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Polish history is 100% glorious


Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Aug 2010 #151
Yeah, point taken about Kielce. However, the pogroms there were distorted by historians. It should always be remembered that it wasn't the fault of the Jews that Hitler came looking for them. Many Poles might have felt that the Jews were responsible for bringing the Nazis to Polish territory.

Many people just strike out due to anger, often in a wayward fashion. As Bono once said on Acrobat (Achtung Baby), 'I know you'd hit out, if you only knew where to hit'.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
18 Aug 2010 #152
We shouldn't downplay their achievements and should always see the broader context in which they were won.

Aren't Poland-bashers, like Harry, worse than someone who may favorably color Polish history a little?
Most folks who take pride in their homeland tend to view and promote it with rose-tinted glasses. Is that so wrong, really? What's the harm?

I say bashing is worse. Because there seems to be some sinister agenda afoot motivated by hatred...
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
18 Aug 2010 #153
Aren't Poland-bashers, like Harry, worse than someone who may favorably color Polish history a little?

No. And it's not "favourably colour Polish history a little", what these ppl do, it's outright denial and lying of some events that actually took place and are documented. And they deny it because it doesn't fit in their perspective concept of a glorious Poland. And that is just as bad if you want to talk in terms of good and bad. When faced with facts they just say that it's all lies, preferrably Communist lies as the Communist are the favourit clothing hanger for all faults. Ppl need a scapegoat - nothing really changes. But I think it's just part of the coming of age of Poland. In time it will learn to accept her history in full with the good things AND the bad things. Give it one or two generations. But your remarks show that you're not ready yourself - check the wording again and you will know. And besides, history is not meant for propaganda, history is the science of what happened.

Edit: and when ppl come to terms with the past, perhaps that story that the Nazis were left-wing will disappear, although the right-wing will keep on claiming that to shift blame. But it's the biggest nonsense I've heard in years. And I come here two and a half years, so that says sth :)

F*ck history! History is useless

If ppl don't learn from it, it's pretty useless.

you will never get to know how was it really like

No, as long as there's no time machines, we will never know. And time travel, alas, is impssbl. It helps to think in time/space though.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
18 Aug 2010 #154
When faced with facts they just say that it's all lies

That pretty much sums up what people like you and Harry do.

Ppl need a scapegoat - nothing really changes.

Scapegoating Poles is your favorite past time, when will you ever take responsibility for what the commie Jews did instead of blaming Poles all the time? You won’t even consider it for all the Jews are angels according to you therefore can’t do wrong. Besides if you did acknowledge those facts you could not be the victim so when presented with the facts you just deny it and lie about it or simply call it a lie, because that does not sit well with your agenda. There were plenty of bad Jews and the commie ones were the worst of the lot, talking of coming of age I guess you will never do that, you just can’t grasp that concept or acknowledge the facts so you have the need for a scapegoat.

history is not meant for propaganda, history is the science of what happened.

Agreed to the statement in general but when presented by the likes of you it’s definitely not the facts nor the interpretation of those events in light of the facts, it’s strictly for propaganda sake, shock value and to divert the attention from current events or to justify them, so no one looks at the terrible things Jews are doing in Israel for they are the oppressed. Playing the victim card all the time is getting old and some casual readers of this forum are catching on to the game you’re playing.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
18 Aug 2010 #155
history is not meant for propaganda, history is the science of what happened.

Sure. But when one attempts to make history seem worse than it was, for whatever reason, this propaganda is worse than someone who may present it more favorably. And motive matters.

My first statement stands; bashing is worse.

And the Left today sure resembles the Nazis more than does the Right. ;)
zetigrek
18 Aug 2010 #156
history is not meant for propaganda, history is the science of what happened.

Of course it is. In every country history is used to reach political goals and for that they bolds one fact and supress other... whenever its needed.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
18 Aug 2010 #157
That pretty much sums up what people like you and Harry do

For you goes the same comment as I gave MediaWatch.
I have no patiences and tolerance for idiots like you anymore. Why don't you go blame it all on the commies? At least you know how to do that right and it so nicely distracts yourself from what everybody else already knows. The rest of your post has no relevance whatsoever to what I said earlier, it just shows your anti Jewish mentality.

My first statement stands; bashing is worse

Of course, after all, why would you want to admit that what those "Poland-bashers" say might actually be true? No, it's easier to make things a bit bearable as the shock of the fact that it wasn't all as glorious as you guys think it was might kill you someday. Better postpone it while you can, for it will come, it's just a matter of time. Until then, keep it rosey-red and don't think that Poles could ever done anything bad; after all, they were ALWAYS the victims? How can ppl who are every god-given area be the victim of sb or something, be the the jerries, the commies, the prussies, aussies, russies or alien invaders from the planet XLK-974, do ever anything wrong? They are all innocent lambs and all the others are evil wolves.

