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Are polish pupils harming native british childrens education?


Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
29 Nov 2007 /  #61
I am a 3rd year LLB law student actually

No you're not. Prove it champion. I've read some of your posts and I don't believe you would be. Which university do you go to? Throw some "law" at me! Please reply mate - dont be shy.
Kilkline 1 | 689  
29 Nov 2007 /  #62
If you can find the number of Brits who worked in the British colonies then this will be the number you're looking for. Likely millions.

Millions of Brits didnt work in the colonies. The reason for the empire's success was that it was a triumph of organisation and administration. "millions" of Brits have never left Britain to go anywhere.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
29 Nov 2007 /  #63
Millions of Brits didnt work in the colonies.

Even if they leached off the work of others, they still worked as administrators, soldiers and such.

"millions" of Brits have never left Britain to go anywhere.

Between 1825 and 1849 alone (that's only a 25 year period) the following number of Brits emigrated to the following areas:

North American Colonies (now Canada) - 808,740
USA - 1,260,247
Aus and NZ - 185,286
Others - 30,911
Total - 2,285,184

So yes, it's millions.
During that period the total population of England was under 15 mil.
Kilkline 1 | 689  
29 Nov 2007 /  #64
Quoting: Kilkline
Millions of Brits didnt work in the colonies.

Even if they leached off the work of others, they still worked as administrators, soldiers and such.

Still not millions and I dont see how a soldier would benefit.

Between 1825 and 1849 alone (that's only a 25 year period) the following number of Brits emigrated to the following areas:

North American Colonies (now Canada) - 808,740
USA - 1,260,247
Aus and NZ - 185,286
Others - 30,911
Total - 2,285,184

So yes, it's millions.
During that period the total population of England was under 15 mil.

You're confusing the terms British and English.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
29 Nov 2007 /  #65
If someone has the guts to go to a different country then IMO they should have the guts to take care of their, and their families' language skills.

exactly my point,If your kids are slightly older,then to choose to leave your native country without proparly preparing your kids for it then it is your fault,not the host countries fault ,if their education suffers.

As to the

Oh, and I didn't quite get the reason for commie twaddle mate. Is it a lack of arguments that makes you fluff up your posts with redundancies?

old CPGB and Socialist worker crap mate, no immplication intended that you are a card carrying member of the party....:)
But, I stand by my point,backed up by other posters since,you have a very simplified "understanding" of the old Empire...all those millions you listed went out to build new countries,no one sent Tax back to Britain...especially not from the US,have you never heard the phrase,"no taxation without representation"? 40 odd years prior to your figures the USA won independance from Britain.......

As a final point, The British Empire did not end because "we" suddenly felt guilty about it,it ended because Britain could no longer afford to prop up its dominions.Financially for a good half of the empires history more money went out than came in.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
29 Nov 2007 /  #66
Still not millions

First problem I see here is your basic arithmetic skills, so let's make it simple for you:
2,285,184 means over 2.2 millions.

I dont see how a soldier would benefit.

You're not trying to say the British soldiers went to the colonies for charity work with the natives, are you?

You're confusing the terms British and English.

A technicality. The fact remains that contrary to your statement ("millions" of Brits have never left Britain to go anywhere), millions of them did leave Britain.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
29 Nov 2007 /  #67
Quoting: Kilkline
You're confusing the terms British and English.

A technicality. The fact remains that contrary to your statement

bo**ox, tell an Irish man,still then a Briton,that he's technicaly english...sorry mate,your just reenforcing your lack of knowladge in this area.

You're not trying to say the British soldiers went to the colonies for charity work with the natives, are you?

No ,he's probably saying that atleast 80-85 % of forces in the empire were local sodiers,Indians in ,er,India,Africans in ,well,er, Africa etc etc

Still,not that it seems relevent anymore but, can darius point out anytime in history when over 1 1/2 millions brits went to one country in less than 3 years?
the_falkster 1 | 180  
29 Nov 2007 /  #68
But, I stand by my point,backed up by other posters since,you have a very simplified "understanding" of the old Empire...all those millions you listed went out to build new countries

hahaha...

so britain sent the salvation army???
they put existing countries into their empire only because british people are "so nice" to build new countries on places where there are already countries (not to mention the people living in them)??

don't you think there was for example a massive interest in getting these countries ressources to britains benefit???

how shortsighted and ignorant is that view, please?
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
29 Nov 2007 /  #69
i remember there was a time when the empire had colonies all over the planet. where they invited? what was the gain?
i recommend thinking first before talking...

change the record, I think that my generation have paid enough to 3rd world x british empires...not my problem!

it is called solidarity....
this is how democracy works

No its called bleeding the british tax payer.

