Jaruzelski vs Pinochet

You are mistaking the names, not revenge but justice.
I know that leftists would like christians to be naive children but this aint going to happen.

One of the most important christian dogmas is the justice.

Read about what the RCC says about killing e.g.

You are calling men who refused to become traitors on a pain of death and stayed true to their principles - stupid. I disagree, I think they weren't stupid they were doing their duty and serving interest of their country(all citizens) by refusing to be cowed. What you call pragmatic I call cowardice there is nothing pragmatic in being a traitor.

Pragmatism is an action or policy dictated by consideration of the immediate practical consequences rather than by theory or dogma. I understand that people who are thinking mainly about themselves would rather say they are pragmatic than egoistical but it doesn't fit the description. Egoism is excessive preoccupation with one's own well-being and interests, usually accompanied by an inflated sense of self-importance. Such egoistic person in a face of danger can cowardly chose to be disloyal to his or her own nation. Pretending that it has anything to do with pragmatism is a lie.

:):):)


6

Both gave up their authoritiarian power and allowed democratic elections.

A background story from the beginning of the economic transformation:

As Latin Americans had just learned, authoritarian regimes have a habit of embracing democracy at the precise moment when their economic projects are about to implode. Poland was no exception. The speed of the collapse of the old order and the sudden election sweep had been shocks in themselves: in a matter of months, Solidarity activists went from hiding from the secret police to being responsible for paying the salaries of those same agents. And now they had the added shock of discovering that they barely had enough money to make the payroll. Rather than building the post-Communist economy they had dreamed of, the movement had the far more pressing task of avoiding a complete meltdown and potential mass starvation.

From the book by Naomi Klein: The shock doctrine...

Jaruzelski's evolution in the '80s even anticipated that of the Solidarity trade union. The slogan formed in the Lenin Shipyard in Gdańsk in 1980: There can be no freedom without Solidarity - Nie ma Wolności bez Solidarności.

The slogan of the then Communist government (Jaruzelski's government), emblazoned on a banner stretched across the Central Committee building, echoing with the Hayek's "Liberty and responsibility are inseparable": There can be no freedom without responsibility - Nie ma Wolności bez Odpowiedzialności.

Jerzy Urban about Jaruzelski in his long interview with Marta Streecka:

Pieklił się, że ten Reagan to bezczelny kłamca i fałszywiec. Aprobował przecież stan wojenny, a później udawał oburzenie. Oczekiwał w polityce prostolinijności, ale tylko od przeciwników.

[Jaruzelski] ranted and raved about Reagan being a blatant liar and a double-crosser. After all he gave consent to the martial law and then later [Reagan] pretended righteous indignation. He expected from politicians to be guileless, ingenuous and artless, but that was the standard for his opponents.

Tomasz Wołek's oppinions about the interview:

Żaden członek elity władzy nie uchylił zasłony tak zamaszyście, odsłaniając skryte za nią tajemnice. Ten widok przyprawia o mdłości

As yet no other member of the elite politicians drew so boldly the curtains aside as to reveal behind it the covered secrets.

In 1999, Michał Kamiński, former chairman of the European Conservatives and Reformists in the European Parliament, along with Marek Jurek and the journalist Tomasz Wołek (look above) visited London to present a gorget embossed with an image of the Virgin Mary to former Chilean dictator General Augusto Pinochet. Kamiński told the BBC's Polish service that this was the most important meeting of my whole life. Gen Pinochet was clearly moved and extremely happy with our visit.

Maybe they should present the gorget to Jaruselski, after all two generals have much in common with each other, namely the road to serfdom : Hayek's views on Pinochet's Chile. Kamiński, Wołek and Jurek are also somewhat alike Jaruzelski in other respect: they turned their back on all that Solidarity stood for for the sake of a career. Am I wrong?

That's not true, and could only be written by someone with little knowledge of how pre-1989 economics worked in Communist countries in Europe.


Nice conspiracy theory, but the reality was that Poland was in the mess of her own making. It was no secret that the West was quite happy to watch "Communist' countries bankrupt themselves, for it would provoke regime change far more effectively than a war.


I think the industries in which Solidarność still have a stranglehold show that it could never work. The "chance" required massive amounts of money to bring them to any sort of reasonable standard - money that the country just didn't have. It's worth pointing out that many of the Solidarność strongholds were doomed to failure from the beginning for various reasons - letting trade unions run them just ended in disaster, as we already saw with the shipyards.

Naomi Klein, because the facts you are referring to are from her book, is not talking about a theory, but about the established practice.

The established practice in European Communist countries was for the existence of a dual economy - Poles were no strangers to consumer markets and prices.

