Russian POW Camp records

My grandfather was with the 1st Signal Regiment in September 1939. They started out in Zegrze September 3 and went through Tarnopil and ended up at Czortkow September 17, 1939. From what I was told and what little I can find on the internet, they were captured by the Russians. I do not know what POW camp they ended up at but hoping the records, if any were made by the Russians have survived. Getting or finding the name of the camp will help to find out if the records on the prisoners still exist and are available for access. I do have a letter that my grandfather typed up for something else but it says nothing about being captured or released.

If your grandfather was not an officer, it is likely that he was filtered through camps and ended up within the GULAG system.

If he was an officer, he was likely executed at Katyn, Kalinin or Kharkov.

This Russian organization maintains a database for persons that been in the GULAG system:

memo.ru/ru-ru/collections/archives/structure/

He was not an officer. He was a corporal. I am hoping to find a back door, so to speak, that might substantiate his military service. He did survive the war and ended up emmigrating to Canada. All I know is that apprently he was released sometime before May 1940 and he was working somewhere else from May 1940 to August 1944 before relocating to Ulm. As for the gulag, I am not sure about that but will have a look. What you mention at the end of your post I will look into it. There is a part in the Katyn Forest Massacre headed by a Mr. Madden (1951) where it has 3 lists of some Polish personnel that were killed and buried at Katyn that were in Starobielsk,and a couple of other camps and I could not find any reference to officers that were from the unit he was with at the time he was captured.

You knew he was detained in Russia. Your timing is great-inquiring about your grandfather in 2025 while the West is at war with Russia.

To go from Russian POW to "relocating" to Germany, at the top of the war (August 1944!!!) - is a very strange story indeed.

Possibilities:

1) He was mobilized into the Polish First Army in the USSR, straight from the camps. Then fought his way together with the Soviet army back into Europe, and one day quietly escaped. But then how did he settle in Ulm? Weird.

2) He had become a German collaborationist, after Germany somehow reached his camp. This seems unlikely, but I am not able to say for sure. It's my belief that Polish POWs were among the first to be moved East ahead of the advancing Germans. I may be wrong of course.

It makes no sense that your grandpa was free by the middle of 1940. The first Polish POWs were not released until mid 1941, under the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement (July, 1941). That agreement led to the formation of the so-called Anders Army, composed of Polish POWs and deportees.

Living in random places from 1940 to 44 was not really possible - unless you are talking about Kazakh SSR.

I did not say top of the war. My grandfather spoke Polish, Russian and German. Going by what was told to me through family members that kind of made him somewhat useful. I do have 1 document that makes reference to the German Post Office in Lublin and that is where my grandfather worked from May 1940 to August 1944 before he was relocated to Ulm. As to why he was released just before May 1940 I have no idea.

Are you sure this was the case? I've looked at one of your other archived threads and this is what was stated:

"when I cross referenced the last point of location this unit was stationed at, Czortkow, Poland Sept. 17, 1939, it seems the Russians were in that area as well. This, also ties in with an unconfirmed story that an aunt told me that he may have been a prisoner and wanted to go with the officers of the unit but was prevented from doing so. One thing that may have set him apart and maybe be freed later was his ability to speak Russian, German, and Polish. The other issue is that I have not been able to find information on the web about either unit. Even if they had been assimilated or absorbed by another military unit in Poland there should have been something listed about the Signal Corps that was part of the Polish Armed Forces."

https://polishforums.com/archives/2010-2019/genealogy/military-temporarily-closed-way-69807/

He may well have been stationed there but you don't actually know if the unit, 1st Signals Regiment, was captured there or not. I would concentrate my efforts on finding out if this was the case. Without factual evidence you're making presumptions no matter how likely those are. If it was, maybe it's possible that he evaded capture by the Russians because it seems very unlikely that he ended up in Lublin after about 6 months of captivity rather than at a Soviet camp somewhere.

Do you know what was the name of that unit in Polish at that time?


What do you mean by "was relocated"?

Btw, did your grandfather have German roots?

