply didn't try. There are so many funds available that you'd have to consciously avoid applying for them.


Nice. Obviously you don't have much of a conscience.

All good points Delph, and yes, I do care - just dragged down by struggling against the sytem, and bad advice.
As I said - I won't tow the system anymore. I find it doesn't work for me.Too old, and if push comes to shove I'll just up and back to blighty to exercise my pension.

Yes - working on umova dzielo at the moment. Still fit and playing all sports at 56 so why care? If something happens like cancer, I'll up sticks. In the meantime, I've payed more than my share into the Polish system thanks very much. As you suggest, through ignorance.

Ps - please do tell why I should pay for Medicover when I was already paying 1,200 a month for ZUS? Where is the logic? I couldn't afford the 1,200 amd nether ccould a lot of small businesss people I know - only going by my experiences and others.

It's the principle - I could afford it, but fucck em.

If I could have opted out of the health part of ZUS ahile running a SC I would have - as in the UK - here it is not possible. So why? it's a socialist state - that's why.....

People?

Are you all satisfied with the social security system? AKA ZUS?

Delph and Jon seem to think it's cheap and fair.

Well?

Would you like to live in the world of the mad mathematician:

This is the world of isolated and mindless people. I'd rather live in the world of philosophers of older days, questioning and examining their lives at any moment:

The unexamined life is not worth living for a human being.

It is better to live your own life than mindlessly follow others ideas for a good life.
Think for yourself. Poles mostly do. You are talking as if you have given up that privilege of thinking for yourself.

That is why I reject Jaruzelski as a traitor who turned to Soviet Russians for help in crushing independent Solidarity and thus ending the period of amazing freedom in the years 1980-81. After the 1981 martial law, the communist regime brutally ruled Poland until 1989. The economy collapsed completely coz Poland wasn` t able to repay the old debts which were only getting bigger each year. We lost 8 years of our development.

Defending Poland took place in WW2 and is worth respect.
What about his later activity when he was a secret agent in the army in 1950s and gave away officers who didn`t love communism enough?

What about 1970 when he commanded troops which suppressed the workers` revolt in the seaside cities??

How about 1981 martial law when his troops and police henchmen quelled Solidarity and repressed its activists and killed dozens of people?

Don`t be silly.

None of these men received any punishment.

Yes. They realised in time that the wind of change was coming. And they floated with it, allowing for changes to take place without further bloodshed. That is why they weren`t hung on street lamps by angry mob.