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How would Poland change for the better (or worse) under a PiS government?


delphiandomine  
17 Feb 2016 /  #151
It's straight from the Morawiecki plan. Surely he knows what's in his own plan?

Just for Greggy :

Prof. Filar, an economist: With great curiosity looked at the trillion, of which the minister Morawiecki spoke. Much of the funding position of the plan is, from the point of view of an economist, at least puzzling. They included among other things, corporate deposits amounting to over 200 billion zł.

money.pl/gospodarka/wiadomosci/artykul/plan-morawieckiego-w-ogniu-krytyki-znanego,15,0,2021135.html

Indeed, it's very puzzling as to where this money is going to come from. Forcing the banks to hand over the cash would be straight out of the PRL, and any 100% private business being forced to participate would cause capital to run out of Poland as quickly as possible. That leaves raiding the cash reserves of KGHM and so on - which also decreases their competitiveness internationally.

The article goes on to explain that while the Morawiecki plan relies on half a trillion of EU funding, that also relies on the Polish budget coming up with cash to support the EU funding. There's not much money in the Polish budget to play with, so where's the money coming from?

Likewise, what I mentioned above about Morawiecki not actually having the competence to deal with certain things is mentioned.

However, please note that this is another area of ​​competence than the one assigned to Morawiecki.

This is entirely my point. Morawiecki can make all the great plans he wants, but PiS are busy reimposing heavy controls on private businesses in other ministries. For that reason, the plan is doomed to failure.
Polonius3  
17 Feb 2016 /  #152
hand over the cash

Paying their fair share of taxes (which the banks and foriegn corporations did not do under tusk) is not handing over money but paying taxes like everyone else.
pweeg  
18 Feb 2016 /  #153
There's not much money in the Polish budget to play with, so where's the money coming from?

I thought that EU structural funds had to be matched by the Polish government and have been so for the past few years.

This plan strikes me as a publicity stunt to claim the EU funds as a PiS strategy rather than something Tusk negotiated.
Harry  
18 Feb 2016 /  #154
I thought that EU structural funds had to be matched by the Polish government

They do. The problem is that the PIS 'economists' seem to think Poland can get more money from the EU and can do so without putting more of Poland's own money in.

a publicity stunt to claim the EU funds as a PiS strategy rather than something Tusk negotiated.

They'll do that anyway. This part of the plan (if one can call something so utterly ridiculous a plan) is designed to let the PIS lovers whine that they couldn't carry out their plan because the nasty EU refused to give Poland money.
G (undercover)  
18 Feb 2016 /  #155
It's straight from the Morawiecki plan.

Of course it isn't. You just made it up. It's total nonsense. It's like someone said "delphiandomine is going to rob his employer", what more than "nonsense" could you say then ? The whole thing about deposits is that non-financial corporations in Poland hold a damn load of cash and see no opportunities to invest them, that's because despite of PO's propaganda you've been spreading here, Poland already is in the mid-income country trap, they have made a lot of money exporting some simple components to Germany and paying workers shyt, they can't go on forever with that model and there's noting else on the horizon in many cases, going on their own into something much more complicated is too risky for many SMEs. That's why the whole thing is about activating their resources, creating opportunities so they can invest more. That's it. What you spread here is a pure lie and filthy propaganda and what's worst, you know that very well.
jon357  
18 Feb 2016 /  #156
This part of the plan (if one can call something so utterly ridiculous a plan) is designed to let the PIS lovers whine that they couldn't carry out their plan because the nasty EU refused to give Poland money.

It's completely planned. That way they can try to gain political capital from the whole "nobody likes us" thing.
G (undercover)  
18 Feb 2016 /  #157
Boring nonsense just like all the recent rubbish coming from PO/Swetru crowd.
delphiandomine  
18 Feb 2016 /  #158
I thought that EU structural funds had to be matched by the Polish government and have been so for the past few years.

Indeed. But because of the reckless spending policies of PiS, there's no chance for central government to put up the cash.

