Jewish Roots of Poland

I have to correct you on the history. The word "Ashkenazi" in classical Hebrew simply means "German". The Ashkenazi Jews first formed a distinct identity in the rhineland in the early middle ages, and then spread to other parts of germany and france. In the late middle ages they started migrating Eastward to poland and later to Ukraine and Lithuania. The movement was from west to east until the 19th century when it reversed.

You can see this trend by looking at where the famous ashkenazi jewish scholars came from. Gershom Ben Yehuda was born in Metz in the 900s. A century later there was Rashi in Troyes and his grandchildren were the Tosafists who lived in Worms, Mainz and Speyer. (They were descendants of Jews who migrated from Italy and elsewhere.) Later scholars were in Rothenberg and Frankfurt. In the rennaissance period the big Jewish scholars were in Prague and German cities. You start hearing about big Polish and Lithuanian Jewish scholars in the 17th century. That's when the Hassidic movement was born. The greatest scholar of the 18th century was Elijah of Vilna. From then, the center of gravity for Jewish scholarship was Lithuania and Poland till WWII. During the 19th century Ashkenazim drifted to western europe the US and Palestine. The main centers of scholarship are now in Israel and the US, reflecting where most jews live.

Always, never facts always guessing:)


Yeah he made that mistake but Jews were present in Poland for over a hundred years then, he just took them in larger numbers but of course you didnt know that just like you dont know anything much :))))

Oh come on. Jews wasn't so important in Poland. Minority like any other. Like Tatars or Kashubs or whathewer. They lived they quiet life somewhere on the border of society, and that' all.

On this Forum it seems that Polish-Jewish relationship is the most important part of Polish history. Well it wasn't. Polish history was interesting enough without a "Jewish question" (lol)

Maybe Poland really was a "Israel of the Middle Ages" - a very important place for diaspora. Centre of the Earth.
But still - Jewish minority was tiny, unimportant and one of the many on the map of Poland.

For years I have always believed the name Ashkenazi was farmer, but I had also heard them referred to by other Jews as German Jews so I stand corrected.

Most of the Polish Jews I met were Hasidic Jews either Polish or Polish descent very nice people when you got past the unfamiliar way they dressed. I remember one guy I got to know and liked, I asked him why they only employed each other. He said because of their religous observances no Christian employer would put up with it so they employed each other. The reason I asked him this question was because some of the guys were saying "bloody Jews they all stick together" they only employ each other. Low level anti-semitism the type of crap one used to hear every day without an ounce of thought behind it. Like a statement I read on this tread of someone who visited a mans home who happened to be Jewish and had paintings on his on his walls. And his statement was "Whats this with the Jews and paintings" well a bit of news for you mate lots of people buy paintings. I'm an Irishman and I have paintings hanging on my walls, some thing that gives me and others pleasure.

You're right, true, forgot that - I knew there was a distinct group living in Western Germany, but I was living in the assumption that they only became Ashkenazi after they merged with the Khazars, a Turkic ppl that was converted to Judaism. But hey, I'm descendent of Sefardic and as far as I know Sefardic didn't have that much love for the Ashkenazi. But hats off, it was sth I omitted where it should not have been. Mea culpa.


This goes to show that you're really not the smartest tool in the shed. Otherwise you would have known that it's just an expression. But of course you wouldn't know that as there are so many things you don't know. So far for the ocurrence of Sokidokie. Now back under your stone.


Actually the biggest group of Jews in NL were Hasidic Jews although the numbers were close between the Ashkenazi, Sefardic and Hasidic Jews.


This is spot on, my friend. Anti semitism is sometimes very covert and the seemingly most harmless remark can contain a lot of it.
You're certain you have no plans in the nearby future to come visit Dublin? How long haven't you been in the Dirty Auld Town? :) If it's a long time, I am sure you'd be surprised of all the changes it has gone through. This may sound strange coming from a Dutchman who lives here relatively short, but in the 6 years that I'm here, I've already seen quite a few changes. Though I have to say that I inherited my dad's eye for detail. Mentality wise things did change quite severely over the last five years. The Irish, always known for their welcoming character have adopted a form of racism that is kinda unnatural to them. I have to admit though that it's mainly young ppl who are guilty of that. I do understand it with the huge influx of migrants in the last decade, but still, I think it doesn't suit them well. Luckily not all young ones are like that and most older ppl are still very welcoming and just plain nice.