USA - 1,260,247
Aus and NZ - 185,286
Others - 30,911

And just how many had to get goverment money to pay for their language lessons...just how many sent the majority of their earnings back to the UK?.... Just how many went with only a few sheckles in their back pocket? I think you will find that the English emigrate for very different reasons from those from the new A8 countries...oh and if you look at the size of the countries you listed you will note that England is in deed a tiny Island and not in any way alike...
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
29 Nov 2007 /  #70
shut up you old commie,you swallowed uncle joes stories hook line and sinker didnt you falkster..geez, you guys moan because the avarge Brit knows nothing about Polands empire then claim to be experts on our old empire........when all you do is spout old left crap. So, would you agree that India,one of the giant econamies of this century would have been better off left as a clusster of medievil monarchies,where women threw themselves onto husbands funeral pire etc ad nauseum?

it says quote shelly but its actualy falksters quote....

where they invited? what was the gain?

yes,in many countries Britain was invited in by the then ruling elites....stick to a subject you know some facts about rather than rehashing old lefty crap over and over and over........

And So, in conclusion, NO Polish kids arnt ruining British kids education.The system of education is ruining it all ready. We have schools in this country run by private buisness who massage figures to show improvment,how do they do that? they expell all the kids that "might" be a problem.......
Lady in red  
29 Nov 2007 /  #71
Who's paying for it? And why on earth should we have to?

The thing is Shelley, any child entering the British State system gets some help initially if they cannot speak the language. It's nothing new and it's not something just been designed for Eastern European immigrants etc. The fact is the funding needs to be revised. It's quite archaic to say nothing should be done.

Many of these children will more than likely make their homes here when they are older and will contribute to the taxation system just as you and most other residents do in the UK. More than likely the childrens parents are working (in the majority of cases) and paying tax as well.

It's also surely, false economy to have teachers spending inordinate amounts of time trying to explain lessons to children who cannot speak the language. It is more cost effective to assist them at the outset and then they will quickly pick up their fluency from their day to day interactions around the school.

it's all about the government opening up the doors to any Tom, Dick and Harry with no restrictions and expecting English people to suffer....

I don't agree. Being part of the EU means free movement of labour. Yes, we have been affected quite a bit here in the UK I know but you also have to remember a lot of immigrants do work in jobs which many UK people do not want to do......also many are skilled as well and this country would struggle to maintain a lot of its basic services if we had a 'closed doors' policy. The Uk also, has a large ageing population which is growing considerably and therein lies some major issues for the future. Far better to educate well the younger generation (whether immigrant children or not) so that this Country can continue to prosper.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
29 Nov 2007 /  #72
Sorry LIR, you are not going to win me over on this one, I dont think my tax should be going on paying for 'extra' english lessons for children....

Its an expense we can do without

Yes I am fully aware that some schools in places like Oldham (large asian comunities) have problems..and I dont agree with them getting extra help either, if you come to this country then you should be able to fit in...simple

I don't agree. Being part of the EU means free movement of labour. Yes, we have been affected quite a bit here in the UK I know but you also have to remember a lot of immigrants do work in jobs which many UK people do not want to do......also many are skilled as well and this country would struggle to maintain a lot of its basic services if we had a 'closed doors' policy. The Uk also, has a large ageing population which is growing considerably and therein lies some major issues for the future. Far better to educate well the younger generation (whether immigrant children or not) so that this Country can continue to prosper.

We have an aging populatino because the average person finds it a struggle to aford to have a family.

I seriously dont think that our economy would have crashed if we had limited the the number of people coming to the UK.

English people for centuries have done the ****** jobs...we managed okay!
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
29 Nov 2007 /  #73
Far better to educate well the younger generation (whether immigrant children or not) so that this Country can continue to prosper.

Here bloomin here :)
miranda  
29 Nov 2007 /  #74
.and I dont agree with them getting extra help either, if you come to this country then you should be able to fit in...simple

how can you fit in without knowing the language?

We have an aging populatino because the average person finds it a struggle to aford to have a family.

this is a problem of most of the developed coutries, not UK alone - the government should encourage family politics, such as child benefits and tax breaks for famililes, which in Canada for example is only done in one province: Quebec
Lady in red  
29 Nov 2007 /  #75
you are not going to win me over on this one,

And I am the first to always say each to their own opinion. But when you are retired and sat at home waiting for your State OA pension to arrive, don't be surprised if it never does because with your viewpoint there will not be sufficient money coming into the economy to fund your state pension. Well, you may say, I shal have a private pension, but majority of people may not or it may be small so they will desperately rely on their State pension.

