Polish-German alliance.

I'll agree with you there.


Yeah, but you see, I would never murder innocent civilians, no matter what my circumstances. Where there is a will, there is a way. This Bulgarian man you speak of, he had other choices. For one thing, he could have fought the allies on his own, in a personal revenge. Once he joined the SS, a criminal organization, he himself was aiding in killing innocent civilians.

And why would you help to kill innocent civilians, who had absoulately nothing to do with your family dying?

I didn't say that. Filios grouped every single W-SS member together as evil monsters. My point was to show from at least one example that wasn't the case.

Sokrates. Continue the circle of violence if it makes you feel better. I can't even really bother to respond to your comment.

Well it was a theoretical question not meant for an answer. He didn't kill civilians and it has nothing to do with avenging your family's death.

I'd lend you a hand in such an undertaking.

Alright well I'm done talking to you two. You can't even remain civil. I don't wish you any harm or ill-will, only that one day you'll wake up...or read a book. One of the two.

Whats there to be civil about? You're romanticizing members of the single most evil organisation in human history and saying we owe them respect? For what? They've been murderers and barbarians, SS veterans do not deserve any positive sentiments whatsoever.


I read a LOT of books, thats exactly why i'm saying people who were SS members deserve nothing short of being spat in the face.


I'm not avenging anything, for what SS did the very participation in this unit is an act of utter dishonor that can NEVER be washed away, it does not matter if the guy did not kill anyone what does matter is that he was a member.

Its like arguing that its ok if i'm a member of a pedophile circle because i didnt rape any child i just helped transport them.

Following that, not a single German soldier from WW 2 deserves respect becuase of what they were fighting for and what they were defending, SS is something special though.

As for Wittman? He deserved to be summarily executed for being a Nazi enthusiast, he was an ace tanker i give him that but i'm not going to respect him, he could be a ten times nobel winneer and being a Nazi supporter makes all other aspects of him or any other human being in such position irrelevant.

Also we're not being drummed into our heads "evil, evil, evil" SS was evil, very.

Well...that's the core of it..."in your mind".
That's why there can't be any discussion about it, a matter of view more.

I just find it interesting that the most objective and acknowledging books and documentations come from the anglo-saxon room, the ex-enemy.
google.com/search?hl=en&q=Michael+Wittmann&btnG=Google +Search&aq=f&oq=

They pay those soldiers their respect as they deserve it...what some Fili or some Sokrates thinks about them doesn't really matter. :)


Yes, Klingenberg who saved Belgrade from destruction was surely enormously "evil".
A soldier who never broke any law of war like Wittmann is incredibly "evil"!

Manno...you are so brainwashed!
Or you just don't know the meaning of "respect"? (It doesn't mean "liking", ya know)
:)

PS: Sokrates, I doubt you read lot's of books about the SS or the german soldiers or you wouldn't spout such idiocy!
Millions of Germans fighted in the Wehrmacht and the SS and most of them (Wiesenthal center said more then 98 % never took part in any crimes or atrocities) were just damn fine soldiers!

But k98 is right, it's without any use to try to talk about that with people who don't even know the meaning of respect for an enemy!

Germans do:
(A small german cemetary for polish soldiers 1939)

"Here rest 5 valiant polish soldiers"

PS: But I recognize this behavior from your sports...whenever you win you can only gloat, never congratulate your adversary or respect them for a good fight...no...only gloating and trying to humiliate him...

What is it with you folks?


Yes, he was a German...not a Pole...how mean of him!

:)

But don't tell me...the polish flyers who shot down bailed out german flyers helpless hanging in their ropes are for sure great heroes...as a Pole it comes as a birthright, right?

Right!
And of course ALL polish flyers are criminal bastards because of those fews, aren't they?
They were after all all members...

Boah ey


What? Should we send another one or two soldiers to take your capital???
Did he laugh himself to death? :):):)

No he was a member of SS, i believe that all veteran SS members need a boot to the face, regardless of nationality, Volksdeutches included if that makes you feel better.