>^..^<

M-G (welcoming)

Were they the ones the dutch police gave away to the Nazis out of their own accord or the one dutch people denounced along with Anne Frank and her lot?:))))

Sok, please go back in your hole unless you intend to contribute something meaningful here. You're such a drag ... :(

Truth hurts; this image does not fit well with the story you would like to present to the world about anti-Semitism in Europe.

That wasn't the point. Everybody in the Netherlands knows that there were (and still are)elements in Dutch society one should be deeply ashamed of. And we are the first to admit that. Unlike Sokidoki and his evil dwarfs, who not even don't admit that there was an aweful lot of anti semitism in PL, but he doesn't feel sorry about it and on the contrary, even defends it. And that is a different matter. And besides that, the ones who collaborated with the Nazis have been tried thoroughly with the death penalty temporarily being re-introduced since over 100 years after the war.

And another thing: nothing has been proven that we already know. So it's time for Sokidoki and his mentally challenged friends to go back into their cave where they can dwell over the greatness and glorious nature of PL. Oh, and he's managed to even make anti semitic remarks during this whole conversation, which goes to show that he is in fact a tiny little man who is actually homosexual, so I've learned, with a preference for black sailors of at least 6ft4 for a good night of spooning. Whatever tickles his fancy :)

Do you take Sokidoki and the henchmen so serious then?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens, Gerstenfeld is most ungrateful towards the country that has sheltered him and gave him the opportunity to become an environmental (!) professor - some knowledge he must have of political stuff)

Face it; Jews from all over the world even Columbia come here to spit on Poland, bunch of trolls polluting this forum if you ask me. Hardly any thread untouched by them, turning everything into a Jewish issue, like you’re the center of universe LOL. There’s no race in entire world more racist then the Jews. You’re from Netherlands, yet you defend American immigration policy like it was your own. Given the fact you are Jewish and never denied that fact like others here makes you think it is.

You keep crying about the WWII yet tell us to forget, you tell us to compensate you yet tell us to forget what we have lost. You know what; once you live up to whatever you preach I might reconsider my views.

How would you know what he is? Have your advances been rejected? On the other hand you won’t find too many homos in Poland so you have to search somewhere else.

Well Jews in the articles i forwarded seem to think that Netherlands at large is a society that should be deeply ashamed of its rampant anti-semitism:)

Yes ... and you seem to remember only one thing from the articles, since this one brain cell of yours isn't able to make connections or actually READ what's in the articles. You are so pathetic, I would almost start collecting money for you.

I will join you.

I was over there three years ago, and I was not very impressed with the centre of the city and the spike in the middle of O'Connell Street. So we drove outside Dublin during the day, and spent our evenings around Clontarf were I grew up. The time prior to that was 1982 which was a much better Dublin then the one I found in 2007.


That was something I was more aware of the next year, when I went with my brother and not my wife. We went on a trip down memory lane visiting all our old favourite watering holes, the only one of the few that retained its character was Toners. The only change was old Mr Toner was long gone but they still did a great pint of the black stuff. And we did find the younger men were more racist then the woman as it is in London. Its sad really spending all that energy on hate instead of getting on with their lives and moving forward. My brother was mentioning the other day that we are due another visit to Dublin, we were thinking around Autumn it would be really nice to meet you and have a few in The Bailey. I hope you are feeling a bit better, and make a complete recovery soon.

I actually lived there for a year, in 2006 that was...Can't remember the name of the street, though, but it was not far from Clontarf Village in one of them red-brick houses, only one row away from the seaside. Lovely area of Dublin, I must say, and it was sad that I had to leave there, but the landlord decided to sell the house and all of us had to go.


Thank you, my friend. It's getting a little better every day and the doctor told me today that I can actually have a pint (albeit just one or two) next week! So, it's getting ahead!

