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Some Poles burning American flag


Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #271
Translate that flier and tell us what it says.

You want us to know, you tell us.

You wrote:

with the exception of one brave man, not a single Pole protested.

I proved you wrong.

So name those people. I can name some of the Russians who protested. Although that would be because they actually protested, they didn't just bravely write unsigned letters.

They were but Albania withdrew its support in 1961 as a result of the Sino-Soviet split, formally left in 1968. Romania stayed but was closer to China anyway.

Funny that you forget to mention why Albania left the Warsaw pact.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #272
Harry,

You are saying that Poland and Czechoslovakia were sovereign??!! Well, yes you are. Need nothing else to confirm you as a TROLL on this board.

You have been in this country for 12 years, so you say. How does it feel not to have one Polish friend? Don't tell me spit texts like that with Poles face`to face? I don't buy that. You sit alone, or maybe in an expat bar and spread lies about Poland on a Polish forum. Some existance. Your Polish girlfriend, either comes from a proud NKVD line, or most likely doesn't exist. Pathetic, really.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
27 Mar 2009 /  #273
Funny that you forget to mention why Albania left the Warsaw pact.

Oh yes, this is because I'm apologist of PRL and III RP. I praise these states in my each every post, anybody who read my posting can confirm it.

Apparently my posting ruining your theory, so you will ignore Chinese factor. This is just childish.
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #274
You are saying that Poland and Czechoslovakia were sovereign??!! Well, yes you are. Need nothing else to confirm you as a TROLL on this board.

If you could perhaps drop the ad hom drivel for long enough, perhaps you could explain why the Soviets (and Poles) needed to invade Czechoslovakia if it was not a sovereign state? If Czechoslovakia was such a subserviant state, why didn't the Kremlin just click its collective fingers?

I note that you are still using the Nuremberg defense to defend the brave Poles who invaded Czechoslovakia. That defense didn't work for the SS camp guards and it won't work for you either.

You have been in this country for 12 years, so you say. How does it feel not to have one Polish friend?

Longer than 12 years actually. I wouldn't know how it feels because I have more than one Polish friend.

Don't tell me spit texts like that with Poles face`to face? I don't buy that.

How does one spit a text exactly?

You sit alone, or maybe in an expat bar and spread lies about Poland on a Polish forum. Some existance.

Do list the lies. Alternatively face up to the truth that the Poland you so bravely abandoned in search of toilet paper is not perfect and never has been.

Your Polish girlfriend, either comes from a proud NKVD line, or most likely doesn't exist.

Given the number of times her grandfather was locked up by the commies, I would very much doubt that he was NKVD.

Pathetic, really.

Your complete inability to post facts and so to just resort to personal abuse? Yes, that would be a text book example of pathetic.

BTW, the police still haven't turned up to arrest me. Could you be so kind as to make another call reporting me?
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
27 Mar 2009 /  #275
You want us to know, you tell us.

Harry, the only thing I want all to know is that you are a propaganda warrior, not a truth seeker. Even when truth is right in front of your eyes you will try to find a way to ignore it.

So name those people. I can name some of the Russians who protested. Although that would be because they actually protested, they didn't just bravely write unsigned letters.

so what is your peculiar definition of "protest"?
Are you going to try and tell us that your English skills failed you? Or that the dictionaries of the English language got it wrong?
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #276
so what is your peculiar definition of "protest"?
Are you going to try and tell us that your English skills failed you? Or that the dictionaries of the English language got it wrong?

Name three of the many Polish people which you claim protested (and you are welcome to use whatever definition of protest you meant when writing your first post). Name the brave writers of anonymous letters!

Even when truth is right in front of your eyes you will try to find a way to ignore it.

You mean like the truth about Poland invading a neighbouring country instead of doing the right thing? The truth which you yourself are apparently blind to.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
27 Mar 2009 /  #277
Name three of the many Polish people which you claim protested

1. Ignacy Stopnicki
2. Zbigniew Morawski
3. Bronislaw Baczko

and a bnous

4. Leszek Kolakowski (you must have heard about Leszek Kolakowski)

You mean like the truth about Poland invading a neighbouring country instead of doing the right thing?

I never denied Polish forces were involved in Prague, in fact I included the fact in one of the quotes, if you care to read with understanding, or if there is a shred of honesty and integrity in you. What I objected to was your statement that with the exception of one brave man, not a single Pole protested.

So you're pawned again.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
27 Mar 2009 /  #278
I think what Harry means is that some protest or feeling uncomfortable and inwardly (or even outwardly) disagreeing with a policy doesn't account for much if said policy is still followed afterwards.