One Polish historian, I forget the name, said:

"Poles have a tendency to think that everything that happens to them is the worst and want everybody's sympathy, while on the other hand they are totally insensitive for the sensibilities of ppl outside of Poland. When sb points their finger at some circumstance, it's all too easy answered -that's a Polish issue, you don't understand."

I think that says it pretty much all.

Of course it is. In every country history is used to reach political goals and for that they bolds one fact and supress other... whenever its needed.

I Poland perhaps it's still used like that. In most other countries they have grown over it and acknowledge that what they glorified in the days of national identity-forming wasn't quite true. Admitting guilt is part of the growing process. A number of reactions on here is proof that some haven't yet.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
zetigrek
18 Aug 2010 #158
I Poland perhaps it's still used like that. In most other countries they have grown over it and acknowledge that what they glorified in the days of national identity-forming wasn't quite true. Admitting guilt is part of the growing process. A number of reactions on here is proof that some haven't yet.

Did you heard about Muzeum Wypędzonych case? It's seems that this phenomenom its not only polish problem...

A number of reactions on here is proof that some haven't yet.

The number of reaction here are just from ppl of one background - right-wing pseudopatriots. The other ppl don't involve in historic discussion because they are just not intrested in it at all, they are laid-back and their blood pressure doesn't increase easly so they don't have any compulsion to correct everyone who write something about poland which is wrong or unprecise...
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
18 Aug 2010 #159
Did you heard about Muzeum Wypędzonych case? It's seems that this phenomenom its not only polish problem...

I didn't say it was a problem ONLY in Poland. There are more countries who still do that, but in most countries they have come to terms with the past. And no, I haven't heard of that particular case. But I can name you Dutch cases which deal with the matter and you probably would never have heard from them. Pieter Geyl's Groot Nederlandsche Gedachte (Pieter Geyl's Greater Netherlands Idea) was such a case. It has been rebuked since long. Nowadays those sentiments don't play a role in Dutch history-circles anymore.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
zetigrek
18 Aug 2010 #160
I didn't say it was a problem ONLY in Poland. There are more countries who still do that, but in most countries they have come to terms with the past. .

I don't believe that. Did you heard about german-french textbook for history classes?
trener zolwia 1 | 939
18 Aug 2010 #161
why would you want to admit that what those "Poland-bashers" say might actually be true? No, it's easier to make things blahblahblah

I am no Poland apologist. I admit to having a limited knowledge though healthy respect for what all She's been through. But when the bashers with their questionable motives get to twisting Her history, that does no one any good -except the haters.

We go through the very same thing here in the states, perpetrated by haters bent on blaming America for everything bad in the past, present and future.

Again, sinister twisting is worse than a little patriotic coloring (Although played straight and honest right up the middle would be best, that's not likely to ever happen, anywhere.)
TheOther 5 | 3,711
18 Aug 2010 #162
But when the bashers with their questionable motives get to twisting Her history...

One could as well argue that some of our Polish patriots here are twisting the history of other countries just to make Poland's past look better.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Aug 2010 #163
Well, Poland successfully staved off various threats and fought against the Islamisation of Europe many years ago :) It has always tried to preserve Christianity yet is liberal enough to allow Tatars the right to practise their religion.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274
18 Aug 2010 #164
I must say that (History) is just one of a few topics that bring this forum down, the Poles banging on about how hard they have had it through history, always talking about it like there is no future for themselves or their country.

As a foreign visitor to this forum, if i did not have a clue about Poland and Polish people i would think that all the Poles needed was a bottle of vodka, a history book and a loaded gun for when they had finished with the other two :)

Forget the S**t and move on to more positive things, the future, what you are going to do in life and what your nation can do!!!!!!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
18 Aug 2010 #165
I don't believe that. Did you heard about german-french textbook for history classes?

Still are only 2 countries more. There are, give or take 193 countries in the world :)

How do you determine who is who?

Can I give that answer? :)

But seriously, you did get what I was aiming at with my post directed at you, right?

