70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies

I bet it is your favorite position, you sick pervert.

Yes, to say prayers for your corrupted soul! Ha!!!

That`s what I wrote in 2013:

However, it is difficult for Poles from old Kresy regions to reconcile when Ukrainians (from Western Ukraine) openly honour the organisers (both physical and moral) of the massacres

What has changed since then? A few years later I saw how the Polish gov of independent Poland honours the murderers and Nazi collaborators from the Holy Cross Brigade. And I realised that Poles are no better than Ukrainians coz both nations honour their dubious "heroes" and we have no right to demand or expect anything from anybody.

The chronology of events clearly shows it was Poles who started colonising the East, not the other way round. So, it is natural that Poles have to make the first step aka apologise and compensate.

@Ironside

Let me count them...

Sick pervert
manchild
boneless slime
cvnt
gender-confused pussy

I would rather be a racist and a xeno-hater.

Nobody in the world, except Poles, has ever heard of the Holy Cross Mountain Brigade. I had to look them up on Wikipedia now, and I'm afraid I represent a very small minority of people that are interested in the minutiae of what was happening in the East during WW2.

Many people have heard of the 14th SS Grenadier Division "Galicien".

The Holy Cross brigade had a maximum of 1,200 people, and typically less than 800 - according to what I read.

The 14th SS Grenadier Division "Galicien" had over 11,000 men, and this was but one Ukrainian formation accused of engaging in massacres. One of many. There was also the Battalion Ukrainische Gruppe "Roland". There was then the Bataillon Ukrainische Gruppe "Nachtigall". Add to this dozens of UPA-OUN formations, and paramilitaries from other movements.

I read that the Holy Cross Mountain Brigade helped the Germans identify where Jews might be hiding. But I also read, and this is a direct quote from the Wiki:

"According to the Polish Institute of National Remembrance, there were no documented cases of Holy Cross Brigade soldiers directly murdering Polish Jews due to their ethnic origin."

I can't find anything about them ever massacring any Ukrainians.

Comparing a few thousand Poles that refuse to condemn the Holy Cross Brigade, to millions of average Ukrainians and hundreds of Ukrainian public officials that glorify the Banderites... seems somewhat strange.

If the best you can come up with is a battalion-strength formation which never really managed to perpetrate any kind of serious atrocity... then I struggle to view your claim of symmetry in crimes seriously.

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From what I understand, the Holy Cross Mountain Brigade was a collection of freaks, whose main crime was collaborating with the Germans in their search for Jews and not joining the AK.

Compared to them, the Ukrainians were much more willing to get their hands dirty - and they actually had the numbers to do it.

It was the concentration of local defense organizations that loosely cooperated with AK. They mainly were defending local people against all kinds of bandits and extraction by some Soviet, Jewish, and Polish banditry and if possible against German military police that liked to wipe a village or two just for good measure.
They were both against the Germans and Soviets. In the face of the Soviet front moving into the area, those members of the organization deemed to be known to Soviet intelligence decided to move westward towards Western powers - it was about 1944/45.

To that end, that brigade was formed, and they marched west, communicating with the Germans and telling them they would be fighting against the Soviets once they regrouped. Something they have no intention of doing.
Thanks to that they love all those people and are linked with American forces. End of story.
Stupid commies like pawian as usual are yapping nonsense.

I will now update my list...

Sick pervert
manchild
boneless slime
cvnt
gender-confused pussy
stupid commie
yapper

I guess the brigade had major issues with staffing.

Even if we assume some kind of super anemic battalion size of 300 men, you still don't have enough to make even 3 battalions.

A typical German battalion had more men than this entire "brigade".

Soviet battalions were smaller than German ones, but a Soviet rifle brigade still typically had 3,500 to 5,000 men.

This is 3 rifle battalions, a machine gun battalion, an artillery battalion, a mortar battalion, an anti tank company, a recon company, a signal company, an engineer company, and a logistics company.

Calling 800 men A BRIGADE, is nonsense.

Again, compare it to the 14th SS Grenadier Division "Galician", which was a full blooded division. It doesn't matter that it was destroyed in just two days of fighting.

It wasn't a regular brigade. They had issues with weapons.
Secondly, it wasn't formed to fight on the front but to evacuate those people/soldiers who had been exposed to Soviet intelligence, and contrary to naive AK people they knew what was going to happen once the Red Army and NKVD took over.
the organization that the brigade represented had about 75 000 people during the occupation, while AK had about 250 000 - 300 000.

@Ironside Ehhh, what?

This makes no sense.

The AK had 400,000 men under arms in 1944. Some estimates say 600,000. That's half a million men, in uniform, and with a rifle in their hands.

How could such a large army be supported by an organization with 250,000-300,000 people as you say? It had to be millions, and with a further many thousand abroad, as well as foreign states providing support.

The First Polish Army (Soviet created), had 200,000 soldiers.

