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What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?


Seanus 15 | 19,674  
29 Nov 2008 /  #91
So did I until I checked it out, LOL

Yeah, a bit calmer these days. I got my cash after some wrangling so that helps. More than a few straggles along the way but hey...

Weren't you home,Dave?
dtaylor 9 | 823  
29 Nov 2008 /  #92
Na, i was supposed to go home for christmas, but i decided to go teach in the mountain region over that period, might aswell make some money over this waste of space festive period....roll on new year :)
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
29 Nov 2008 /  #93
At times it's pretty easy to see why Poles are universally loathed

lol....
dtaylor 9 | 823  
29 Nov 2008 /  #94
Hey filos, i have a 9 inch tounge and i can breathe through my ears....fancy it??
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
29 Nov 2008 /  #95
Well.... to tell you the truth, no.
OP Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
1 Dec 2008 /  #96
Isn't it odd that this topic turned out to be (again) a slanging match against Poland.

Not one person has come up with something that Poland got, except for some old Turkish weapons and good battle practice.

Perhaps that silence is really the answer - nothing.

I'll take a liberty here with Churchill by rephrasing one of his most well known quotes. I think it sums up Poland's historical situation aptly:

"never has so much been done by so many for so little"

Prove me wrong.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #97
"never has so much been done by so many for so little"

Hmm...if all those great deeds are not respected you should maybe start to think if they really were this great or only in your imagination.

Maybe Poland did to much on the battlefield (which is not in high standings anyhow) and not enough in others?
Maybe there just is a huge difference between how you see yourself and your actions and how others percieve them?

If Poland really would be the countless times gallant saviour of europe how people like Polonius percieve Poland there would surely be more recognition...
Harry  
1 Dec 2008 /  #98
"never has so much been done by so many for so little"

I agree entirely with that quote. Britain fought a war for six years, a war that had been declared to defend Polish independence and could have been ended at any time by Britain simply agreeing that Poland should be part of Germany (Hitler's sole condition in the repeated offers of peace which were made to Britain). In exchange the average Pole has done nothing but lie and/or whine about the help Britain offered during the war. Hundreds of thousands dead but Poles just whine about not getting help fast enough, unless they are already busy lying about not being invited to parades and/or the British not supporting the Warsaw Uprising and/or the welcome they gave to the Polish Jews who survived the war and wanted to return to their Polish homes afterwards and/or etc etc.

Never has so much been done by so many for so many for so little.
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #99
Yeah, those selfless Brits just couldn’t wait to run to Poland's help in September '39. But we, ungrateful Poles, never thank them enough.

Brits dont want thanks but failing to acknowledge that the reason Britain declared war on Germany was because of a pact with Poland, and then following this by going on as though Britain owes something to Poland because Poland helped us fight in this very same war seems a bit cheeky.

Could Britain have done more for Poland?

Yes.

Did we do all that could be reasonably expected for a bankrupt country heading for annihilation?

I reckon.
Bzibzioh  
1 Dec 2008 /  #100
Never has so much been done by so many for so many for so little.

Churchill was praising Poles. If there was ever a reward for twisting history facts you would be one serious contender.

Declaring war and than ... dropping leaflets. Yeah, we should be thanking those brave Brits endlessly.
Softsong 5 | 494  
1 Dec 2008 /  #101
I am not an expert on WWII history, but I did learn quite a bit about the history of Poland while doing my genealogy. I was actualy quite surprised and proud to learn of all that Poland did do. Especially, since I realized that it had not been an independent country for many years before WWII, and had a lot of catching up to do.

It would really be hard for any nation to be divided into three parts with different rulers and cultures jammed down your throat. It find it incredible that the country was able to function as a unified country after all that time of partitions.

And I was dismayed because when I was in school nothing much was ever taught about Poland. We learned about the partitions, and that after WWI, Poland was back on the map, and that Hitler invaded it at the start of WWII. That's all I remember, and I liked history. Would have noticed since I am half Polish.