Forget the S**t and move on to more positive things, the future, what you are going to do in life and what your nation can do

I said that many times. But what the heck do I know, I'm a Jewish/Communist/Antagonist of the Polish state who fails to see the gloriousness only and yet points also at some less glorious periods in time. If you would do that about Dutch history, I'd be happy to respond to that. I'd be not so very happy about the less pleasant parts, but given the fact that any country has less pleasant parts, I'd discuss about it. I for certainly wouldn't deny them or call the person who points them out a Netherlands-Hater or pour insults on top of them just for pointing those epoches out. But it seems here that some of the visitors feel personally attacked when you point out less beautiful and glorious episodes. But like I said many times; it's all part of their coming of age. They've been under the ice cap of Communism for 50 years after WW2, they didn't have time like us to put things in perspective yet, but I believe they will, someday. They have the bad luck that most of Europe had indeed the chance to move on after WW2, whereas they hadn't. It's just starting. Ppl like Jan T. Gross are a first sign that change is happening in the way the Poles look at their history. There's nothing wrong of being proud of one's history, but this shouldn't lead a person to be completely blind for the not so beautiful epoches.

Anyhow, it's the usual suspects who are on their hind legs.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
David_18 68 | 982
19 Aug 2010 #166
There's nothing wrong of being proud of one's history, but this shouldn't lead a person to be completely blind for the not so beautiful epoches.

Yes indeed. But stop lie to yourself for a minute ok?

In the other thread i cryed abit about brits, what kinda response did i get? HAHA you arrogant people are hilarious telling people not to get offended, but YOU guys are the worst whainers i've ever seen on this planet!!!
MediaWatch 10 | 945
19 Aug 2010 #167
Will you pls get the fcuk out of here? Pls fcuk off. You already made it clear that you don't like Jews many times before and fail miserably to see the point. So now just fcuk off.

No you please fcuk off. All you do is come to this forum and try to find fault with the Polish people as far as the Jews go, while conveniently ignoring all the bad things Jews have done in Eastern Europe. Like Stalin's Jews. If it wasn't for MOST Jews CHOOSING to live in Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS and Poland ALLOWING JEWS to live in Poland (despite all other countries rejecting them) to have families and develope their culture, most Jews today would not be here.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Aug 2010 #168
Yes indeed. But stop lie to yourself for a minute ok?

Oh look it's the dwarf shouting sth again. You got some nerve for sb who claims that Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians and English are not related to eachother.

In the other thread i cryed abit about brits, what kinda response did i get? HAHA you arrogant people are hilarious telling people not to get offended, but YOU guys are the worst whainers i've ever seen on this planet!!!

What are whainers exactly? The same as fainders? Or remainders?

All you do is come to this forum and try to find fault with the Polish people as far as the Jews go, while conveniently ignoring all the bad things Jews have done in Eastern Europe.

Oh look, yet another irrelevant, but standard, factoid is being thrown at the table. Jews have lived for 100.000 years in Poland, so that gives the Poles the right to just go and kill them off. Oh, there they are again: the Stalin Jews! Ladies and gentlemen, can I pls have your attention for.....THE STALIN JEWS!!! Pls give them a big hand!

Can you come up with sth else that justifies Pogroms? And copying me doesn't help your case. Oh sorry, forgot that Polish ppl have no fault at all. Darn! It's hard to find ppl that are so excruciating good on this planet, but ppl, listen up: we've found them! They are called Poles and they live in Central/Eastern Europe and about everybody else in Europe is taking advantage for years of them.

My dear boy, you have shown that you didn't understand what I was saying and come up with the same arguments you come up with over and over again, yet it's no explanation or justification. But the point you so gloriously miss (after all, everything Poles do is glorious, so when they fail, they also fail glorious) is that I was explaining Ironside about cause, consequence, long-term reverberations and repercussions and how they are handled in contemporary history. But it's ok. Now just pls go away and don't interfere anymore. Thanks.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
A J 4 | 1,088
19 Aug 2010 #169
you would **** anything wouldn't you !?

Hey now, that's a little harsh..

:S
Ironside 50 | 11,042
19 Aug 2010 #170
The difference between this and the Kielce pogrom was that the Kielce pogrom took place AFTER WW2.

I fail to see difference during or after, I would think that after the WWII people were more prone to violence.

And if this isn't clear enough as to why the Kielce incident was so important in the image forming of the European about Poles as being anti semite, then I give up. I cannot make it much clearer.

Well, I understand significance of the Kielce incident for forming image of Poles as being anti-semite in the eyes of the western world.
What I question is the validity of such qualification based on one incident in given circumstances you seems to ignore completely and which I stated before in my previous posts above.

One thing newspapers and public opinion something else historians and professionals.

Perhaps; but they were still Poles.