May I ask you where exactly Toners is? As soon as I am up and going again, I would love to visit that pub, just to see :) And: let me know if you some time in the future plan to go to the Dirty Auld Town again, I would love to have a pint with you :)

And you're right: the Spire is one hideous thing - a shame that they wasted, what was it again? 4 or 40 million...On sth like that.

Edit: I found Toners, it's all the way down to Upper Baggott Street? Or are there more Toners? Couldn't find any more...So it must be the right one.


Which JewS? I only saw stuff written by one: Manfred Gerstenfeld, an Austrian Jew born in 1937, who was adopted by Dutch ppl shortly after the war, grew up in Amsterdam and paid by the Dutch state was able to study EVIRONMENTAL studies. In fact he doesn't have any sociologic insight nor does he have a grasp of political stuff. I've read more stuff from his hand and I dismiss it most of the time as just another ungrateful little bastard that had his education paid for by the Dutch, saw his life saved by the Dutch and owes nearly everything he has and is at the moment to the Dutch. Yeah, he is an ungrateful little bastard, considering what the Dutch have done for him.

Leah Visser is not a Jew. Leah is a non-Jewish Dutch who lives in Jerusalem and is connected to that institute. I remember her from early nineties, she was an hysterical little bytch that cried wolf of anti semitism or racism as soon as you as much looked at her.

In short, I have never liked this institute both work for as it focuses too much, way too much on incidents caused by a single depraved individual and take this as an example of how bad Dutch society is. But then again, this is in full adherence to your usual way of reasoning. So it doesn't surprise me that you come up with sources like that. But it's only one source and one opinion. If the Netherlands are rotten to the core, I am sure there are loads and loads of documents on Inet that will prove such a thing. Yet you and your evil helper come up with just ONE source. Hm.

We may have a Jewish PM after June 9th of this year. Would that be pssbl if the Dutch were so anti semitic? Don't think so.

>^..^<

M-G (like I said, your black boyfriends are waiting for you, go on, hurry to them for some good spooning)

Thats because you dont look at the links you got, there's at least 4, they all agree Denmark is a racist hellhole:))))))


Must be hard for him in such a racist country like Denmark:))))

Sok ... what are you rambling on about Denmark? You are really stupid, aren't you? My God, I wonder why they didn't put you in a straight jacket yet? Please do humanity a favour and don't have children. I don't want humanity to return to the times of Homo Australiensis.

He's in a delirium tremens right now because he just had a for him very pleasant spooning-interaction with his black American sailor boyfriends. And one tends to see things not so clear when one is in a delirium tremens. :)

M-G (soon he goes back for more, like a junkie, he just can't get enough of their love, grin)

M-G I think that was Vernon Avenue I lived on St Lawrence's Avenue right at the top on the left hand side. It was a great place for a kid to grow up, St Ann's estate was our playground and Dollymount beach for swimming and hunting rabbits. Our local pub when we were old enough was the The Yacht which served a great pint of Guinness. Toners is in Baggot Street it has not changed since the 1920's, I'm sure you will like it and the food's not bad. Take care I'm glad you are feeling better.

Actually, I think I know where it is now. Saint Lawrence Avenue is basically on the other side of Clontarf from where I lived. I remember kinda drunken occasions on Friday nights when me and the guys from work (which was then still at East Point) went for a couple of pints in that kip called Barcode, which was more of a dancing than a pub, but the pints were 3 Euro until 22:00 and then missing the last bus, therefore had to walk...Must be over a kilometer, which is long when you're drunk :)

I just used Google Maps and I remembered again, it was Kincora Court, a little sideway of Kincora Road, that's where I lived in Clontarf.

Thank you my friend. I am sure you read the pm I sent you, does this have any resemblence to what happened to you 18 years ago as you wrote?

Take care, my friend.

I have been reading stuff that says something quite different, De Gaulle wasn't that popular until some months AFTER he "liberated" France. Also the Resistence wasn't that great, heck even Germans said "50% of it is filled with Poles"


That's because they would lose their job if they didn't, also a lot even helped Jews to escape and ignored seeing AK forces in the town having a pistol under his coat for instance. Seen the Pianist? The seen where he get's dragged out of the que and says he get out of here and later on "DON'T RUN!" That was taken from a moment about a Jewish girl whom a blue policeman saves in real life

If you check up the security staff you will find that Jewish police was a lot worse then the blue police too!