I'd say even more than that

Demands to read:

11. Znieść ceny komercyjne oraz sprzedaż za dewizy w tzw. eksporcie wewnętrznym.

11. The abolition of 'commercial' prices and of other sales for hard currency in special shops.

13. Wprowadzić na mięso i jego przetwory kartki ? bony żywnościowe.

13. The introduction of food coupons for meat and meat products.

forum.gazeta.pl/forum/w,57,25166156,25184970,tekst_21_postulatow_do_przeczytania.html

As you can see Solidarity movement was against commercialization and much more anti-market than so-called communists.

You do not remember but I do the doggerel poetry of the memorable days of 1980:

kto ty jesteś ? - komercjuszek, jaki znak twój - pusty brzuszek....

At the beginning of the economic transformation the so-called private sector made up to 20% of the Polish total GNP, more than in any other so-called communist country.

Solidarność was hilariously anti-market (and still is) - when you read the 21 demands, it becomes very obvious that they were after a "TKM" style society rather than a fair and free society.

Right.

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.

Jefferson, Thomas.

Yes, cut-throat capitalism truly does produce a fair and free society. However, only for tycoons, bankers and assorted plutocrats as well as their well-connected servilistic flunkies and yesmen!

No Polonius, what the enlightened ones wanted was a society that offered a fair chance to all - without Communist or Trade Union style nepotism.

A society that rewards mediocre people for having their right membership - be it Party or Trade Union - is not a fair society. At least capitalism did offer those with the brains the chance to succeed.

Only a dreadful society would allow dreadful "professionals" with no qualifications other than loyalty to end up living in large houses.

mediocre - 1580s; from Middle French médiocre (16c.), from Latin mediocris "of middling height or state, moderate, ordinary," figuratively "mediocre, mean, inferior," originally "halfway up a mountain," from medius "middle". As a noun, "medicore thing or person," by 1834.

middle class - 1766; as an adjective, "characteristic of the middle class" (depreciative) it dates from 1893.

bourgeois - A person belonging to the middle class

Midiocre, middle class or bourgeois, what difference? Who are you pointing at? You are pointing at yourself?


On the trail of George Orwell's outcasts
bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14372195


It was indeed an offer only and still is.
But there is a hope in the land of hope and glory:

And did those feet in ancient time.
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bKaJ4b0XYmI

Dark Satanic Mills is referring to industrial revolution and its destruction of nature and human relationships.

[i]I znowuż kręcić się będą ponure szatańskie młyny
Czy zmielą też kości tych, którzy je w ruch puścili?

Average Poles by and large are not happy with their present situation. Recent uni grads and young people in general (highest unemploymetn figures), OAPs (small pensions, high prices of everything), workers whose workplaces have gone bust... A decent society is one which provides a decent lfie for as large a cross-seciton of people as possible, not one that creates and caters for a caste of chosen elites. Until refcently the US was pretty much such a country where 85% or more had a fairly decent life, were fairly satisfied with their situaiton and were fairly decent citizens.

The educated man pictures a horde of submen, wanting only a day's liberty to loot his house, burn his books, and set him to work minding a machine or sweeping out a lavatory. "Anything," he thinks, "any injustice, sooner than let that mob loose." He does not see that since there is no difference between the mass of rich and poor, there is no question of setting the mob loose. The mob is in fact loose now, and--in the shape of rich men--is using its power to set up enormous treadmills of boredom.

--George Orwell, from Down and Out in Paris and London, 1933

That is a great paradox indeed, worth a seperate thread.


That was a disgrace, really. Kamiński sort of glorified a murderer responsible for the deaths of thousands people. Isn`t it funny? Right wingers condemn Jaruzelski for communist repression but glorify their own kind as long as they killed communists. Sick.

I'll start one when I find my book - amazon.com/Polish-Revolution-Solidarity-Third/dp/0300095686

As far as I'm concerned, Solidarity weren't much better than the Communists for seeking a regime in that their own were protected while others were free to do as they wanted. It may be slightly skewed by Solidarity's acceptance that they weren't going to get a regime change, however...

Have we finished similarities?

How about differences?

1
Jaruzelski supported communism, Pinochet capitalism.

Again a heaten lecturing Chrisitians about Christianity?! Their ilk love to latch on to the forgiveness and mercy bit but conveniently forget that that hinges on CONTRITION AND REPENTANCE. Jaruzelski never even as much as apologised for serving the Evil Empire that killed his dad through cold, stravation and overwork; he never apologised for being a NKVD informer in postwar Poland, for not attending his own mother's funeral for the sake of his career, for martial law (repeating his broken-record 'lesser of two evils' mantra), the 1970 massace or sending troops to quash the Czech freedom struggle.