It seems illogical to focus on such a microscopic formation with 800 men, and compare it in any way to the massive formations that actually mattered.

No, my numbers are number of soldiers they could call to arms. Those organizations cooperated now and then and often those numbers are put together by historians.
You missing the point here.
Is not military achievements or their strength it is about their attitude. they were vilified by the Soviets and commies, sure after some time AK was just AK but they were lied about, presented as some kind of traitors, and so on.
The only real issue with them was that from the start to the end they were telling Soviet Uninien and Commis to go F themselves. And called collaborators in Soviet Poland traitors and scum.
It has a political significance not military.

I see.

Still strange.

Somehow, the AK, under a complete blockade, managed to outfit corps and army-sized formations. I don't know all the specifics of how they did it... but I suppose it was part smuggling, part local manufacture, and part capture of war trophies.

On the other hand, the ultra nationalists supposedly fully collaborated with Germany - and yet still couldn't find more than 800 lousy rifles?

Something is fishy here. It seems they were not limited just by weapons supply, but that their proportional popularity was much weaker.

Looks more like a manpower issue.


Ok, I understand.

they weren't that well equipped and as far as I remember there were only two full brigades that fought as a unit.
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The issue here is they didn't.

@Bobko, the Holy Cross Brigade was a kind of rogue unit - it was one of the units of NSZ that didn't follow the order to join the Home Army (AK) and didn't submit themselves to the Polish government in exile in London. NSZ were nationalists - they were the third Polish underground force in terms of numbers (75 000) after the biggest Home Army and the second biggest Peasant Battalions.


There were (read the section "Mordy na Żydach"):

pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brygada_%C5%9Awi%C4%99tokrzyska

BS, they had it coming for a different reason. You are stupid like F!
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I learned something new today, thanks Iron.

After reading what you wrote, I read a little further and found this:

"In the end, despite all efforts, most Home Army forces had inadequate weaponry. In 1944, when the Home Army was at its peak strength (200,000-600,000, according to various estimates), the Home Army had enough weaponry for only about 32,000 soldiers."

I was going off the "400k to 600k" numbers when I wrote about corps and armies, but you are right - they only ever fielded brigade sized formations.

This means that the only real Polish army, actually equipped up to its nominal strength, and with a proper assortment of light and heavy weaponry on its balance was the Soviet Berling Army. About this formation I know much more, and can definitely say it was 200,000 actual fighting men - operating at the same time as one organic force. They provided a large proportion of the forces that stormed Berlin.

Another reason for me to be puzzled at why Soviets are such "bad actors".

But back to the AK - the lack of weaponry, in a way, makes things even more impressive. If you consider what they managed to do in the Warsaw Uprising, and in places like Lublin and Wilno - then they must have been recycling the same weapons, while personnel would get repeatedly "digested".

Of course it was. That brigade was on the fringes of Polish society and not even part of the Polish Underground State. According to AK reports the attitude of Polish civillians towards the Holy Cross Brigade was hostile.


If after all this time on this forum, all the info and explanations you're still "puzzled" then you're truly a hopeless case.

So two incidents.

Here is the first (translated):

"Dębica (forester's house), post office Pińczów. A two-day stopover without any events, apart from an action against thirteen Jews hiding in Górki Budziszowickie near Mały Książ - four teams of forty soldiers under the command of the head of the "Bursik" company went in submarines to the above-mentioned town, where, after rescuing thirteen Jews (a couple children, old ladies, elderly women, seven men of approximately the same age), beating up the farmer with whom the Jews were staying, took them a few kilometers from this town to a clearing and shot them, leaving them where they were."

...and here is the second:

"They brought a Jewish family from the town of Sulków to my village [Czaryś near Włoszczowa], consisting of three people, including a 4-year-old child (a boy). This family was placed in the granary of Stępniak Stanisław, where after 3 or 3 days the mentioned Jewish family was taken to the Czaryski forest near the village of Wola Czaryska, and shot there."
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Are you seriously comparing one hundred thousand murdered Polish women and children to a literal few dozen murdered by this brigade?

It's a mess, and not justifiable, but still... to compare the two?

It also says there that this was done a formation that LATER joined the brigade.

@Bobko, I'm not comparing. I'm correcting your false info.


Still, those soldiers did it.
And two murders (including the second one that you quoted) was done already by the Holy Cross Brigade.


Btw, I have family in these parts of region.

The Russian and English Wikipedia do not mention this, and only the Polish one does. I wasn't engaging in any misinformation, instead I simply did not read this.


If I give you list of each incident where the OUN-UPA killed Ukrainian Jews, it will be longer than all the other threads in this forum.

Probably French fascists and Dutch fascists killed many times more Jews in instances like this,

If this is why Pawian wants to apologize first, then he is truly not a very smart baboon.


Sorry Admin, but I deleted the translated text. It was machine translated, and it was terrible - to the point of being unreadable. I wanted non-Polish speakers to be able to follow the conversation, but it wasn't useful at that point. For some reason Google Translate does a terrible job at Polish (Russian it does quite well).

