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Jaruzelski vs Pinochet


pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #1
funerals of such people as Hitler, Stalin, Bierut and Jaruzelski would scream out for forceful signs of disapproval and opposition

Of course, putting Jaruzelski next to Stalin or Hitler is gross exaggeration.

There is a better match for him - Augusto Pinochet, military dictator of Chile for 16 years.

Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte, more commonly known as Augusto Pinochet (Spanish pronunciation: [auˈɣusto pinoˈtʃet]),[note 1] (25 November 1915 - 10 December 2006) was an army general and dictator of Chile from 1973 until transferring power to a democratically elected president in 1990. He was the commander-in-chief of the Chilean army from 1973 to 1998 and president of the Government Junta of Chile from 1973 to 1981.[2]

Wojciech Witold Jaruzelski (pronounced [ˈvɔi̯t͡ɕɛx jaruˈzɛlskʲi] ( listen); born 6 July 1923) is a retired Polish military officer and Communist politician. He was the last Communist leader of Poland from 1981 to 1989, Prime Minister from 1981 to 1985 and the country's head of state from 1985 to 1990. He was also the last commander-in-chief of the Polish People's Army (LWP). He resigned from power after the Polish Round Table Agreement in 1989 that led to democratic elections in Poland.


Let me start with similarities:

1 Sunglasses

sunglasses

jaruzelski pinochet

Jaruzelski Poland

General
Harry    
9 Aug 2013  #2
1 Sunglasses

Only one of them wore sunglasses; the other wore corrective glasses.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #3
I am afraid you are wrong - both wore some kind of sunglasses, be it for image improvement or health reasons.

Let me start with similarities:

2
Both were generals, head commanders of their armies:

who did far more for Poland than you ever will.

The problem is how to understand far more - good or bad things.
Harry    
9 Aug 2013  #4
The problem is how to understand far more - good or bad things.

Good.
Nile 1 | 155    
9 Aug 2013  #5
Others who refused being taught got a bullet in the back of their heads and were buried in mass graves.

So, according to you his choices are commendable.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #6
Good.

Hmm, we shall talk about it soon. :)

That would make him not only a traitor but a coward.

Are you another brave hero who is tough before his/her computer but has no idea what life was like at the time when Jaruzelski made crucial desicions????? :):):)

So, according to you his choices are commendable.

I am not making strict judgements on his choices during the war due to extremely complicated circumstances he found himself in. Actually, he had no choice.
Nile 1 | 155    
9 Aug 2013  #7
Are you another brave hero who is tough before his/her computer????? :):):)

I edited my post.
If you are not able to live according to principles,that is your problem. Don't try and second guess other people.

Actually, he had no choice.

Not true, he had a choice.

I am not making strict judgements on his choices during the war due to extremely complicated circumstances he found himself in.

You are pretending to be a philosopher but clearly you are not.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #8
I edited my post.
If you are not able live according to principles,that is your problem. Don't try and second guess other people.

Listen, I am probably older than you. I have already learnt that people who cry out about principles are the first to break them when bad times come. That is why I stick to what I said no matter if you edit your posts or not - it is easy to be a hero in your cosy room and to judge people who had to take extreme decisions which were of life or death importance.

Not true, he had a choice.

For example?
Nile 1 | 155    
9 Aug 2013  #9
I have already learnt that people who cry out about principles are the first to break them when bad times come.

Who "cry out" about principles? You are not making much sense. I'm talking people with principles not hypocrites or cowards.
You are cynical but this is your problem.

For example?

Others who refused being taught got a bullet in the back of their heads and were buried in mass graves.

OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #10
Jaruzelski worked for Nkvd, he was known as a very ideologically correct.

We can get to it soon, now we are discussing war period, don`t jump dates, please.

pawian:Actually, he had no choice.

Not true, he had a choice.

For example?

Others who refused being taught got a bullet in the back of their heads and were buried in mass graves.

Sorry, only after you show me you make such a choice yourself, I will believe you are not another paper hero who cries out loud about principles... :):) Sorry, Nile, majtki w dół, pieniądze na stół. Strzel sobie w łeb w odruchu solidarności a Ci uwierzę że masz zasady o których piszesz. :):):):) So far your production in the forum didn`t convince me you really cherish any valuable principles.
Nile 1 | 155    
9 Aug 2013  #11
Only after you show me you make such a choice I will believe you are not another paper hero who cries out loud about principles...

Those others who faced such a choice, those who were buried in mass grave. You should compare him to them not to me. Your argument is poorly and personal.

I think your cynicism is clouding your judgement but that is your problem not mine.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #12
A hero and a man of honour are people like Sp. Gen. Nil-Fieldorf... Or Sp. Rot Pilecki.
Both sacraficed their lifes.

