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Polish and German Borders-Justice for Both Countries or not?


czerwonymbarone 1 | 4
5 Sep 2013 #1
Hello all

I have been looking at this forum for a while, I did register one account but didn't use it, so now here i come with my definitive account.

I know there are similar threads to this one I post now but I wanted to know the exact-and personal- opinion of members of this forum regarding the actual borders between Poland and Germany. I want you to tell me your PERSONAL opinion, not the opinion you can have regarding the actual political situation. I personally- As a person who loves Poland and Germany at the same level, while it may be strange- support the 1937 borders. Which make Germany to have cities that are birthplaces of German culture ( Königsberg) and Poland has most of its actual land plus its ancient eastern territories like Lwów.

So what do you think, are the actual borders of Poland and Germany fair? Which ones do you prefer?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
5 Sep 2013 #2
As a person who loves Poland

If you genuinely love Poland, you would know the sheer impossibility of re-integrating the former Polish territories in the East to Poland.
johnb121 4 | 184
5 Sep 2013 #3
Sorry, but if this is how you spend your time, you need to get a hobby. Nothing is going to change. During and after the war there were huge movements of population as ethnic Germans and ethnic Poles were forced to go west and Ukranians were forced east, so populations and borders sort of match.

Living in the past - or trying to re-invent the past - never does anyone any good. Or do you think Britain should take back America, while at the same time returing Scotland to the Scottish?

Poland was a huge country, a very advanced one, but things changed. Get over it.
4 eigner 2 | 831
5 Sep 2013 #4
while at the same time returing Scotland to the Scottish?

hmm, that might actually happen ;-)
OP czerwonymbarone 1 | 4
6 Sep 2013 #6
Actually I spend my free time playing rugby and I only use internet in the morning and at night.

I accept that things have changed, I don't want to provoke another war, but if Scotland can become independent, why the borders of Poland can not change?

Why people are so afraid of changing the history?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
6 Sep 2013 #7
We happen to like Wroclaw and Szczecin and see no reason to give them up in exchange for a vast, poor territory that would require far more money than Poland has even to bring it up to Polish standards.
jon357 63 | 15,208
6 Sep 2013 #8
It's far too late to change anything now. Generations have passed since the borders were moved.

I wish though that some of the towns and villages would revert to their old names - you can't wipe out centuries of history by changing a street sign and one nice things about my own country is that a village or town can have a name with German, Danish, Celtic, latin or French roots.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
6 Sep 2013 #9
I could be wrong, but I think there aren't actually many made up names - Gorzów comes to mind as being made up, but for instance - Jelenia Góra was Hirschberg before. Zielona Góra was Grünberg, too. Then you get situations like Walbrzych, where -

According to the city's official website, the early Polish name of the settlement was Lasogród ("forest castle").

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walbrzych#Etymology

It's interesting stuff - they seem to have used older German names as the basis for the new Polish name.

I've always wondered - did people in Polish call Breslau - Wrocław or not before 1945? It was home to a sizable Polish minority between the wars...
Crow 139 | 8,307
7 Sep 2013 #11
i understand your approach. You, as myself, are man of peace.

Borders are fine but, we aren`t satisfied with them. Lethal methods for changing the borders aren`t acceptable but are even disgusting. So, among peaceful tools for affecting the borders i once proposed something like radio on some global frequency (for example as Deutsche Welle or VOA)- Polish Voice or Slavic Voice.

i am sure, with improved standard of living in Slavic countries, with progress,... power of a new radio Slavic Voice may greatly contribute that our people, that was in the past assimilated by the Germans or French or Brits,.... again, found scent and return to the Slavia. Then, with Slavs on the both sides of the border,... who would ask for borders.

Slavia

SLAVIC VOICE
Torq 32 | 2,897
12 Feb 2019 #12
Merged:

NPD's official stance on Polish-German border



Someone mentioned in one of the threads that the revision of Polish-German border is one of official aims of NPD as stated in their program. I asked for links, but since then the posts have somehow disappeared, so I decided to check it with NPD themselves through their FB @en.npd site.

That what I sent: "Good morning. I read on an Internet forum that your party advocates the revision of Oder-Neisse river border between Germany and Poland. It seemed to me highly unlikely, so I decided to check it with you: what is your stance on the current Polish-German border - do you think it should be revised? Looking forward to your reply. Kind regards.".

Let's see what they reply - watch this space. :)
Tacitus 2 | 1,032
12 Feb 2019 #13
Well, a very quick google search found this entry on the official NPD website. Two NPD politicians recently held a speech in Görlitz:

Weil es von den Rednern der etablierten Parteien auf ...

Translation:

Because politicians from the "established" parties refuse to talk about it until today, are we politicians from the NPD required to mention the legal status of the territories east of the Oder and Neisse, which are German territories under Polish adminastration. Though this topic has disappeared from public discourse, it should nevertheless be deliberately ignored.