The whole thing about deposits is that non-financial corporations in Poland hold a damn load of cash and see no opportunities to invest them

You honestly think that big corprorations are going to risk getting involved with large cash-intensive projects in Poland when PiS are displaying such a hostile attitude towards big business? You're living in dreamland Greggy, big business is only going to invest that cash if they're guaranteed a return and guaranteed that the government won't try and take their cut for their friends.

I'm all for many aspects of the Morawiecki plan, but I cannot see how his words about promoting Polish business reconciles with the reality on the ground - that PiS are making life much more difficult for private business.
G (undercover)  
18 Feb 2016 /  #159
I'm all for many aspects of the Morawiecki plan...

You're all for spreading lies here. You took the whole thing about government taking over savings of corporations out of your ass.
Polonius3  
18 Feb 2016 /  #160
reckless spending policies

You never mention the reckless freebie policy of PO. Are you opposed to foreign corporations paying their fare share of taxes like everyone else? Yes or no? Of course, if you're on their payroll as a crypto-lobbyist, what can you say?
delphiandomine  
18 Feb 2016 /  #161
Could you perhaps provide hard facts as opposed to propaganda?

Jeronimo Martins (owners of Biedronka) paid a considerable sum in CIT last year, for instance.
mafketis  
18 Feb 2016 /  #162
Are you opposed to foreign corporations paying their fare share of taxes like everyone else?

Would you care to leave a citation or two that show that foreign corporations systematically underpay taxes in Poland?
G (undercover)  
18 Feb 2016 /  #163
Could you perhaps provide hard facts as opposed to propaganda?

How about you provide "facts" about this...

Polish government plans a raid on business savings

nonsense, nasty propagandist ?
Ktos  
18 Feb 2016 /  #164
You're all for spreading lies here. You took the whole thing about government taking over savings of corporations out of your ass.

Exactly, they should be kicked out here for trolling, this is a well known western method of putting wool of one's eyes, if lie is repeated many times it becomes a truth.
Polonius3  
18 Feb 2016 /  #165
underpay taxes

Economic-research firm Bisnode Polska reports that foreign companies pay considerably less tax than Polish ones. They've got well-paid legal advisers showing hot to outfox Poland and transfer maximum profits abroad.

Thsi was especially prevalent under the Tusk regime and yet PF's BB tag team were strangely tight-lipped out it. Could they be crypto-lobbyists for foreign-interest groups?!

inwestor.newseria.pl/newsy/wywiadownia_gospodarcza,p621608472
jon357  
18 Feb 2016 /  #166
Codswallop, Po. It isn't about whether it's a 'foreign firm' or a 'Polish firm' (and who cares anyway about a company's ownership); it's that larger firms, irrespective of the owners' citizenship, are better equipped to manage their taxation more effectively.

And anyway, the number of companies operating in Poland that are registered abroad is huge; most of them entirely Polish-owned and which long been a thorn in the side of the particularly rapacious Polish tax office.
mafketis  
18 Feb 2016 /  #167
They've got well-paid legal advisers showing hot to outfox Poland and transfer maximum profits abroad.

It's not illegal to minimize one's tax bill (while following the law). Larger players know how to do it better, if anything it's an incentive for simplifying the tax code.

There's no such thing as helping domestic bueinsesses to grow while penalizing foreign operators in the modern world. That's as dead as PRL style economics.
delphiandomine  
18 Feb 2016 /  #168
It's very common for people to have businesses registered in the UK or the Czech Republic to avoid Polish taxation. Why isn't Polonius going after them first of all, given that these are Poles screwing Poland?
Polonius3  
18 Feb 2016 /  #169
Poles screwing Poland

Poles screwing Poland or foreign-interest groups screwing Poland. Which is worse? That's a good question.
Re the Poles, that is a vestige of Poland's troubled past -- partitions and occupations, the latest being the 45-year PRL episode. Everyone is out for themselves and tries to outfox the system. The 26 years of post-PZPR/KOR-ite misrule have not instilled a sense of "our state, our government" because people could see that apart from the elites, millions have not benefited from the transformation.
Harry  
18 Feb 2016 /  #170
apart from the elites

Don't forget the people who bought state-owned property for a song due to their shady connections from commie times. I think I remember reading something about PIS wanting to cancel all purchases of state-owned property which were not made at market prices and return to the purchasers their funds (with interest). Has anybody heard anything more about that? It's certainly a PIS policy I would support and one which would change Poland for the better.
jon357  
18 Feb 2016 /  #171
It's certainly a PIS policy I would support and one which would change Poland for the better.