To Feniks, Right now all I have is a letter that my grandfather wrote because he was applying for vet benifits. In this letter he mentions the 2nd unit he was with (1st Signals Regiment) and they started out from Zegrze on Sept.3, 1939 and ended up at Czortkow by Sept 17, 1939. Right now, there are no other documents to verify anything. My grandfather never spoke of what happened during this time. The story that was relayed to me from a relative was that he was captured, but my relative has a habit of lying. Another document I have is orders for my grandfather to go to Ulm August 1944. This document makes reference to a date of May 16,1940 in Lublin and is in German and I am not fluent in German. So why a short time as a POW I do not know. That is part of what I am tracking down and piecing his military records together. When I do a search for either unit that my grandfather was with nothing showing up as if both units did not exist. I got in touch with CAW and they could not find his military records and I do not know if either unit he was with had personnel records of their own stored somewhere and forgotten about.
To Paulina: Yes, He has German roots. His grandparents lived in Gostynin and are buried there. His parents and siblings were living in Elzbietow from 1890 to about 1920. Unfortunately I do not have the name of either unit in Polish. The document that I have in German shows that my grandfather was working for the Post Office in Lublin and that he was given marching orders to go from Lublin to Ulm August 1944. Since CAW is unable to find his military records, I wanted to see if I can find POW records on him to show military service

@gjene

Well, everything makes sense now. Almost.

Your grandpa was a Volksdeutsche. It's not likely he was captured at all.

So how do you expect to find any information about them?

That letter that your grandfather wrote when he was applying for vet benefits - where was he applying to? What does that letter say?


Get it translated then. Or for now take a photo and post it on the forum - we have German forum members, maybe they would have a look at this document.


That's my guess also.


Well, in theory I can imagine a scenario in which he did get captured, but was released thanks to his German roots. In May 1940 Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were still "buddies" and the agreements with the Soviet Union concerning the "Heim ins Reich" action were still in place I imagine. 🤔 That's just a wild guess though - I'm not a historian or an expert on such stuff.

There were some early-on exchanges of Poles between the USSR and Germany. I think it lasted exactly during that period - Sept 1939 to Summer of 1940. It would make sense that the Nazis would want us to hand back "German" Poles, though I had never read about this myself.

My understanding... more - was that the Nazis were sending us back Belorussians and Ukranians, and we were sending back Poles.

That is part of why I am looking into the possibility of POW records to find something about my grandfather. Since the CAW can not find his records in their files partly due to the fact the records could have been destroyed during the war. I also am not an historian. As for the vets benefits, I do not know where he was going to send it. That letter mentions when he got Canadian citizenship, that his 1st tour of duty was from 1919-1922 and he was honourably discharged and he received the cross of valour and that his 2nd tour was September 3-17,1939 and where the unit ended up. But he does not say if he was honourably or dishonourably discharge, if he went awol or was captured. As for the name of either unit, I have them in English, but not Polish. Since he got the Cross of Valour in 1922 after his 1st tour duty I thought there might have been some sort of record on file but no such luck. As for the document in German, I am not sure how to do that since I have not done it before with this forum.

Just use the "+ files" button you see in the top right, when composing a post.

I gotta say - your grandpa is an unusual fellow.

Participated in the Polish-Soviet War, and then in the Polish-German war, and finally somehow ended up in Germany during the end stages of the war. Someone should make a movie about his adventures.

I assume that the military commendations you are referring to in the first part are Polish ones?

To Bobko, yes, both medals my grandfather received are Polish ones. The 1st one he received is known as Krzyzen Walecznych. He got that from his 1st tour of duty from the 4th Sigmals Regiment 1919-1922. The 2nd medal he received is a round one with these words on the reverse side of the eagle Polska Swema Obroncy and that was when he was with the 1st Signals Battalion Sept. 3-17, 1939. On the card that came with the 2nd medal makes reference to 1 Pulk Lacznosci. To Paulina, as for the document I have in German that makes reference to my grandfather being employed in the Post office in Lublin from May 1940 to Aug.1944. I have to resize them without too much degradation in the upload quality.

Are you sure it's not the other way around?

Krzyż Walecznych (Cross of Valour) was established in 1920 but awarded also in the WW2 period and later. The "Polska swemu obrońcy" (Poland to Her Defender) medal was a memorial medal for 1918-1921 war, and as far as I know no version of it was awarded for 1939 campaign. Let me check...

...

Hm... OK, looks like there was a version of "Polska Swemu Obrońcy" awarded for 1939 campaign but it was a communist medal, established in PRL (People's Republic of Poland), and you say that your grandpa moved to West Germany before the end of the war (which is rather odd as well for a decorated Polish soldier).

Strange history...

.....how about a mixed family? At one time that shouldn't have been so rare as probably today....

Germoles???