Yes they were heroes, not because they're Poles but because Germans fought to defend and further the single most evil regime this earth ever knew which is why killing Germans who defended the 3rd Reich was the right thing to do, if they prevailed hundreds of milions would be killed.


Not at all, killing German soldiers was the right thing to do since they worked to defend and extend the Third Reich, killing people who defended their freedom and biological existence was wrong.

Therefore everyone killing German militant members was morally sound whereas Germans fighting for the Third Reich were not, dont focus on nationality it has nothing to do with the matter.

Sure, as long as it's a Pole doing the crime he is still a hero....do you see now how useless
any discussion about this is?
And how worthless your judgement about german soldiers is for me and most others?

A war crime is a war crime, regardless which sides does it!
Some Poles have a long way to go still...


YOUR focus on nationality has EVERYTHING to do about it!

Ask the Brits about Rommel, their enemy, but oh how they respect and even admire him.
And also Wittmann and many others.....think about that!

Everyone who fought against Nazi Germany was a hero, everyone who killed Germans who served Nazi Germany was a hero, everyone who worked to stop this unbelievably evil regime regardless of nationality was a hero, even Stauffenberg.


Most others who? Erica Steinbach or other expelees trying to rewrite history.


I do not consider executing concentration camp guards a war crime.


Some Germans never moved at all.

...have a nice day!

findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?GRid=11947&page=gr

One of the NON-GERMAN comments:


THAT is respect for an enemy!

He was a Nazi this nullifies any and all his other achievements, be glad people who took Germany were either Stalin with his political agenda or Allies with their whorish approach to the entire matter, if it was up to me i'd respect all those noble SS, Gestapo and Wehrmacht soldiers with summary executions while your children and women would hear about them through loudspeakers digging graves for concentration camp victims with bare heands.

Responsibility through participation, never been truer than in case of Germany, every German soldier who fought for the 3rd Reich fought to defend concentration camps, death camps and einsatzgruppen, these people deserve no respect, ever.

Well....regardless what you think about it and wish it weren't so they still get it!

And now let's stop this useless discussion...

Seriously Bratwurt. Don't argue with these people. It's mean because they're so brainwashed it's almost sad to see the things they spew.

I really hope for the best Sokrates. Try not to get yourself hurt.

Yes, its very sad. Now please go spread your propaganda elsewhere, you Nazi apologist.

You asked how you weren't being civil. You just answered your own question.

How the flying fudge am i brainwashed? I've read dozens of books, perhaps even hundreds, accounts of Germans included, Keitel, Zimmerman, Bernstein, i've enough knowledge to have an educated opinion beyond a moronic redneck like Randal.

If i'm not civil its because you assign the privelige of respect to men who fought for an evil regime, there's difference between fighting for Germany and fighting for Nazi Germany, everyone who defended her was guilty.

Lets rephrase this, every German man and woman who fought in or supported German armed services during WW 2 is guilty of mass executions, concentration camps and all the horrors Hitler brought, they're guilty and responsible because they helped to defend, support and extend them, as such no German pilot, soldier or navyman who defended Hitlers vision can be considered worthy of respect regardless of his military achievements.

IF my argument is not coherent please point it out.

Yep and every citizen of the United States is guilty of throwing Japanese into concentration camps of their own. Every Soviet (including the ones who fought the Germans in WWII) are guilty of supporting a Communist regime that killed far more than the Nazi regime over a longer period of time. And every Pole is guilty of of supporting their troops in Afghanistan who are accused of killing civilians. *rolls eyes*

I'm pretty sad that I even responded to you...

And keep Randal out of this. You don't need to fling insults around at other people.

Maybe it's really a polish thing...being unable to pay respect to a worthy adversary...

The Brits can do it, the Americans do it, hell even the French can do it, not at least the Germans (even to the so called "Untermenschen")...only the Poles are unable to be that civilized.

Interesting insight..but not really important!

*shrug*


:)

I’d be happy to.

You said that Jew babies should be murdered for the crime of living where their parents decided to live (called them “viable targets”) and then here you’re you rail against Nazis with whom you clearly share their twisted beliefs. And you call this “educated” and “intellectual”. You’re a mess. Lol…

There, that was easy.