Link:

npd.de/gemeinsam-europas-herausforderungen-meistern-gemeinsam-erinnern/
Torq 32 | 2,897
12 Feb 2019 #14
I don't know about Germany, but in Poland politicians from every possible party very often make statements that are not at all in line with official party programs/policies. Perhaps that was the case with the NPD politicians you mentioned.

It's always safer to check at the source, so let's see what NPD's official reply is (that is IF they decide that the "untermensch" deserves an answer).

If their reply is affirmative (that is they DO want to revise the border) then I will have some more questions to them. Should be fun. :)
Weimarer 8 | 442
12 Feb 2019 #15
The NPD is a non party. Very small and in no parliament.

My grandma comes from a village near Breslsu. Its name was Kuhnersdorf. I would love to visit some day but dont know. She talks often about it. I know their garden had a pond and i think i propably could find it.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
12 Feb 2019 #16
I would love to visit some day but dont know.

It can be quite a sad experience, as many pre-war buildings are in a state of ruin.

Was she one of the ethnic Germans expelled after the war?
Torq 32 | 2,897
12 Feb 2019 #17
@Weimarer

But perhaps they will be in German parliament one day, so it's always good to know their official stance.

The village you refer to is called Konowice nowadays - a lovely place, as are so many other Lower Silesian Villages (Stara Kamienica/Altkemnitz, Kopaniec/Seiffershau or Kromnów/Krommenau to name just a few). I was born in Jelenia Góra/Hirschberg about 110km from Breslau, and I am absolutely in love with Lower Silesia. It is full of both German and Polish heritage, and you should definitely visit!

It can be quite a sad experience, as many pre-war buildings are in a state of ruin.

Some of them are, but some have been rebuilt/renewed, and there are so many things worth seeing that I really don't think it would be a "sad experience".
Weimarer 8 | 442
12 Feb 2019 #18
@delphiandomine

Yes, she was 7 years old. She talks alot about it. How she used to walk on that frozen lake. How her doll broke there. Also the day they were forced to leave. Her father was mayor of Kuhnersdorf and this helped her family to start new in Thüringen.

I dont know. She never wanted go visit Kuhnersdorf.

If i go there and look around, people propably would be mad at me, seeing a young german walking around and check the area. They propapbly would think im s criminal.

@Torq
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
12 Feb 2019 #19
Some of them are, but some have been rebuilt/renewed.

I agree, but some places are just so badly ruined that it's a painful experience to see. Have you ever been to the area around Bogatynia? It's such a wealthy area because of the mine there, yet some of the border towns are in such terrible condition close to it. My "favourite" is a place called Zawidów - it paints Poland in such an awful way, though the Czech side of the border isn't much better.

I was born in Jelenia Góra/Hirschberg about 110km from Breslau

I do like Jelenia Góra, and there are so many interesting things within an hour or so of the city. The whole Karkonosze range is by far my favourite Polish mountain range too.
Torq 32 | 2,897
12 Feb 2019 #20
Also Karpacz/Krummhübel, Lwówek Śląski/Löwenberg in Schlesien and other small cities are true gems. I really like living in Gdańsk, but Lower Silesia is where my heart always remains. :)

They propapbly would think im s criminal.

:D

Or they might be a lost AK (Heimatarmee) unit on the prowl... or a polar bear! :) Sorry, but it's always funny the picture that people in the west have of Poland. Once, my Irish friends, before visiting Poland, asked me if we have both cold and hot water in the tap. Imagine their shock when they landed in Gdańsk, and spent some time staying at my place and visiting the city and nearby areas.
Torq 32 | 2,897
13 Feb 2019 #21
I have just received an answer from NPD - here's what they said...

"Dear Mr. Z****ski,

The NPD has manifested in its program that the violent separation of German territories and the cruel expulsion of the there living Germans after WW II was against international law. Of course Nationaldemocrats keep up the relatedness to this historical homeland and are interested in the developement of this landscape as well, regardless what influence on this we have at present or not.

However, neither does this issue lead the daily political agenda of the party, nor shall it ever escalate to a violent conflict. NPD aims for a future bilateral solution between Germany and Poland as neighbours. This has NPD made clear in a recent commentary to the party program.

Maybe both countries one day will find solutions within, for example, a more autonomous status of Silesia like it´s demanded also by some Polish.

History is open-ended, but nobody wants again European fratricidal wars! Despite historical burdens NPD is striving for a good relationship also to Polish Nationalists - that´s how it has to work. Not to ignore or forget the history, but shape the future!"

Looks like they are not really hostile towards Poland, and not as nazi as some people would seem to think.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
13 Feb 2019 #22
a more autonomous status of Silesia like it´s demanded also by some Polish.

Is it?

Looks like they are not really hostile towards Poland, and not as nazi as some people would seem to think.

The proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing! :)
Torq 32 | 2,897
13 Feb 2019 #23
Is it?

