Some Poles burning American flag

Soviets would win by itself yet US was supposed to push the Soviets out of Eastern Europe with ease? Which is it?

well Seanus, this kind of discussions are based on history knowledge by all of us and like Sokrates said and I fully agree with him, each country (or most) has a different opinion about what has really happened during the WWII.

Bring back effigies,
they burn for longer,
emitting more heat and light.

(a bonus on cold dark nights)

How was the US supposed to kick the red army out of Eastern Europe if it was more powerful than Hitler's luftwaffe?

All I can say is that most of people here underestimate Germany's military power during the WWII. Just look how many countries fought against them and how long it took to defeat them.

This is how I see it even though I don't agree...the US gave Eastern Europe to Stalin because of his military victories against Nazi Germany. He wanted to be rewarded for his victories, so the allies caved.

Germany was one formidable power!! HB is right, Tehran and Yalta sealed Poland's fate. It was a kind of present to Uncle Joe for his stalwart efforts.

Unfortunately, Stalin was prepared to stop all protests too.

One was as bad as the other. Stalin only ruled for 8 more years after the end of WWII.

We have America to thank for winning WWII, I will always maintain that. Still, it was a WORLD War after all. America paved the way for the modern EU. France and Germany came together just at the time of Stalin's death actually. Stalin passed away in 1953 which was when the ECSC (European Coal and Steel Community) was founded. It was the predecessor of the EEC which was formed in 1957. Then the EC, then the EU.

Interesting stuff, Seanus :) The EU has it's roots in the ECSC? Was the passing of Stalin connected to the founding of the ECSC?

Basic History really. Well, tracing it back yes. The ECSC was the most noteworthy form of solidarity between France and Germany. I think it was largely coincidental. I mean, Stalin's death wasn't exactly on the cards for 1953. The EC was what Britain joined in 1972/73. It took us 15 years to become part of the new European fabric. The Maastricht Treaty of 1992 brought about the EU. The Amsterdam Treaty drafted in some new measures but it still remained, and will remain, as the EU.

So the EU is basically about industry and resources. I never thought of it like that...I thought of it more in terms of government entities in coordination with one another. It makes sense it began as a steel and coal community because the EU is about being more effective in the global market.

We have America to thank for saving half the civilized Europe from Russia, thats not the same and Lord knows i say that with mixed feelings seeing how Poland got bent over in the process.

What ever happened to the EEC which i think became the EC?.
i haven't heard anything about it for years.


i thought that was the EEC (European Economic Community)?.

The EU is founded on certain pillars. It is a very varied entity. Well, the two are not mutually exclusive, HB. Gordon Brown reaffirmed his commitment to Europe in a recent speech but being European to Eurocrats is going the full hog. Brown is not taking on the Euro for now but other forces will determine his future decision.

Industry, well, that came about through the creation of the common market. This was particularly prevalent around John Major's tenure (ex Conservative PM in Britain). He was a prominent figure in the Maastricht negotiations, along with Norman Lamont who was then the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It's a pity that we didn't have the expertise of Kenneth Clarke around that time(former Tory and now occasional Bilderberger). He was a Tory but a good politician.

Seminal cases lay the foundations of the EU. Costa Vs ENEL established the supremacy of EU Law. Dassonville the freedom of goods/trade. Van Binsbergen, the free movement of services within the EU. We also have different levels of legislation. Directly applicable Regulations, Directives with direct effect and Decisions which are not binding.

I'm not sure how new this info is to you, HB. It was rammed into me at Uni. I did my Honours year (final year of the first degree) and postgrad year on it.

Seanny, it was about the constant striving towards union, predicated on solid pillars and after the creation of the common market. It was the European Economic Community (EEC), then the European Community (EC) but Union was seen as a more complete name for the processes that had been undergone.

With the help of the western allies, by creating a western front to take the pressure off of the Russians by tying up German forces and armor that would have been used against them.


No,by coming to the aid of a bunch of losers. Without Americans aid and supplies, all of Europe and Russia would be BBQ today.


Not a penny? Did you ever hear of American lend lease. Money that was not paid back.



No ,America never fought for you.. I then wonder why Poland regained her independence. If not for the western allies, you would still be under Russian control.

Moron. The British debt was repaid in full. The final payment of $83.3 million was made on 29 December 2006.