That would actually be an excellent move. I don't just mean the scandal of Zatoka czerwonej świnii down in Wilanów and that large building on ul. Kostrzewskiego that was built for senior MSZ people who bought the free holds for peanuts but also the commercial and residential properties round the capital, especially in North Warsaw that were sold at a massive discount or even given away under very questionable circumstances when the Berlin Wall fell.

One issue is that there are certainly PIS figures who themselves ripped off Poland in the same way however I suspect it will all come out in the wash - especially if PIS try their vindictive stuff with people who subsequently succeed them in office.
polishinvestor  
18 Feb 2016 /  #172
Everyone is out for themselves and tries to outfox the system.

This has always been the case in Poland. The word skombinowac is a product of communism. It still holds true today, but of course the avenues for such are fewer since private corporations today are more alert to theft than the government at that time.
Polonius3  
19 Feb 2016 /  #173
Wilanów

Better known as Lemmingrad!
jon357  
21 Feb 2016 /  #174
I wonder what would be a suitable nickname for Żoliborz, a district where there was a substantial amount of real estate, mostly villas, distributed among the faithful servants of Natolin and Moscow...
InPolska  
21 Feb 2016 /  #175
@Jon: it goes for a lot of areas (Saska Kępa, Sadyba, Anin....among others) where we see gorgeous villas built before 1989. Some years ago, I worked with an expat family who at the time lived (rent paid by the husband's company) in a house, in which one of Jaruselski's bodyguard once lived. The villa (located in Sadyba not far from British School) is gorgeous, several floor high, a lot of rooms most of which are huge, nice garden. It strikes me that Poles are nowadays very discreet about their past....
Polonius3  
21 Feb 2016 /  #176
mostly villas, distributed

Untrue. Mostly private villlas purchased through private estate agents.
Your parroting your Great Guru's lies and distortions again. Try thinking for yourself for once.
jon357  
21 Feb 2016 /  #177
Mostly

We aren't talking about most of the houses in the entire neighbourhood, are we now, Po. Just the ones divvied out by The Party to their loyal supporters and useful idiots.

A good friend of mine was offered one but refused on grounds of decency.

Poland will certainly change for the better if there is an audit of such transactions...
Polonius3  
21 Feb 2016 /  #178
divvied out by The Party

On the next street there was a big villa of a PZPR bigshot named Frelek (probably dead by now), but the other houses were all private or once belonging to the Express Wieczorny ( long-defunct daily) co-op and later sold to private buyers. Urban used to live on a neighbouring street for a time, but dunno what the ownership situation was like -- probably just renting but the regime surely picked up the tab. Everyone knows his role as Jaruzel's lackey was a highly profitable arrangement.
jon357  
21 Feb 2016 /  #179
There are plenty of ex-Party properties round there and also in other inner suburbs; I even used to rent one myself. Visitors who lived here in the 80s were sometimes surprised at the opulent standards compared with other homes built during the period.

There is a case for all transactions between 1988 and 1992 to be audited.
Polonius3  
21 Feb 2016 /  #180
properties

The original owner of our home was Andrzej Nowaliński a commie who was a correspodnent for Polish Radio way back. He sold it to another family and my wife bought it from them. I decided to look Nowaliński up (he ended tragically in London - suicide or something), and what did I get: the Wildstein List. Just in case you or other PF-ers may be interested, here it is:

us.listawildsteina.eu/nowali%C5%84ski%20andrzej

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