The Germans didn't get this slack after the war either...
So he is right, the defense "my gov made me do invade another country, I'm not guilty" shouldn't wash here either!

Like today! Poles on this board repeatedly express their sympathy with the "serbian cause" but this doesn't hinder Poland to be heavily involved down there (and NOT on the serbian side).

But to be fair it's ALWAYS the govs which call the shots...
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #279
I never denied Polish forces were involved in Prague, in fact I included the fact in one of the quotes, if you care to read with understanding, or if there is a shred of honesty and integrity in you. What I objected to was your statement that with the exception of one brave man, not a single Pole protested.

So you're pawned again.

Oh yes I'm just totatlly pawned. I'm so pawned because you have explained exactly why why the Soviets (and Poles) needed to invade Czechoslovakia if it was not a sovereign state! And I'm utterly pawned because you've explained precisely why the Nuremberg defense should apply sucessfully to the brave Polish invaders.

What a pity that Poland didn't object so strongly to the invasion of a neighbouring sovereign state strongly enough to not take part in the invasion. Of course, they had to take part really, I mean, the Romanians refused to take part and look what the Soviets did to them for that!

But to be fair it's ALWAYS the govs which call the shots...

Yes but if individual people don't pull the triggers, no shots are fired.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
27 Mar 2009 /  #280
I think what Harry means is that some protest or feeling uncomfortable and inwardly (or even outwardly) disagreeing with a policy doesn't account for much if said policy is still followed afterwards.

BB, there was no fight using weapons or bottles with gasoline, afaik, but there were actual protests. Harry turns his usual blind eye on this and starts splitting hairs.

The Germans didn't get this slack after the war either...

True they didn't but then history was too fresh for the Germans to be allowed in a country they had occupied by them just over 20 years before. That was exactly the same reason why the USSR declined offers by Honecker who offered German troops to quell Solidarity in Poland.

Like today! Poles on this board repeatedly express their sympathy with the "serbian cause" but this doesn't hinder Poland to be heavily involved down there (and NOT on the serbian side).

In my view, the so called "serbian cause" is a completely different kind of animal and I don;t identify myself with the supporters of genocide.

why why the Soviets (and Poles) needed to invade Czechoslovakia if it was not a sovereign state!

I mentioned nothing about any need to invade any country in this thread. Quote me.
I mantioned the shame Poles did and still do feel about the invasion. That is of course something you chose to disregard in your comments.

Of course, they had to take part really, I mean, the Romanians refused to take part and look what the Soviets did to them for that!

Romania's political reality was different than Poland's and that has been pointed out to you.

Stick to the topic.
You said there was not a single protest but one. i proved you wrong.
You asked for 3 names, I gave you 4.

Have the guts to admit you were wrong on this, keyboard warrior.

You posts are a clear sign of hatred to anything Polish. You are blinded by hatred and yet you point out someone else's faults in history?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #281
perhaps you could explain why the Soviets (and Poles) needed to invade Czechoslovakia if it was not a sovereign state?

You are playing a silly game. It's sophmoric. Have it your way. The reason is that Czecholstovakia asked them to. There is proof of that.

If Czechoslovakia was such a subserviant state, why didn't the Kremlin just click its collective fingers?

They did and they sent 600,000 men just to confirm their friendship commitments. After all, Czechoslovakia was their ally, right. They agreed to be in the "Warsaw" Pact.

I note that you are still using the Nuremberg defense to defend the brave Poles who invaded Czechoslovakia. That defense didn't work for the SS camp guards and it won't work for you either.

At Nuremberg Germans were tried for war crimes not for being in the army.

face up to the truth that the Poland you so bravely abandoned in search of toilet paper

Ah, Jews abandoning Poland in time of need for better toilet paper racial smear again. Should I list more of your lies? Now, doctor heal thyself.

If you could perhaps drop the ad hom drivel for long enough,

BTW, the police still haven't turned up to arrest me. Could you be so kind as to make another call reporting me?

If you insist on calling me racial slurs, I'll call on you myself, brave internet warrior.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
27 Mar 2009 /  #282
Yes but if individual people don't pull the triggers, no shots are fired.

In Fantasyland maybe...

In Realityland those individual peoples get just replaced and the shots are still fired.
(The aftermath for those replaced individual people and their families differs between countries, ideologies and time frames though..)
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #283
The reason is that Czecholstovakia asked them to.