It looks better then the world ;)
(exept for the fjords I <3 my fjords)


Ive also heard stories of people giving the Germans flowers no? ;)
Such a peace loving people


Yeah Denmark was pretty Anti-semitic before ww2 (Scandinavia in general)
But weren't we talking about the Jews in the Netherlands?

Although I GOT A QUESTION:
There were Jews in the Polish military in 1939 how did they do? :)

I always wonder what kinda sources some ppl use. Heck, the French resistance had a price on Petain's head; it's only due to the severe security and the protection by the German forces that it didn't happen. Of course, there were collaborators. Of course, there were in every occupied country. But most French hated the Vichy regime.


And you wonder why some police officers in NL helped the Nazis? For the very same reason.


There was a Nationalistic Socialist Movement in NL. However, they were sharply on the decline by 1940. They were the ones to give the Germans flowers. The normal Dutch didn't do that. Stop finding reasons trying to debunk sth that cannot be debunked. There were good elements and there were bad elements. Just like in any country. Oh no, that's not true, not in Poland as there were only good elements :)


Oh pls give me a break: Denmark was the only country in Europe that managed to save ALL their Jews by shipping them off to Sweden. There were only a couple of thousands, but nevertheless.

Only Norway was pretty anti-semitic, testified by this line in Norwegian law: "no Jew may enter the Kingdom of Norway".

For Sweden: Raul Wallenberg, anybody? He on his own saved about 10.000 Jewish lives, only to be arrested and left to rot in a Soviet cell after the war on suspicion of being a Western Spy.

How about diverting the attention back to the Jews in Poland? Hm? What would Jan Gross say about them?

>^..^<

M-G (oh, I forgot, Jan Gross is a dirty liar because he unmasks the truth about Poland and the Jews)

Constitution actually and it said No Jews&Jesuits allowed to enter the Kingdom of Norway
Really weird '
I remember when reading it in history class people asked me: Who is a Jesuit? (I laughed hard inside myself LOL)


I was thinking before WW2
Just the same about NL


Yes that guy fantastic I may even suppose he was a left sided guy, I was more of thinking about the large right-winged Sweeds whom were VERY pro-German ;)


Did they have uniforms? I can recall looking at pictures with women and kids with flowers and baked bread etc without any special uniforms and such or flags


It's NOT about TRUTH it's about focusing on the wrong point!

It's like saying that 1 Marsian kills a Venusian because he was a Venusian and call him a anti-Venusian while the rest of the Marsians get's a hold of him hangs him by his balls spits at his face and even the worst scum of former Anti-Venusians says: HANG THE MURDERER!

Then really tell me if a writer then writes about the incident of that 1 Marsian killing a Venusian and IGNORING all the help the rest of the Marsians did for the Venusians which were in trouble

WTH do you CALL THAT? That is what I call Mr Gross!

There were JEWS killing JEWS in ww2! Does that make Jews anti-semitic? P`=)"?(/=!")(?"¤)=!¤)(?"=!)/ that's moronic! The only thing that is important is the national conciesness and it definatly didn't tell all Poles to murder Jews!

The WA (Weer Afdeling - Defending Dept) wore black uniforms. But it was also a political party and ppl could be member of it without having to wear a uniform. Those are the ones you've seen. Just like in any country before WW2 there were similar parties like the Nazi party, heck, even Britain (Sir Oswald Mosley, anyone), the US (silver shirts amongst others - they had a large portion of German immigrants, but the Silver shirts and the New York dept of them were literally beaten out of business by Meyer Lanski and other Jewish gangsters) and Ireland (the Blue Shirts - though very small and you have to hand it to the Irish, they were the only country in Europe in which some form of Nazi movement didn't get big in the years before the war). So it's not really surprising that the Swedes had their form too. But general modus is that these parties were small parts of the society who in the early 30's gained quite some following due to the successful rebuidling of Germany, hence the initial success of the Nazi movement. All of them were severely on the decline in the last two years of the 30's. The reason for this is simple: economically it was getting better in all of those countries and Nazism only has a chance when things go bad economically. Except in Germany, of course, where the Nazis had such an iron grip on society and there were no democratic elections anymore.