Yes, they were great patriots. But when did they make their crucial decisions to object to the end? When they were mature men, at 40, 45 years of age, they were both older than Jaruzelski by 20, nearly 30 years. He made his decision to go with Soviets when he was 20. What the hell do you expect????

That is why I called you a pretencious computer hero because you are so superficial in judgement and practically know nothing about life and people.

Jabberwocky was a traitor, he was serving the Soviets, never cared less about Poland.
For wujek and the rest he should be courtmarshalled and treated as traitor in an old good fashion.

Not so fast, we shall discuss it sooner or later, now we are talking about first choices taken during the war. Could you hold on for a while??? :)_:):)

Ps: nile i think you have a place in our group, zimmy, me, pol3, ironside and wielkipolak !
Join the club!

Is it the current list of paper heroic loudmouths?? Thanks. :):):)
goofy_the_dog    
9 Aug 2013  #13
The evidence is all there:

polishforums.com/history-poland-34/jaruzelski-comrade-general-goes-war-61070

Indeed a true patriot.. To russia!

If he was twenty then he understood perfectly what he was doing.
By his age uprisers in warsaw willingly went to battle knowing that they could die.
20 years old man understands the environment and the choices that he can make.

A question arises..why do u defend him ?
Some roots possibly?
An ordinary Pole wouldnt talk that way...
pakol - | 20    
9 Aug 2013  #14
There's one thing the leftists don't mention.

During the deposed president Allende's rules the level of leftist attacks on ordinary people, mainly richer grew rapidly. That was supported by many Cuban and Soviet agents.

And silently supported by the authorities.
Chile was at the edge of revolution in pure Soviet style.
Trouble is that Chilean constitution did NOT know the idea of legal deposing the president - impeachment.
That is why a large group of MPs actually asked the army to defend the law and depose the bandit Allende and his henchmen by force.

Jaruzelski was a communist, Soviet puppet and dictator ruling in the country by serving its occupants against his countrymen.

Sunglasses and general's rank are the only similarities
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
9 Aug 2013  #15
20, after his father`s death, when they drafted him into Soviet Army

Was it common to draft exiled Polish nationals into the Soviet Army? He must have volunteered. Despite his gentry roots (Noble Clan of Ślepowron), exemplary upbringing in a patriotic Polish home and a Catholic school run by the Marian Fathers, he turned his back on all that for the sake of a career. He began serving the Soviet empire that had murdered his dad, adopted the alien Marxist ideology and betrayed his Catholic faith. He didn't even attend his mother's funeral mass becuase of fthe Polish Puppet Army's anti-Catholic agenda.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #16
Was it common to draft exiled Polish nationals into the Soviet Army?

Yes, for some time Soviets considered those deported Poles as Soviet citizens. About 150.000 Poles were forced to join the Red Army and they fought as early as in Soviet Finnish Winter War 1940.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(1939%E2%80%9346)

If he was twenty then he understood perfectly what he was doing. By his age uprisers in warsaw willingly went to battle knowing that they could die.

Yes, true. But don`t miss the fact that misled by their commanders, they didn`t fully realise all aspects of the military and political situation and in result most of them died and the city was razed to the ground. Today we truly consider them heroes, but don`t we regret the loss of lives too???

A question arises..why do u defend him ?
Some roots possibly?
An ordinary Pole wouldnt talk that way...

hahaha I was waiting for it, indeed. A "truly patriotic" Pole is asking another about his background..... So lovely..... :):)

First of all. Why do you think I am defending Jaruzelski? :):):) Aren`t you clever enough to see that I am only trying to help you realise the complexity of conditions he was thrown into during the war?

Again, I will repeat it: if we talk about Jaruzelski`s choice during war time, I am far from being judgemental.
goofy_the_dog    
9 Aug 2013  #17
Pawian, you are defending him, stop talking nonesense.
I can judge fromcthe way you form your posts about a butcher of Wujek.
Nile 1 | 155    
9 Aug 2013  #18
Mature men fully understand what is at stake and often they have children and family. Whereas 20 years old are a lot more idealistic.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #19
Pawian, you are defending him, stop talking nonesense. I can judge fromcthe way you form your posts about a butcher of Wujek.

Unfortunately, your judgement capacity is heavily encumbered with bias, I am afraid. :):):)

Mature men fully understand what is at stake and often they have children and family. Whereas 20 years old are a lot more idealistic.

That is a good one! (but idealistic mostly means stupid) :):):)

OK, let`s say that Jaruzelski in 1943, when joined Soviets, wasn`t idealistic, but pragmatic.