Which would explain why on the night of the invasion, the Czechoslovak Presidium declared that Warsaw Pact troops had crossed the border without knowledge of the ČSSR Government.

If you insist on calling me racial slurs, I'll call on you myself, brave internet warrior.

Please, please, please do call the police and report me for the crime of pointing out that your own posts show that you are Jewish! I would love you to do that! I can't wait to see how long it takes them to arrest you for wasting police time.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #284
The Germans didn't get this slack after the war either...
So he is right, the defense "my gov made me do invade another country, I'm not guilty" shouldn't wash here either!

No one has collectively condemned the German nation, nor the German soldiers. War is war, and Poles and Germans have never missed a good fight in our history. War crimes are a different thing though.
Wroclaw Boy  
27 Mar 2009 /  #285
Which would explain why on the night of the invasion, the Czechoslovak Presidium declared that Warsaw Pact troops had crossed the border without knowledge of the ČSSR Government.

Harry judging by some of your comments on here you are either very old or have a time machine at your disposal.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
27 Mar 2009 /  #286
War is war, and Poles and Germans have never missed a good fight in our history. War crimes are a different thing though.

Agree!
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #287
Harry judging by some of your comments on here you are either very old or have a time machine at your disposal.

Either that or I read the sources listed at wikipedia.
Crow 139 | 8,630  
27 Mar 2009 /  #288
Some Poles burning American flag

burn mujas, burn their symbols!
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #289
report me for the crime of pointing out that your own posts show that you are Jewish!

I am Polish on all sides of my family. I emigrated from Poland and I never mentioned when, but I did say it was when I was a child. That is all the personal info I have given. How does that make me Jewish, braniac?

But wait, you insist that I am Jewish. You say I abandoned my country in the time of need...to search for better toilet paper. So, according to you, Jews who emigrated from Poland abandoned their country in search of toilet paper. Explain yourself.

Please, please, please do call the police and report me for the crime of pointing out that your own posts show that you are Jewish!

I said if you keep using racial slurs against me I will call on you. Is this a new phrasal verb for you?
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #290
I am Polish on all sides of my family. I emigrated from Poland and I never mentioned when, but I did say it was when I was a child. That is all the personal info I have given. How does that make me Jewish, braniac?

You might well be Polish on all sides but that doesn't mean you can not be Jewish, braniac. You have said that Catholic Poles could only dream of escaping communism but you yourself did manage to escape communism. How did you do that if you aren't Jewish?

But wait, you insist that I am Jewish. You say I abandoned my country in the time of need...to search for better toilet paper. So, according to you, Jews who emigrated from Poland abandoned their country in search of toilet paper. Explain yourself.[quote=1jola]Could be that they wanted toilet paper. Or it could be that they wanted to live in a country where they didn't have to worry about pogroms or government anti-semitism.

[quote=1jola]I said if you keep using racial slurs against me I will call on you. Is this a new phrasal verb for you?

Oh, I see, instead of a threat of informing on me you meant to make an implied threat of physical violence. Please do call on me. You can explain why "Jew" is an ethnic slur. But sadly I suspect that your offer to visit me is much like your promise to call the police: empty bluster which is the story of your life.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #291
1jola:
The reason is that Czecholstovakia asked them to.

Harry:
Which would explain why on the night of the invasion, the Czechoslovak Presidium declared that Warsaw Pact troops had crossed the border without knowledge of the ČSSR Government.

OK, the argument you use repeatedly is of collective Polish guilt for Stalinist camps, antisemitism, invasion of Ch. It is intellectually dishonest, but trolls don't care about honesty. I can make that same argument in this case:

"Pretekstem do inwazji był niepodpisany list opublikowany w radzieckiej prasie, w którym rzekomo czechosłowaccy przywódcy zwracali się do Kremla o niezwłoczną pomoc, łącznie z użyciem sił zbrojnych. List ten początkowo uważano za fałszerstwo, na początku lat 90. władze Rosji przekazały jednak prezydentowi Václavovi Havlovi kopię listu, który, jak się okazało, został podpisany przez Vasyla Bilaka, Oldřicha Švestkę, Drahomíra Koldera, Aloisa Indrę i Antonina Kapkę, reprezentujących stalinowskie skrzydło w KPCz."-wiki

See, the Czechoslovakians asked for intervention including military. Poles just helped their friends, right. I hope you see how silly you come across.
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #292
OK, the argument you use repeatedly is of collective Polish guilt for Stalinist camps, antisemitism, invasion of Ch. It is intellectually dishonest, but trolls don't care about honesty. I can make that same argument in this case:

How unfortunate that you can't give the full quote from wikipedia. Let me provide the bit you missed:

Although on the night of the invasion, the Czechoslovak Presidium declared that Warsaw Pact troops had crossed the border without knowledge of the ČSSR Government, the Soviet Press printed an unsigned request, allegedly by Czechoslovak party and state leaders, for "immediate assistance, including assistance with armed forces."[17] At the 14th KSČ Party Congress (conducted secretly, immediately following the intervention), it was emphasized that no member of the leadership had invited the intervention. At the time, a number of commentators believed the letter was fake or non-existent.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Danube

See, the Czechoslovakians asked for intervention including military. Poles just helped their friends, right.