So in your view, don't let them in or just let the children go straight to school not speaking any English. Costs more to supervise them, causes disruption for many when there is no need and stores up future problems when they enter adult life, badly educated, misinterpreting the english language and encourages them to not integrate into the UK society. And then maybe riots will start again ? A lot of work has gone into the area's you mention and quite rightly so.

Backward steps and I for one am proud at the way the UK is working on making this a fairer country for all. I pay tax too and am more than happy for my money to be used in the way the Government sees fit.

Just my view :))
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
29 Nov 2007 /  #76
And I am the first to always say each to their own opinion. But when you are retired and sat at home waiting for your State OA pension to arrive, don't be surprised if it never does because with your viewpoint there will not be sufficient money coming into the economy to fund your state pension.

Dont make me laugh, what state pension?????????? the only reason that the pension fund will be depleted is because the government spent it all pandering to none nationals and asylum seekers! I have a private pension anyway and have had since I was 18....

So in your view, don't let them in or just let the children go straight to school not speaking any English.

Pay for lessons or ensure that the children already speak the language would be a good idea, not let it be the responsibility of the host country!

I pay tax too and am more than happy for my money to be used in the way the Government sees fit.

You have your reasons...
Lady in red  
29 Nov 2007 /  #77
We have an aging populatino because the average person finds it a struggle to aford to have a family.

Not true. When we were poorer people tended to have larger families. Birth control, more prosperity, women waiting till they were a lot older before starting families, equality within the workplace, cultural changes etc etc have all contributed to the issues we shall be facing. It is not common just to the Uk , quite recently Japan has been the focus of attention on this very issue too. It is worldwide !

I seriously dont think that our economy would have crashed

When did it crash ? I know I've not read the news today. Did it happen this morning then ?

English people for centuries have done the ****** jobs...we managed okay!

Yeah, but think population sizes have increased somewhat over the centuries (not including immigration figures) also, we have more we want more, then we need more services etc etc

:)
miranda  
29 Nov 2007 /  #78
where women threw themselves onto husbands funeral pire etc ad nauseum?

not all of them- there were some cases, but it was not prevelent in the whole country.
Lady in red  
29 Nov 2007 /  #79
what state pension

When you pay into a State pension the money isn't put into a big reserve fund like in some private pensions. Some of the money that is collected by the Government from you in the form of National Insurance coontributions pays out state pensions to those people who are receiving it today. That is how the system works and has always worked.

I have a private pension anyway and have had since I was 18....

Well lets hope the World economy continues to prosper or your pension may not be worth as much as you think it may be when you retire. Also, not everyone is as fortunate as you are and therefore will be relying on a state pension alone when they retire.

the only reason that the pension fund will be depleted is because the government spent it all pandering to none nationals and asylum seekers!

Incorrect.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
29 Nov 2007 /  #80
When did it crash ? I know I've not read the news today. Did it happen this morning then ?

I think you will see that i wrote "I dont think that our econony
would have crashed had we not opend our doors....now there was no need for that tone.

Yeah, but think population sizes have increased somewhat over the centuries (not including immigration figures) also, we have more we want more, then we need more services etc etc

Now make up your mind, first of all we have an aging population and now we have an increasing population, you see you need one to have the other, so I would argue that it is immigrants that are poping out the kids.......but yes I agree life expectancy rates have been increasing for many years. I agree we have more services - a lot of which have been moved over seas - you see we have very little industry left in the UK and our 'services' have been relocated to places like India, we are or should I say a nation of service providers....

As to your point about women and child birth, would you not agree it has a lot to do with being able to provide for a family....and what is wrong with that?
chaz - | 5  
29 Nov 2007 /  #81
This is nothing but an attempt by the instructional rightwing to pirate a system of racial togetherness and social cohesion that this country has enjoyed over the years.