Can we finish the war period now?
pakol - | 20    
9 Aug 2013  #20
A new commie tacticts - accusing of boring people when telling about their atrocities. That won't succeed.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #21
Sunglasses and general's rank are the only similarities

Again, like some other interlocutors here, you don`t see the whole complexity of the topic. :):):)

Let me start with similarities:

3
Both organised coup de tats and took authoritarian power in their countries:

Chile

Poland

Poland police-
pakol - | 20    
9 Aug 2013  #22
Read my first post.

Pinochet did the coup because the Parliament urged him to do so as there was no legal way of deposing the mad commie Allende.
And after some time as the situation was better, gave his powers back to the nation.
Jaruzelski was a commie traitor that took power to stop the Poles getting their independence back.
goofy_the_dog    
9 Aug 2013  #23
PRL was a always an authoritarian state lol.
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #24
Pinochet did the coup because the Parliament urged him to do so

Strange that the whole Parliament urged him to do so.....

And after some time as the situation was better, gave his powers back to the nation.

Jaruzelski did too. We will talk about it.

pawian: Let me start with similarities:

4
Both caused bloodshed:

In the first months after the coup d'état, the military killed thousands of Chilean Leftists, both real and suspected, or forced their "disappearance". The military imprisoned 40,000 political enemies in the National Stadium of Chile; among the tortured and killed desaparecidos (disappeared) were the U.S. citizens Charles Horman, and Frank Teruggi. [37] In October 1973, the Chilean song-writer Víctor Jara, and 70 other political killings were perpetrated by the death squad, Caravan of Death (Caravana de la Muerte).





Poland
On December 16, three days after the introduction of the martial law in Poland, pro-Solidarity miners striking against the declaration of the martial law by General Wojciech Jaruzelski were dispersed by the troops of the Polish army and police.

In the apex of the events, a commando-type special platoon of ZOMO opened the "shoot to kill" fire at the strikers, killing nine of them (Jan Stawisiński, Joachim Gnida, Józef Czekalski, Krzysztof Giza, Ryszard Gzik, Bogusław Kopczak, Andrzej Pełka, Zbigniew Wilk and Zenon Zając) and wounding 21 others. One of the deaths took place after 20 or more days in hospital with severe head-wounds.



pakol - | 20    
9 Aug 2013  #25
Strange that the whole Parliament urged him to do so.....

This is rather unusual when the whole Parliament agrees on sth, isn't it?
Haven't you heard about the required majority?
OP pawian 151 | 7,986    
9 Aug 2013  #26
pakol:Pinochet did the coup because the Parliament urged him to do so
Strange that the whole Parliament urged him to do so.....

Haven't you heard about the required majority?

I am afraid you are telling it off the top of your head. How is it possible that the carp voted for Christmas?? :):):) Pinochet immediately closed down the Chilean Parliament after the coup.

So, a source would be greatly appreciated, if you please......

Let me start with similarities:

5

Both are highly controvercial figures, admired by some, hated by others. The latter are mostly the families of victims who once perished at the hands of their regimes. The bloodshed they caused brought tears, suffering and pain.

Chilean pain:

The photographs show a group of family members of the "detenidos desaparecidos" (the detained and disappeared).

s

protest in Poland

Polish pain: among others, families and workmates of miners and workers who got killed by communist regime forces in 1981:

grief in Poland-

IWhat was never explained though was that he wore darker lenses because he suffered permanent injuries from snow blindness while exiled in Siberia.

Yes, that was health reason.

I can't find it now but several months ago I came across an article about an interview Jaruzelski gave.

They didn`t eliminate it fully, there was only a shift of worship object, the communist comissar, later secretary, that replaced landowners still required having some sort of homage paid.

Oddly, despite what happened to him and his family, he said he was quite fond of Russian culture.

Which seems attractive to many Poles.
goofy_the_dog    
10 Aug 2013  #27
I dont see how it made Poland a better place, a commie's blabber.
When will he put to jail ?!

Niech sprawiedliwosci stanie sie zadosc!
delphiandomine 85 | 17,658    
10 Aug 2013  #28
I dont see how it made Poland a better place, a commie's blabber.

Poland is certainly a better place without women having to kiss the hand of someone who was lucky enough to be born to the right parents.

When will he put to jail ?!

Christianity, goofy, Christianity.
goofy_the_dog    
10 Aug 2013  #29
Delphi, be quiet.
I think i know better what Christianity is then some atheist and by the Christianity's ideolorgy a heavy sinner.

So i ask again oh when will he be put to nick :-(
delphiandomine 85 | 17,658    
10 Aug 2013  #30
I think i know better what Christianity is then some atheist and by the Christianity's ideolorgy a heavy sinner.

Then you should also know to preach forgiveness rather than revenge.


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