You mean they helped the repressive Soviet regime by assisting in the surpression of a sovereign state? Yes they did that.

I hope you see how silly you come across.

Yes I do come across as so silly with my threats to call the police and go round to people's houses, don't I?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #293
How unfortunate that you can't give the full quote from wikipedia. Let me provide the bit you missed.

No I didn't miss anything; I geve the full quote. It is you failed to quote the rest:

In the early 1990s, however, the Russian government gave the new Czechoslovak President, Václav Havel, a copy of a letter of invitation addressed to Soviet authorities and signed by KSČ members Biľak, Švestka, Kolder, Indra, and Kapek. It claimed that "right-wing" media were "fomenting a wave of nationalism and chauvinism, and are provoking an anti-communist and anti-Soviet psychosis." It formally asked the Soviets to "lend support and assistance with all means at your disposal" to save the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic "from the imminent danger of counterrevolution."[

So the Czechs did ask for help.

You mean they helped the repressive Soviet regime by assisting in the surpression of a sovereign state?

By sovereign state you mean they had independent elections and they elected a new goverment?
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #294
No I didn't miss anything; I geve the full quote. It is you failed to quote the rest:

Yes you did give the whole quote, apart from the paragraph before the one you quoted. Which might explain why you didn't want to give a link. As would the fact that that particular paragraph states that East German troops did take part in the invasion but you say that they didn't. pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praska_wiosna

How unlike you to pick and choose from what your source says.

Did I quote the whole section? No. I saw not point in repeating the information which was contained in your post.

So the Czechs did ask for help.

Well, if you want to believe the Kremlin, five of them did. Or to be more precise, five members of the Stalinist wing of the communist party (to quote your own source) asked for help. How nice of Poland to assist the Stalinists!

By sovereign state you mean they had independent elections and they elected a new goverment?

Thanks to the efforts of the USSR and Poland, they didn't have a chance to!
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #295
Yes you did give the whole quote, apart from the paragraph before the one you quoted. Which might explain why you didn't want to give a link. As would the fact that that particular paragraph states that East German troops did take part in the invasion but you say that they didn't.

What? I never mentioned East Germany. What you quoted ended short that the request might have been fake. Sneaky.

1jola:
So the Czechs did ask for help.

Harry:
Well, if you want to believe the Kremlin, five of them did. Or to be more precise, five members of the Stalinist wing of the communist party (to quote your own source) asked for help. How nice of Poland to assist the Stalinists!

The communist party was in charge and had legal committments with other communist governments, including communist Poland. All these satellite countries were under domination of the USSR. They were held in submition by terror for decades. They were in slavery. Get this in your head once and for all. They were NOT sovereign, so next time don't blame Poland for Stalinist crimes as you have a habit of doing.

How nice of Poland to assist the Stalinists!

The communist puppet regime assisted another communist puppet regime and in your twisted mind Poland assisted Stalinists in invading a sovereign Czechoslovakia. Any more bullshit?
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #296
What? I never mentioned East Germany.

Good point, it was actually z_darius who said that. My apologies for getting the two of you confused.

What you quoted ended short that the request might have been fake. Sneaky.

As I have already pointed out, what was the point in repeating information which you had already posted?

The communist party was in charge and had legal committments with other communist governments, including communist Poland.

Ah, back to the old Nuremberg defense! It's never worked before but you keep on trying it all the same.

All these satellite countries were under domination of the USSR. They were held in submition by terror for decades. They were in slavery. Get this in your head once and for all.

Which would explain why Romania and Albania were so savagely punished for refusing to take part in the invasion. Oh, hang on a minute, I've got something wrong there haven't I?

They were NOT sovereign, so next time don't blame Poland for Stalinist crimes as you have a habit of doing.

And Nuremberg yet again.