Like sb earlier on in this thread said pointing to the Dutch: the truth can be quite uncomfortable, how do you know that those other Martians helped? Were you there? Did you actually see them do it? Neither did Gross, but nobody really knows what happened anyway as you for sure don't want to believe eyewitnesses who have a shirt to wipe clean, their own, so naturally they will say they helped. Wouldn't be the first time.

Edit: couldn't find any English Wiki about the WA, but here is a link to the NSB (Nationaal Socialistische Beweging - National Socialist Movement)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in_the_Netherlands

As you can read here, they were quite on the decline, the years directly before WW2 and the invasion of NL.

And FYI: after the war these ppl were duly punished, some by death, others by imprisonment.

>^..^<

M-G (now, be a good boy and get me some nice red wine, grin)

It's a very difficult matter, that's obvious.

M-G, if you are interested in Jewish Roots IN Poland, you should expand your reading list beyond charlatans like Jan Gross. His books on post-war communist Poland do not take into account (deliberately) the very visible Jewish role in state sanctioned murder during the Stalinist period. The same period he writes about. He sets out to prove antisemitism for dubious reasons, and people like you are happy to fall for it.

I would suggest a different course for this thread. Try this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berek_Joselewicz

and perhaps here: ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3302233,00.html

I think the biggest hamper for Poland in this matter is the lack of documentation among Western historians. In other words, the number of Polish historians with different views and different opinions, no matter what they may be, that have published in English, is few. I admit it's growing, but still a small number. Let's face it, if you publish in Polish alone, your reach will be limited. Limited to the ppl who can read Polish. I for one would definitively be reading publications of them. But for now the only ones that published works on this theme are Gross and, what's her name. And those two are, according to you, grossly exhaggarating things at least. But yet they're the only sources I can read on the subject as I cannot read Polish. And I don't want to read Jewish sources only.

What I'm trying to say (just out of bed, sorry) is that Polish historians should try and stop their belly-button staring and try to have their works written/published in English. I think it would help Poland a lot of getting rid of the image of being an anti semitic bunch.

That is also the difference with Western historians: nearly every work of any Western historian, perhaps maybe the German ones - but to me that is not really an issue as I can read German, had their work either translated into English or wrote it in English. Therefore we can read any subject from all sides and all opinions about it, so we can form an opinion that comes closest to the truth.

Would you agree that a more internationalising of Polish history by Polish historians by means of publishing AND in Polish AND in English helps getting more widespread understanding and insight in any part of Polish history, not only with regards to the Jews?

I for one think it would.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

The Main Jewish Haplogroup is J1.

Poland is only 1 percent J1.

Which means that Only likely close to 1 - 2 percent of the present Population of Polish Catholics have a Jewish Male Ancestor.

But, I question how much of Polish Americans who came to the U.S Pre WW2 have them. Considering the Genetic profile of Poland likely significantly changed.

I think that Poles in America who are Pre WW2 seem to have a little more often Jewish & Tatar Looks than Poles in Poland today.

I really wish they did Genetic sampling of PURE blooded Polish Americans who are Pre WW2 vs Polish in Poland
& See if there are SIgnificant differences in genetics.

Getting a population sample like that would be difficult. Like trying to get a population sample of leading commies who lived thru Stalin's purges of the 1930s.

Interesting you say that.
It has already detrimented a Pole & Likely others by only publishing in Polish!

Such is the Case with Walery Jaworski

In 1899 he described bacteria living in the human stomach that he named "Vibrio rugula". He speculated that they were responsible for stomach ulcers, gastric cancer and achylia. It was one of the first observations of Helicobacter pylori. He published those findings in 1899 in a book titled "Podręcznik chorób żołądka" ("Handbook of Gastric Diseases") but it was available only in Polish and went unnoticed.

His findings were independently confirmed by Robin Warren and Barry Marshall, who received the Noble Prize in 2005

This is very Impressive! Because this Pole was about 100 years ahead of his time in his studies! But, Went unnoticed for only publishing in Polish.

But, Very sad.