BB i can tell you here and now, German army of WW2 was an awesome fighting machine, from commanders all the way down to a common soldier but i cannot and will not consider them respectable because they fougt for the Third Reich and because they commited to its temporary success they, each and every one of them share responsibility for every single horror visited upon the Europe by Hitler.

As for West? First of all they did not experience the rough side of Nazi Regime in the way East did and second there's the whole cold war thing which affected history down to the books and modern perception.

Nope, I still think it's a polish thing...somehow correlates with the polish urge always to demand only the most and greatest respect for yourself (and pouting if you think you don't get enough of it)...always crying loudly and throwing tantrums about every true or percieved slight...gloating about the tiniest sporty success as if you won a world championship and trying to talk down your adversary...

Not a pretty picture Sokrates! But that is your problem, not the Germans nor anybody else's!

Keep giving us those Allied quotes. The fact is, that these British officers, these American officers, even the French, all did not have a brutal occupation. Some of them didn't even lose any loved ones in. If they did, they were killed in action, like a real soldier. They would surely change the tune of their song if they had brothers, sisters, children, parents, grandparents, who were either executed like dogs, or gassed in the chambers. So what do you think? Would they still have respect for their adversaries?

That Mr. Bob Hufford. I'd wager he never saw the corpse of a young child. Never visited a concentration camp.
Courageous.. maybe, honor? Honor for what? Defending a country which was trampling through any country which stood in its way, and killing innocent civilians? Do you expect a Polish soldier, after going through all that, to hold the German soldier in esteem?

You just don't get it.....

No. I guess I don't.

B.B. Do you mind looking up some Russian officer quotes, with similar things to say about the German army? Any quotes by a Slav would do, actually.

When they write in english why not? :)
But the problem with the Russians (and most Slavs come to think of) is that for decades they never could truly tell what really happened...the communist regime and their story line about the "Great Patriotic War" smothered everything...

And now most are dead!

I mean..there are the "saintly" heroic partisans...which were neither saintly nor heroic but often enough brutally killed their own peasants or let them starve to death.

And doesn't do the pics I posted make you think if all that stuff you got fed about the beastly Wehrmacht and the evil SS were not the only truth?

An SS soldier helping a wounded russian tanker? German soldiers paying respects to their fallen polish adversaries?
Don't fit the picture you have so cleanly, don't they....

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38374

I get it, you're basically saying that we owe brave and skilled soldiers respect irrelevant of their alliegiance while i claim that soldiers who defend and make possible stuff like concentration camps and generalplan ost do not deserve respect.

Poles fight together and for a gov which made the rapes and the massacre of Haditha and Abu Ghraib possible...do all polish soldier suck now?

Once, after an especially successful fight against russian tanks, what saved the day for his unit (again), his superior asked Wittmann if he had a wish, it would be granted...Wittmann only said that there are still wounded russians on the field and asked for medical help for them...

What a bastard!

Is there any comparison between Haditha and WW2? If your noble troopers would win i wouldnt even be here because most Poles would be dead/germanized/on Syberia in work camps.


Did he ask for medical help for the victims of Treblinka? Belżec? Sorry but one noble act does not erase the fact that Wittman worked towards extending biological extermination of whole peoples, you want to respect him fine, everyone's entitled to an opinion but i sure as hell am not going to respect any Nazi trooper from WW2.

Of course...as you yourself throw the "collective guilt" around that freely every lone polish soldier is also responsible for the massacre in Haditha just because of being a member of the same coalition!

What's good for the goose...


I don't think so.....some things just don't fit, you know?
But this was an unwinnable war anyhow...the third Reich used war not for
a means to an end but as a reason for it's existence...


You still don't get it...


I think we can compromise on that! :)

Sh!t, I am becoming very nervous when I hear the profane discourses about "atrocious partisans" and "mild SS solders" from german citisen's lips. Are you out of your senses? And what about thousands and thousands of burned villages and towns?