So, what - Poles or not Poles it make no difference in circumstances I have described.

And the question whether or not this incident was used by the Soviets in order to give Poland a bad name abroad, is not really relevant in this respect.

No, the question is whether or not this incident wasn't orchestrated by Soviet GRU or NKVD, such action, provocation, assassination were done before, during and after WWII - there was nobody better than Soviet secret services.

Who gained from Kielce accident? Soviets!

I didn't describe the events as such, I described the perpetrators. And like I said it were Poles that committed them.

It actually reminded me some move or book about case in court where false witness were nailed by defence lawyer and the line was more or less - you were wrong about time, place, many details, the order of invents, about what happened but about one and only one fact you are certain from the beginning that it was accused who did it !

Don't take me wrong, I don't say you are false but did you for a moment thought that your view of the Kielce incident could be not quite ....as it really happened?

I mean you are so sure....Why?

I'm waiting for materials you promised!

I-S (Over hill, over dale,Thorough bush, thorough brier,Over park, over pale,Thorough flood, thorough fire, I do wander everywhere.)
David_18 68 | 982
19 Aug 2010 #171
Like i stated before, they are related but not that closely ;)

Gosh you revealed my dark secret!!!

IM A DWARF!!!!

What are whainers exactly? The same as fainders? Or remainders?

I meant wainer.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
19 Aug 2010 #172
Who in the world except a sick anti-Polish Bigot like yourself would ever suggest that "Poles had the right to just kill them (Jews) off"???

There you go again with your racist anti-Polish Bigotry trying to insinuate that Poles in general were "going around killing Jews off". Well if we are to use your logic then Jews must be the biggest idiot lunatics to CHOOSE TO LIVE IN POLAND FOR ONE THOUSAND YEARS.

According to your sick anti-Polish mind Poles are going around killing Jews off! LOL
So what is the reaction all these hundreds of years of Jews to this sick anti-Polish propaganda notion by Jews like you? "Hey lets all CHOOSE to LIVE IN POLAND TO LIVE"!! Yeah us Jews should go CHOOSE to live in that country Poland "where Poles are killing off Jews!"

Do you have any idea how sick and deranged you are with your anti-Polish hatred??

As for Jews, why they were all just saints and angels!

That's why and Israeli newspaper wrote an article on the millions of people communist Jews were responsible killing
Stalin's Jews

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Oh but don't tell MareaG that. That doesn't fit into his Jewish chauvinist idea that Jews are all wonderful.... and non-Jews, especially Poles, are just all terrible horrible people just looking to be bad anti-semites. LOL

For the record the Polish governments for the past 2 decades have been tripping over themselve kissing ass to Israel and apologizing to Jews for perceived anti-Semitism by Poles. This is while Jews never apologize for all the terrible things communist Jews did in Poland and Eastern Europe while collaborating with Stalin.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
19 Aug 2010 #173
Ppl like Jan T. Gross are a first sign that change is happening in the way the Poles look at their history.

Gross is a Jew living in America, by mere chance born in Poland, he probably shares this view with Harry for whom the place of birth is just a coincident and in no way describing of who he is, so it’s interesting that you build him up as a Pole and bring him up as someone of authority who speaks for all Poles, try again. Perhaps you should read what authors like Nowak has to say on that subject , where Gross is plain wrong in his opinion. Bias Jew like Gross represents pro Jewsh point of view in no way to be mistaken as Polish.

There's nothing wrong of being proud of one's history, but this shouldn't lead a person to be completely blind for the not so beautiful epoches.

If you read some of the works done by other authors on the subject, other than Jewish authors that is; perhaps than you would start to question that Idealized image of a Jew as the victim you have and see what atrocities were committed by the Jews on other nationalities who happen to fall under Soviet domination starting in 39, long before isolated Kielce incident and arguably hundreds times worse.

But the point you so gloriously miss (after all, everything Poles do is glorious, so when they fail, they also fail glorious)

Soviet-Jews failed gloriously in their quest to achieve true communism and now people like you are attempting to hide the fact that they ever existed and what those Jewish zealots did, often more committed to the cause then the Russians. Nationalism had no role to play in that society and had to be stamped out at any cost, Poles happen to be in their way and were the first obstacle to overcome in their attempt to spread that disease all over the world; now that you are reminded of those events you deny them and call it all lies at best or simply anti-Semitic.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
19 Aug 2010 #174
Lets put aside the Poles for a minute.

If you were to ask proud Russian nationalists "Who started Bolshevik/Communism in Russia?"

The answer would NOT be the Russians.