Just out of interest, would you have been happy to see Salomon Morel sucessfully use the Nuremberg defense (if he'd ever had the trial which he should have had), or is it reserved only for Catholic Poles?

The communist puppet regime assisted another communist puppet regime and in your twisted mind Poland assisted Stalinists in invading a sovereign Czechoslovakia.

Oops, I am sorry, I got yet something else wrong. I thought that the it was the 30,000 men and 750 tanks of the 2nd Polish army which invaded. Actually it was the Polish puppet regime. Sorry about that.

One thing though, it is not only in my mind that those people were Stalinists: the source you quote from says exactly the same thing. Might that be why you didn't translate it?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
27 Mar 2009 /  #297
Ah, back to the old Nuremberg defense! It's never worked before but you keep on trying it all the same.

Do have any idea what were the Nuremberg trials? What war crimes are you referring to?

Just out of interest, would you have been happy to see Salomon Morel sucessfully use the Nuremberg defense (if he'd ever had the trial which he should have had), or is it reserved only for Catholic Poles?

Can't help yourself, huh? Got to throw in a Jew into the wood pile.

Morel was accused of war crimes and he later ran a Stalinist NKVD labor camp in Poland which you would call a Polish Concentration Camp, wouldn't you?

No, Morel couldn't use the Nuremberg defense, but he successfully used the "Polish antisemites want Holocaust me" defense. Israel concured.

or is it reserved only for Catholic Poles?

I don't see your point here, but I think it's more of the same, Poland and Poles are bastards, that's why you live here. You should move to Albania or Rumania, which you so admire in their heroic fight against communism.

I thought that the it was the 30,000 men and 750 tanks of the 2nd Polish army which invaded. Actually it was the Polish puppet regime. Sorry about that.

Who are you blaming? The communist government, the soldiers, the tanks, or just Poland in general?

One thing though, it is not only in my mind that those people were Stalinists: the source you quote from says exactly the same thing. Might that be why you didn't translate it?

Get a grip. Communists, Stalinists(in 1968?) what's the difference. Are you drinking again?
Harry  
30 Mar 2009 /  #298
Do have any idea what were the Nuremberg trials? What war crimes are you referring to?

If you knew anything about the Nuremberg trials you would know that the charges there were for more than just war crimes.

Can't help yourself, huh? Got to throw in a Jew into the wood pile.

Just wondering if you will judge Catholics with the same standards as you judge Jews.

Morel was accused of war crimes and he later ran a Stalinist NKVD labor camp in Poland which you would call a Polish Concentration Camp, wouldn't you?

I would call it a Polish concentration camp because it was run by Poles who belonged to a Polish organisation (Ministerstwo Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego). But of course you have to claim that it was a Soviet camp because you always lie whenever Poland and Poles did anything wrong.

No, Morel couldn't use the Nuremberg defense, but he successfully used the "Polish antisemites want Holocaust me" defense. Israel concured.

Actually the defense was three-fold: the statue of limitations had expired; and if it hadn’t, the evidence didn’t support the accusations; and if it the limit hadn’t expired and the evidence was good, Morel was sick. Interesting to note that in the case of one of Morel’s fellow camp commanders, Czesław Gęborski (who you of course claim to have been Jewish and thus, in your bigotted eyes, incapable of being a Pole), the reason his trial was terminated was that he was unwell. So Morel didn't need to use the "Polish antisemites want Holocaust me" defence, he could have just said he was feeling a bit under the weather.

Also interesting to note that you say Morel couldn’t have used the “Only following orders defense”. Why can a Jewish Pole not use it when you so freely use it to excuse Catholic Poles?

I don't see your point here, but I think it's more of the same, Poland and Poles are bastards, that's why you live here.

My point is the you are allowing your anti-semitic views to cloud your thinking. If you allow the Nuremberg defence for one group (i.e. the Catholic Polish soldiers you are so quick to rush to the defence of), then you must allow it for monsters like Morel.

Who are you blaming? The communist government, the soldiers, the tanks, or just Poland in general?

All of them, to varying degrees.

Get a grip. Communists, Stalinists(in 1968?) what's the difference. Are you drinking again?

Clearly we must take some parts of the source you quote as gospel truth (e.g. the bit about some Czechs inviting the Polish arm in) but must ignore other parts of it as foul lies (e.g. the bits describing those particular Czechs as Stalinists). Perhaps next time you could choose your sources with a little more care?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
30 Mar 2009 /  #299
youtube.com/watch?v=JcRAxnsay58
this is sickening. Good on Rep Curt Weldon for taking a stand. Pigs getting off with murder.

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