Why not them make an issue over the contribution made by these so called “immigrants” make to society? If the bulk of the Brits that are on benefits could get off the phat a*ses and get a job 3- 5 yrs ago, maybe we should not even be having this conversion. You call up the Dept of work and pensions and enquire about the available vacancies in England and Wales, I bet you, you’ll be told about 400,000+

Now this is my argument if these vacancies are been filled, by had working people irregardless where they are from; and paying taxes and NI pls note its called national insurance; national, and yet those with their crooked and perverse mind keep referring to them as immigrants, not with the full understanding of the word, but with all its derogatory implication. (Some legal bits, if we could establish this premise then they are committing a crime, it called incitement {:~) NB I have the copyright on this son }so if you are a victim see me, why suffer in silence? )

My little advice is, let be very careful we are all brothers and sisters; we have no right to treat and refer to people in ways and manner that we ourselves would be uncomfortable with. At the end of the day most of our beloved friends are here to make a better life for themselves and their families. You now tell me what more honourable than that?
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
29 Nov 2007 /  #82
When you pay into a State pension the money isn't put into a big reserve fund like in some private pensions. Some of the money that is collected by the Government from you in the form of National Insurance coontributions pays out state pensions to those people who are receiving it today. That is how the system works and has always worked.

I opted out so you will find that my pension money went to my private pension. I know exactly how a pension works....

Well lets hope the World economy continues to prosper or your pension may not be worth as much as you think it may be when you retire. Also, not everyone is as fortunate as you are and therefore will be relying on a state pension alone when they retire.

My pension is doing quite well thanks, it all depends on who you have your pension with, mine is safe....

Incorrect.

Well, you have it your way, this goverment wastes money on translations every day...so I consider that a waste of money that could be spent better.
the_falkster 1 | 180  
29 Nov 2007 /  #83
you guys moan because the avarge Brit knows nothing about Polands empire then claim to be experts on our old empire........when all you do is spout old left crap

actually i do not moan about anything.
it is almost always the brits on here who moan about how their society gets taken over by foreigners...
by the way i grew up in germany. nothing commy or left there so please stop taking in assumptions and start saying something productive for the discussion...

rehashing old lefty crap over and over and over

i said something ONCE. and that was not even lefty whatever...
but it is nice to see on what well educated level some people are writing...

NO Polish kids arnt ruining British kids education.The system of education is ruining it all ready

finally something i can agree with...

Being part of the EU means free movement of labour. Yes, we have been affected quite a bit here in the UK I know but you also have to remember a lot of immigrants do work in jobs which many UK people do not want to do......also many are skilled as well and this country would struggle to maintain a lot of its basic services if we had a 'closed doors' policy. The Uk also, has a large ageing population which is growing considerably and therein lies some major issues for the future. Far better to educate well the younger generation (whether immigrant children or not) so that this Country can continue to prosper.

so well siad. in germany we have been going through this process some years ago and guess what, all you doubters, our country still exists...

if you come to this country then you should be able to fit in...simple

on a slightly lighter note: have you ever seen brit people traveling?

English people for centuries have done the ****** jobs...we managed okay!

well... quite obviously not...

Quoting: ShelleyS
.and I dont agree with them getting extra help either, if you come to this country then you should be able to fit in...simple

how can you fit in without knowing the language?

very good point actually...
Lady in red  
29 Nov 2007 /  #84
Quote and link to article for information...........

The Impact of Changing Demographics in the UK Population

"The proportion of those of working age paying taxes to support the elderly will fall from 3.3 of working age for every pensioner today, to 2.9 in 2031, by which time the UK population is expected to reach 71 million (BBC, 23rd October 2007)"

thetimes100.co.uk/additional/news--the-impact-changing-demographics-uk-population--55.php

It's interesting that the immigrants rising birth rate will rise to help the UK ageing population and it's worth reading the article for that reason although obviously there will be other issues as well.

Just posting this for information if anyone is interested that's all

I have to go, work to do lol......
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
29 Nov 2007 /  #85
old CPGB and Socialist worker crap mate, no immplication intended that you are a card carrying member of the party....:)

I was never a member of any party in Poland, so I certainly wouldn't be tempted to join one in the country that sheltered the father of communism :)

all those millions you listed went out to build new countries

They destroyed a lot of cultures in the process. And just like with Poles in Britain, nobodyh in those "new lands" asked the Brits to come and build new countries, did they? That "building of new countries" is not much different than walking into your neighbor's house and claiming that you will now live there, set the daily rules, move some of the furniture to your own house and generally tinker around the invaded household while the original owners are at work.

no one sent Tax back to Britain

Where shall we start? The now iconinc "Boston tea party"? What was that about? Would you like to talk about WW1 and WW2 and how Britain did not need all those people and resource from the Colonies? Or could you explain what interest had the Gurka forces in fighting for Britain?

especially not from the US,have you never heard the phrase,"no taxation without representation"?