I see that you're also in need of some Biblical teaching -


Wrong, as the Bible says :


In short, Jesus makes no reference to requiring "CONTRITION AND REPENTANCE". Sorry Polonius, but your Biblical knowledge appears to be comparable to your knowledge of other religious texts - non-existent.

A little reminder is a good thing, no matter where and who it comes from.


Sorry, the Bible is quite straightforward about it - you must forgive not 7 but 77 times. There is nothing about contrition and repentance. Simple. It is read at least once a year during mass service.


I think he did apologise for Polish participation in 1968 events. He also apologised for bloodshed during martial law. And when a guy struck Jaruzelski with a brick in the head (Jaruzelski landed in hospital for a few days) , he forgave the perpetrator and didn`t sue him.


Jarosław Kaczyński sent his brother to die in Russia for the sake of his career. Did he ever apologise???

Yeah sure, he had a crystal ball that never lies.

2
Pinochet died, Jaruzelski holds on.


3

It seems Pinochet is guilty of causing deaths of thousands while Jaruzelski of hundreds. Chilean coup de tat gave way to veritable massacre of Chilean leftists. As I said before, when I lived in communism, I enjoyed the fact that communists were persecuted.

Today, I pity them and their families.


4

Economy is a great difference. Most experts believe that Pinochet`s reforms (though drastic ones) allowed Chile to become one of the wealthiest countries in South America in the longer run.

Jaruzelski`s attempts to reform the communist system were hopeless and when he was giving up power, Polish economy was already completely ruined.

This is one of the great falsehoods about Latin America, the truth is that the fascist dictators ran out of options, their economies had been destroyed and they wanted to be rescued.

Yes, I also come across such opinions. But they are less popular than those about good results of Pinochet`s methods in the longer run.

coup d'état


and GRACES OF AVANT-GARDE
nytimes.com/1986/05/26/world/1000-churches-rise-in-poland-adding-graces-of-avant-garde.html

POLISH CHURCH AWAITS POPE, BEWILDERED BY ITS NEW VIGOR

MICHAEL T. KAUFMAN, Special to the New York Times
Published: June 07, 1987

The clergy is growing here. There are now more Roman Catholic seminarians in Poland than in any country in the world. A third of all newly ordained European priests are Poles. More churches are being built in Poland than in the rest of Europe.

Jaruzelski was a communist indeed.

Kamiński told the BBC's Polish service that this was the most important meeting of my whole life. Gen Pinochet was clearly moved and extremely happy with our visit.

Having in mind of Jaruzelski's catholic education at the school of Marian Fathers of the Immaculate Conception of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary and his positive, pro-church politics, look my previous post, he is more entitled to the gorget embossed with an image of the Virgin Mary than general Pinochet.

Moreover:

Why is this book ? Have not been said enough about martial law , its authors , or not enough of a dispute about the legitimacy of Polish pushing this tragic episode in its recent history ? Memories of the daughter of General Jaruzelski to these questions do not match . Monika Jaruzelska not take to grips with opponents of her father, defends the decision to announce against the Polish flag on television screens December 13, 1981 .

It has no ethos or pathos - Jaruzelska emphasizes in the preface to the book " The young lady companion ." - Anyone who expects a glorification or political reasons , which should be an obligation daughter communist dictator may feel disappointed - he adds.



W co się bawić? W co się bawić?
Daleka pora na pytanie to, czy bliska,
Lecz w końcu przecież trzeba będzie je postawić,
Chociaż na razie w oku tli się śmiechu iskra

Więc, chociaż wszyscy są szczęśliwi
I nic nie sugeruje zmiany,
Niech, proszę, jednak Was nie zdziwi,
Że jestem trochę zadumany

Any particular reason for Polish in this thread??? I can`t see it.......

Just to create a diversion... and as a metaphor of games and plays of sundry people.

Nonsense. Stick to the topic and don`t pollute threads with off-topic songs, please. If you need diversion, go to the cinema, concert or pub, whatever.... :):):)


Of course he was because he supported communism for nearly all his life. And the fact that Church was so strong in his times means nothing - it wasn`t Jaruzelski`s merit but Polish peoples` power and ability to resist.

Who art thou, then? Part of that Power, not understood, Which always wills the Bad, and always works the Good?

Faust:

Nun gut, wer bist du denn?

Mephistopheles:

Ein Teil von jener Kraft,
Die stets das Böse will und stets das Gute schafft.

Maybe the other way round?

Who art thou, then?

Part of that Power, quite mad, Which always wills the Good, and always works the Bad?