It would take me a long time to personally translate the text.

Ok - I see you translated it again. But you see yourself, "submarines", etc.

You see Bobko the biggest challenge in Poland is dealing with morons like them i.e. pawian and Paulina.
As you can see I have no patience with those pathetic moralizing oversensitive ego-driven punks.
that doesn't even recognize that things like the context exist.

I don`t care who heard about it in the world or not. Certainly Poles and Polesses with basic history knowledge did.

Where did I say they murdered Ukrainians???


Prove it it is only a few thousand, Mr Imperial Russian Manipulative Propagandist!! Ha!!!

Mr Imperial Manipulator, you wanna talk about symmetry? If Poles/Polesses erect a monument to a Chechen freedom fighter who killed 100 Russian barbarians in the wars of 1990s, will you keep your imperial mouths shut up and thank Poles/Polesses for their kindness coz they had an option to honour another fighter who eliminated 1000 Russians which is 10 times more. Will you be happy with the first option???

100 killed Russians don`t matter, only the massive formation of 1000 dead ones does. hahahaha


For what other reasons were Polish Jews murdered by ethnic Poles??? You probably meant money and property. Jews were considered rich and Poles/Polesses killed them to acquire some wealth.


Of course we are coz we stick to basic morals. If imperial Russians don`t. it is your problem. I can see you don`t understand simplest things which is quite natural coz we are Europeans while you are Asian barbarians.

Stop playing stupid, Mr Imperial Manipulative Propagandist. Poles/ Polesses should apologise first coz it was us who started colonisation of the East, not vice versa.


:):):) Yes, we are such coz we are decent people and apes. Simple. While you are a nationalist beast. If you lived during WW2, you would murder Jews and minorities with immense pleasure coz that`s your sick nature. Tfu!!!


You look for contexts to excuse your nationalist crimes by Poles during WW2 and before.
Why can`t you accept that Ukrainians who massacred Poles/Polesses also had their context??
Ha??? They simply wanted to live in a country devoid of Polish colonisers. It was their context.
Darling, why is the Polish context of murdering good while Ukrainian one is bad to you??? We should treat them equal to stick to basic fairness and keep balance in nature, shouldn`t we??


And that`s the view by Ironside and Gefreiter Kania and other crazy nationalists who twist, manipulate and overlook basic facts about Polish national expansionism, while at the same time they demand compensation from the victims of Polish crimes. Isn`t it amaSSing???

It is a very morally absolutist approach.

Only in such an absolute way, can a dozen murdered Jews, be equivalent to 100,000 murdered Poles. I understand - every life is sacred, and any killing is equivalent to the erasure of the entire universe. But... in the real world - proportionality matters.

You are not the Buddha.


Because it matters what you do with that context. That is, how you act. Poles acted one way, and Ukrainians acted differently.

During the centuries when Poland "colonized" Ukraine, as you say, some other countries colonized half the world. Nobody says it is acceptable for Brazilians to ethnically cleanse Portuguese, or for Mexicans to genocide Spaniards. Here - context is also important.

18th century cannot be compared to 20th century.

You talked a lot and said nothing.

What is your point?

So you will gladly accept a monument to a freedom fighter who killed 100 Russians instead of the one who killed 1000. I see. :):):):)


It isn`t even imperial Russian philosophy. It is utter BS philosophy.
Hey, what is your job in which you don` t have to think at all??? :):):)


Wow, Imperial Russian Propagandist excuses Poles for their deeds in Ukraine. AmaSSing! Stinking Russophiles like Kania will happily swallow it. Decent Poles and Polesses won`t. Why? Because we know that imperial Russians dream of Polish participation in partitioning Ukraine.

Poland's "colonization" of Ukraine, over the centuries, does not provide an excuse for ethnic cleansing of Poles in the 20th century by Ukrainians.

Is that simple enough?

Pawian's appellation to context, in this instance is not meaningful.


How can I be more clear than saying that a relatively minor atrocity by a peripheral Polish unit, cannot be equivalent to massive and systemic atrocities by numerous Ukrainian formations?


It has nothing to do with philosophy - you try to make it about philosophy. I am talking about mathematics.

You are trying to be philosophic talking about the "infinite" value of life.

I am saying that life can be counted, and compared.

LOL!!!! Bobko is a weird kind of guy,he seems sensible at times and then reverts to his "Russia is Great!" mode and he is quite creepy.....and then he tries to put Poles against Ukrainians...... sounds like typical Russian Propaganda to me!

In your Asian understanding, yes. In European, decent Polish one - no.


Go to Ironside for the explanation of the context. He is an expert. :):):)


He`s a true imperial Kremlin propagandist. Yuk!

Numbers matter.

100 killed Russians vs 1000 monument. You prefered to ignore that supposition. :):):)