That was a slogan which was in protest to the actual taxation without representation. Especially for you and free of charge, a quote from Wikipedia:

The colonists complained that taxes were imposed by Parliament without the consent of the colonists, which violated the traditional Rights of Englishmen dating back from the Magna Carta.

The devil is in the detail, huh? :) You shouldn't have slept through those history classes.

The British Empire did not end because "we" suddenly felt guilty about it,it ended because Britain could no longer afford to prop up its dominions

I agree. The Empire collapsed because it stood no chance anymore. Britain was to weak militarily to continue the occupation. And let me ask you a question, where did the money come for this propping up of its Dominions? King of England action figures? Or Queen Victoria dolls that were in huge demand among Indians and aborigeenes of Australia?

Financially for a good half of the empires history more money went out than came in.

Wow, the Salvation Army are robbers in comparison to the Colonial Britain :)
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
29 Nov 2007 /  #86
It's interesting that the immigrants rising birth rate will rise to help the UK ageing population and it's worth reading the article for that reason although obviously there will be other issues as well.

I dont want a country full of immigrants - Im ENGLISH and my coutry is ENGLAND....the same as I would immigine Poland would not want a future country that was no longer Polish............
the_falkster 1 | 180  
29 Nov 2007 /  #87
this goverment wastes money on translations every day

that's truly european way of thinking...
oh i forgot...
EVERYbody on this planet should be able to speak english, right?

I dont want a country full of immigrants - Im ENGLISH and my coutry is ENGLAND....the same as I would immigine Poland would not want a future country that was no longer Polish

erm... you seem not very confident about everything "english"... do you see this country and its (truly great!) heritage not strong enough to cope with different cultures??

england will always be england in the same way as poland will always be poland.
don't panic...
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
29 Nov 2007 /  #88
And just how many had to get goverment money to pay for their language lessons

If you read my previous posts you would have noticed I am with you on that one.

just how many sent the majority of their earnings back to the UK?....

I don't know the numbers of individuals, but I do know that major companies, whose income often exceeded the combined income of individuals (The Hudson Bay Company) sent gobs of goods (money, raw materials, food etc) back to England.

I think you will find that the English emigrate for very different reasons from those from the new A8 countries.

The reasons were the same (give or take a researcher or two). They always have been: improving one's living standards, sometimes pure survival.

oh and if you look at the size of the countries you listed you will note that England is in deed a tiny Island and not in any way alike...

So it's OK to ramble about bigger countries but not smaller ones? Sound like Robin Hood's ideology. You're such a romantic :)
miranda  
29 Nov 2007 /  #89
the same as I would immigine Poland would not want a future country that was no longer Polish............

it is going to happen to Poland too, if it's any consolation to you Shell. Just a matter of time. And yes, Polish people will have to deal with it in the future, probably learning (hopefully) from other countries mistakes.

Im ENGLISH and my coutry is ENGLAND.

sure, I unerstand your sentiments, but reality doesn't seem to follow your wishes. Sorry. I am an immigrant and I am looking from my point of view. Also, I have never had any problems with other natinalities in Canada, because I know that their presence is due to IMMIGRATION policy implemented by the government. It is good to vent the frustrations, but it is also good to see the real causes of things. It is also good to stop being afraid of other nationalities just because they are not British. I think that you are guied by fear more than rational analysis on how things really are.
Lady in red  
29 Nov 2007 /  #90
I opted out

Out of what used to be called 'SERPS' I expect ? Not out of a basic state pension.

I'm not applying any tone. I'm merely replying in an informative way, you said

I seriously dont think that our economy would have crashed if we had limited the the number of people coming to the UK.

And I said it has not crashed unless it has happened this morning as I have not read the news this morning. That is a factual statement lol,.......

I know exactly how a pension works....

That's great then. So you will be aware that unless you are in a final salary scheme, your pension is dependent on the future growth on the Worlds financial markets ? Anything else is just a savings scheme and will not appreciate sufficiently in order to give you a good income when you retire., Furthermore, as people are now living longer your pension has to last a lot longer (on the assumption that when you do retire you will be fortunate to live a long and happy retirement) You may well find that your pension isn't worth as much as you think it will be and will be very happy to receive your basic state pension to supplement it.

mine is safe....

Hopefully :))

first of all we have an aging population and now we have an increasing population,

Think you are taking what I wrote out of context. You said 'over centuries' obviously the population did increase over hundreds of years. I've posted a link regarding the changing demograpics in the UK Population. Hope you find it of some interest. I'm not trying to score any points with you Shelley am merely debating the issue and providing some factual information too......Have a nice afternoon I really have to go and get some work done for now...

:)

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