If United States would have been to the east of Poland instead of Russia, Poland would have been part of western Europe. I know that makes no sense and sounds like a contradiction but it illustrates my point nicely. Russia advanced and moved in and were there. That's why they got Eastern Europe. US and Britain were in the western part of Europe. I guess western Europe was lucky Stalin didn't try to push the US out? It could of gone either way.

You want to blame the US but remember Stalin put up walls and curtains as soon as it became clear eastern Europe did not want to be a part of the Soviet Empire.

Aid sent to Russia during WW2

I had sincere hope that our Russian friends will answer first... but somewhat they are quiet… So, a few facts for start...
Below is the list of "goodies" supplied to soviet Russia by USA - excluding personal presents from Winston on behalf of UK.

Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs

YES, The UK did finally pay the US back.. My mistake

Nope, communism toppled over because of its inherent economic weakness and we regained our independence with our own strenght (though not without support).


That was purely in US interest, USA did not want Germany to win also lend lease was not instrumental to Russia victory so i'm sorry but Poland owes US absolutely nothing.

Finally? The agreement was that the debt would be repaid over 50 years with the option of mutually agreement deferment. The agreement was kept to by the British government. Unlike the German government, which defaulted on most of its US debt for equipment used during the war.

Some of what you say is true. Unlike you. I am not as educated as you claim that you are. Gorbachev had a lot to do with it. But he never lasted very long. I am not qualified to argue politics with you.

As far as your own strength to regain your independence. You covered your self by quoting (With assistance). Poland was a beaten nation. Some escaped to the UK, and performed admirably in the air and on the ground. They were very impressive at Monte Cassino, the drive across France and Operation Market Garden. in the 1st Polish Airborne. My father fought next to them in WW2. But unlike you they respected Americans.

By assistance i mean newspapers and radio Poles operated from abroad, there was no significant political pressure to "free Poland".


Like hell it was, especially when milions of people took to the streets in protest or when a Pole became a Pope, Poland freed itself from Russian dominance because it was a lot of things and none of them beaten.


I respect America, i think its one of the greatest countries in living history, its just that i dont see Poland owing anything at all to it.

I repeat myself. (Poland was a beaten nation) The people who protested in the streets ended up in the oven.

The Pope came about 60 yrs later.
Other than WW2, Poland did nothing to free themselves from communism other than Lech Walensa. At least the Chechs battled Russian tanks with Molotov cocktails.

Any thanks about Poles fighting for and gaining their freedom goes to your Grand parents. Unlike the younger Polish generation, they were the pride of Poland. Due to their sacrifices you young punks are enjoying the fruits of their sacrifices

Dude... we are talking about fall of comunism in the 90s now, as far as WW2 was concerned Poland was occupied by Russia and there's nothing US has in common with that history.


You crack me up, we did nothing? It was WE that begun the fall, not the Berlin Wall, not the hopeless Hungarian and Czech revolutions but our peacefull movement, we were both strong and united enough to topple communism in Poland through sheer determination, after that it was domino effect that freed other countries.

Poland freed itself with its own strength (not for the first time too).


Here's a thing for you to think about, my long dead grandfather was told me "we kissed girls, we swore, we even had an odd drink but when the moment came, everyone rose up".

Its the same with current generations, they might have their own ways but when push comes to shove they would rise to the occasion, Poland never EVER suffered from lack of patriots in war time, its when peace came that problems started:)

My point exactly, thank your grandparents for your freedom. DUDE!

Well, it was that and the fact that Hungarian and Czech troops refrained from invading Poland when Poland was going through its revolution, unlike the Polish troops which invaded Hungary and Czechoslovakia during their revolutions....

That's a very good way to accomplish something: peacefully.

They refrained from nothing, Russia refrained from it since Poland would fight, it would lose but Russia was not ready for consequences of such confrontation.


You know you're starting to become PF village idiot with your anti-Polonism, Poland had nothing to do with troops being sent, the communist goverment was not representative of Poland or Polish people, it was an enforced upon us by Russia and we cant be held responsible for its actions (and if Hungary and Czech troops would indeed enter Poland i could not hold their respective countries responsible for the same reasons).

admit it sokrates, Harry just owned ya :-) lol. game,set and match and the fat lady is singing in the corner.