Maybe MareaG should ask some Russians who started Communism in their country.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Aug 2010 #175
Who in the world except a sick anti-Polish Bigot like yourself would ever suggest that "Poles had the right to just kill them (Jews) off"???

It's gets better and better. Not only do you miss the point repeatedly; it now turns out that you also lack the capability to recognise sarcasm.

And for the rest you're like a broken record. Repeating the same over and over again, still gloriously failing the point over and over again.

I have no time to go into this deeper today, but admittance is the first step to acceptance and acceptance is needed in order for Poland to move on and as long as there are idiots like you and others who keep justifying these incidents, be it based on

myth A: the Jews were commies, a myth that apparently still lives today, remarkably;
myth B: the blood libel (where the hell did this nonsense come from?);
myth C: Poles have been good to Jews and yet Jews betrayed them;
myth D: Jews welcomed the Soviets (especially a popular myth in Eastern Poland - only partly true but represented as whole nations of Jews were welcoming the Russian troops) and:

myth E: the most remarkable myth of all: Jews helped round up Poles for the slaughter.

As long as ppl base themselves on rumours and myths like the above there will be no acceptance as there is no admittance. None of these myths are true and is based either on the Catholic Church or the gullibility of the Polish masses, have to figure that out yet, but I will, given enough time.

In the meantime, you and those other idiots that keep repeating the same irrelevant BS, pls refrain from doing so and come up with arguments that aren't covered, based or motivated by any of the 5 above mentioned myths. As long as you don't, I won't take you seriously.

Edit: Poles love to victimize themselves. But rememember, even victims have to take responsibility if they commit crimes.

I meant wainer.

Still wrong :) The word is whiner.

>^..^<

M-G (breaktime is over; back to busy again)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
19 Aug 2010 #176
MediaWatch is a plastic pole who is also anti-Russia, anti-EU and anti-semtic. What a suprise!
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
19 Aug 2010 #177
And if this isn't clear enough as to why the Kielce incident was so important in the image forming of the European about Poles as being anti semite, then I give up. I cannot make it much clearer.

What is so 'important' to you that bunch of Ruskies killed few Jews (leaving the other Jews in the other part of the very building alive!!) and blame the whole thing on 12 random POLISH bystanders, who were later executed, as a matter of FCUK-t?

anything wrong; any person who is supposed to have done something wrong and been Polish was actually Jewish/Communist/German/Ukrainian/Belorussian/non-white/gay

Cuz we don't shift the blame; if WE did it, we did it. Everybody agrees.

And since we DID NOT do it, we have some arguments to back up our claims.
Of course then you do dismiss those claims as 'antisemitic' or 'antibritish' or 'antifag's' and here the carousel starts all over again.

I HEART POLAND

**** you all, anti-polish trash
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Aug 2010 #178
What is so 'important' to you that bunch of Ruskies killed few Jews (leaving the other Jews in the other part of the very building alive!!) and blame the whole thing on 12 random POLISH bystanders, who were later executed, as a matter of FCUK-t?

See, this is the type of ignorant, vile nonsense that is thrown against the evidence and proves that anti semitism is still very much alive.

And since we DID NOT do it, we have some arguments to back up our claims.

Gee, evidence however shows that you did do it, though. But of course, they are all liars.

**** you all, anti-polish trash

Have you ever considered professional help, excruciating loser?

Behaviour like this is well described and thank God all decent Poles are embarrassed to bits and disgusted by the deeds and words by some of their fellow countrymen.

MediaWatch is a plastic pole who is also anti-Russia, anti-EU and anti-semtic. What a suprise!

Doesn't surprise at all :)

>^..^<

M-G (still waiting for the Americans - must be a hold-up at the airport or sth)
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
19 Aug 2010 #179
Ppl like Jan T. Gross are a first sign that change is happening in the way the Poles look at their history

LOL, wrong AGAIN.
This dude first wrote bunch of groovy books on how the Poles fought the Nazis and how great they were. As I read the opinions of the historians on those books, they were pretty good. But.

But!
No-one wants to read about the good Poles, so sociologist Gross came up with a different approach.

Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad Poles.

And voila!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Aug 2010 #180
No-one wants to read about the good Poles, so sociologist Gross came up with a different approach.

Hm, in all your non-existing wisdom, how would you explain his latest book?

The reaction to Neighbours and Fear were proof that he must've hit some truth, a truth that has been hidden away as dark secret from the past. The harder the resistance, the more truer it is. Common psychology.

>^..^<

M-G (hates waiting)


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