*ducks and runs*

Ha! Always good to have somebody with functioning brain at hand. Good thinking, BB. There were plenty of mixed families or even soldiers of purely German heritage (up to generals and admirals) in Wojsko Polskie in 1939.

I'm presuming that this is the regiment your grandfather was in:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Pu%C5%82k_%C5%81%C4%85czno%C5%9Bci_(II_RP)

However, I can't find any mention of them being at Czortków in September 1939.


To upload them on this site requires that the file size is no bigger than 150 kb.

Not strange... but nearly impossible.

Something does not add up.

All sorts of people, during that period, had strange biographies - and this is one of them.

Paulina - Since my grandfather was living in Canada, I would assume he was applying for vet benefits here and hoping they would coordinate with their counterparts in Poland.
Torq - I have included a scanned copy of the documents for both medals. You will notice that the cross was issued for the 1919-1922 service and the wojska medal for the 1939 tour of duty. Yes I am aware of the fact that some cross of valours were issued during the 2nd war but for my grandfather that was not the case.Since the direct approach failed to get his service records, I am trying to find a chink in the armour and hope there is a duplicate record some where because of the medals, being a POW or where he joined up with either unit

• 
  crossofvalour.jpg
  
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  wojskamedal.jpg
  

@gjene, we're probably won't be able to help you here. The only thing that comes to my mind is maybe finding families of soldiers who were in your grandfather's unit - maybe they would know more.

There's a good Polish forum about World War II - maybe try asking there for any help with your search:

dws.org.pl/


He got it in 1948, so it looks like it was the commie one. But why does it say "London"?

No, sorry, this medal isn't a communist one. On the contrary... It was awarded by the Polish government-in-exile in London:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_Wojska

Aleksander Michał Froelich...


... bingo.


Very interesting! It looks like your grandpa's medal was awarded in London by the legal structures of Polish Armed Forces in exile. Polish government in exile resided in London until 1990.


Yes, my bad. *blushes*

From an older thread:


Have you tried this route?

It looks like this is the right section of the forum:

dws.org.pl/viewforum.php?f=76

Thanks Paulina. I tried to get in touch with the Sikorski Museum, but did not get anywhere with them at the time. I will have to try again. In the letter my grandfather wrote in regards to vet benefits (written in March 1964 since he turned 65 in Sept of that year), he made mention of where he signed up which was Zegrze Sept. 3, 1939 and the unit started from there and went through Rembertow, Lukow, Biala-Podlaska, Miedzyrzecze, Kobryn, Pinsk, Rowne, Brody, Zloczow, Tarnopol and ended up at Czortkow by Sept. 17, 1939. I don't have any idea as to the names of those he served with when it comes to the 1st Signals Regiment. To Bobko and Torq, I hope these town/village locations kind of help you to trace and connect to some unit.

Have you tried the Bundesarchiv or Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt)?

There could have been a transfer as a forced laborer, or reassignment via the General Government postal service.

If he was mobilized as a POW laborer, there may be Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) records.


I mean everything seems right, what is there left to find?

On September 3rd, two days after Germany invaded, your grandfather enlisted. The location of his enlistment was Zegrze, a known Polish military garrison and communications base north of Warsaw.

Him being a part of the 1 Pułk Łączności, makes sense, because it aligns with Zegrze's role as a center for signal troops in the interwar Polish Army.

Then, based on your description, it seems his unit undertook a rapid eastward retreat or redeployment across central and eastern Poland as the German invasion progressed from the west.

It seems that they were retreating virtually non stop. Because your grandpa served in a communications unit (signals regiment), he would've been involved in maintaining radio, telephone, or courier links between command - and this would been crucial during fast-moving retreats. So then it is likely that he moved in the vanguard of the retreating army, arriving first - before other formations.

It looks like he never spent more than a day in any given location, before he had to move again.

That final date is significant - September 17 is the day the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east, under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Because this path ends near Czortków, it's plausible that he was actually captured by the Soviets - as your relative claims.

After his capture, he was likely immediately deported into German controlled territory, as an ethnic German.

He must have appeared strange to the Russians. A 40 year old German corporal - somehow lost in a sea of Poles.

.....our all central european history in one person....super interesting. I hope the guy finds some more infos!

@Bobko

I can't retract the way they were thinking. Would that be that we can win with Germany on our own, and we are certain that Stalin is not able to launch an offensive against Poland?
It must be something along those lines. Anything else would make them incredibly stupid.