A tiny minority gathered around a marginal organisation (RAŚ).

The proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing! :)

Right. So, probably when I check my email in 2030 it will say:

"Dear Mr Z***ski,

ve vere actually just kidding 11 years ago, sorry about that. Ze land in question muss be our again!

Kind regards
NPD"

:D
Ziemowit 13 | 4,125
13 Feb 2019 #24
people propably would be mad at me, seeing a young german walking around and check the area. They propapbly would think im s criminal.

Most probably that would not happen. On the other hand, I often read stories about people welcoming former German owners and gladly showing them to their old houses (you should bear in mind that the new owners were displaced from the eastern areas of Poland).

A most incredible story I have ever heard (from a colleague at work) was about a German man who got to know a Polish woman and after forming a liason with her, they both moved to her house which house in Krynica Morska (Kahlberg in former Ostpreussen) was precisely the house where... one of his parents was born before the WW II. The couple - I am told - live happily in that house to this very day!

There are quite a number of videos on youtube now where very elegant German old ladies who did not leave Lower Silesia after the war (they married Polish men) talk about their life before 1939 and after 1945 in the same Lower Silesian village or town. You will find them quite interesting, I suppose, should the ladies interviewed did not talk in perfect Polish (the films have no German or English subtitles).
Weimarer 8 | 442
13 Feb 2019 #25
It would not work. My grandmother never had the intention to go there. Too much bad memories.

And i? I dont know...im in my early 20th and have no real connection to it. Im born in Thüringen and know Kuhnersdorf only from telling. I sure would like to visit but who knows.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,125
13 Feb 2019 #26
And i? I dont know...im in my early 20th and have no real connection to it.

At that age people usually do not feel much connection with the past. This definitely comes later on in life. If you wanted to set foot in Lower Silesia, I would recommend a visit to a major town which in this case would be Wrocław (Breslau).

At the age of 17, I decided to visit (East) Berlin which was my first self-reliant trip abroad (be it with a friend). I had no previous connection to Germany whatsoever, but was probably inspired by my stay on an international summer youth camp in a big forest/national park near Warsaw where I met two German peers who were there along with people from Poland, Slovakia and Bulgaria. They were nice guys from Berlin (Thomas und Eike) who later on even came back again to Warsaw for a visit. With them there was a DDR teacher who patiently explained to everyone who wanted to listen how East Germany was going first to level out with and then triumphantly surpass the high economic level of life enjoyed by West Germany. From today's point of view it may seem rather amusing, but at that time nobody could have guessed that DDR would one day be devoured by West Germany. Ha ha ha, what an incredible time it was!

Last year I decided to re-visit the German capital for the first time since then. And I have found the city incredibly different, so much different that it was not "my" Berlin at all, but some other city! But in general, I was feeling much more at home in what was once East Berlin than in former West Berlin where we were actually staying.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
13 Feb 2019 #27
At the age of 17, I decided to visit (East) Berlin which was my first self-reliant trip abroad

Ziemowit, how was the border control?

(in general, please tell us more about East Germany, it's one of my huge passions in life)
TheOther 6 | 3,818
13 Feb 2019 #28
it was not "my" Berlin at all

I'm nor surprised. West Berlin was special before the wall came down. The people had a rebellious attitude (what they called the "island mentality") and the city was full of life. The clubs, the art scene and everything. Really cool. Especially around the time when David Bowie and Iggy Pop were in town. After the reunification, everything changed dramatically and Berlin was turned into a faceless metropolis.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
14 Feb 2019 #29
@Weimarer "My grandma comes from a village near Breslsu. Its name was Kuhnersdorf. I would love to visit some day but dont know. She talks often about it. I know their garden had a pond and i think i propably could find it."

"If i go there and look around, people propably would be mad at me, seeing a young german walking around and check the area. They propapbly would think im s criminal."

Are you sure it was Kuhnersdorf near Breslau? Not Kunersdorf?
My family (Polish) is from the area you describe, just outside Wrocław/Breslau and I tried to look up German names of the current, Polish names of many villages there but can't find Kunersdorf in that area?

I found a Kunersforf that's called Kunowice nowadays.. ...but that village is nowhere near Wrocław/Breslau.. (see map below)

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunowice

As far as you worryng about going back "because they'd think you're a criminal" - free you mind. My family has welcomed children and grandchildren of the original owners of the house they used to live, and they did it several times. The first time they came for a visit was in the early 80s (commie era), the most recent visit was about 5 years ago.. (the original is still standing but it's been remodeled and rebuilt..)
Torq 32 | 2,897
14 Feb 2019 #30
I found a Kunersdorf that's called Kunowice nowadays.. ...but that village is nowhere near Wrocław/Breslau.. (see map below)

We already sorted this out via PMs. I confused Kunowice with Kłębowice (which is near Breslau); the place Weimarer was looking for is indeed the one near the Oder river.


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