I do feel that Poland was a loyal ally of Britain and the USA and it would have been great to participate in the victory parades, etc. Instead, Poland wound up behind the iron curtain. It's as if WWII only ended in the late 80's, in my opinion.

But, perhaps it is stretching it a bit to say that Poland needs to be thanked by Great Britain for all it did. It does seem to be mutual, even if maybe more could have been done for Poland. I thought that Poland was asked to hold out for a few weeks, and help would arrive. And then the winds changed, and it was thought that maybe if Hitler was appeased with Poland, the rest of Europe would be o.k.

I felt proud to know that Poland did hold out even with postal workers and everyone who could fight doing so. Held out as long as France did. And France had been a modern power for quite a long time, no partitions in its history. I do see Poland as the phoenix that rises from the ashes. And ashes it was. To my knowledge, hardly any country had so much bombed, and absolutely destroyed. My Polish ex-bf's grandmother gave me a coffee table book that shows the before and after pictures of cities in Poland and the rebuilding work. I think because Poland continued to fight so hard, is why this massive destruction took place.

In America, there are a lot of bridges, roads and places with names honoring Poles who helped America fight in her battle for independence from Great Britain. I do believe that Poles have done a lot to stop Muslim invasions, to help America, and to help herself and Britain. It seems Poles have always supported the cause of freedom.

It may not have worked out the best, for Poland, but Poland has survived and is beginning to thrive. I believe more and more people will recognize what the country has gone through, and how hard they have worked to get where they are. And there has been help. The EU, etc. Maybe some mutual gratitude would be the best thing rather than you need to thank me more, or dwelling on the past hurts that cannot be undone.

Maybe they need to be a bit over-the-top about it for the time being.
And as always, these topics are difficult. It would be good if one day there was less you-must-apologize-to-me for this, and thank-me-for-that and finger pointing. Discussions of history in an open, manner that is factual, rather than accusatory. A discussion that acknowledges it is over, and that most of the people who lived then are gone, and there are new people alive now who benefit most from mutual friendships. Education, remembrance of what took place only for the sake of avoiding it in the future, rather than for mud-slinging.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #102
Could Britain have done more for Poland?

Yes.

What exactly could they have done more?

Declaring war and than ... dropping leaflets. Yeah, we should be thanking those brave Brits endlessly

What exactly expected you to do them?

Most historians agree that this alliance was nothing more but a bluff.
If pushes came to shove there was NOTHING serious GB could have done.....
celinski 31 | 1,258  
1 Dec 2008 /  #103
Poles just whine about not getting help fast enough, unless they are already busy lying about not being invited to parades and/or the British not supporting

I see the word "betray" does not come into play? This was not getting help at all. So British watch as Poland is attacked by both Soviets and Nazi's.

Polish did not lie about the parade. A few of Stalin's "communist Polish" may have been invited. Maybe you forget Polish knew they were sold out to Soviets by the allies they fought with.

"Poles just whine" is such an insult to the ones you address. Poland lost her independence, the very thing we also were fighting to keep.
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #104
What could they have done more?

I believe the general gist of the argument is that Britain should have used its extremely precious military resources to fight Germany from Poland rather than from Britain. Of course this would have left Britain's defences weakened and probably have brought an abrupt end to the war in Germany's favour but hey lets not concern ourselves with the details.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #105
Okay...but how would they had gotten their forces to Poland???
The devil IS in the details!


Bzibzioh  
1 Dec 2008 /  #106
Most historians agree that this alliance was nothing more but a bluff. If pushes came to shove there was NOTHING serious GB could have done.....

Whether they could or couldn’t is another matter. But expect us, Poles, to be thankful to Britain for doing ... absolutely nothing for us is ridicules. Britain entered the war to save their own ass, not to defend Polish independence.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #107
Britain entered the war to save their own ass, not to defend Polish independence.

I fully agree!
(Even as I think Britain would have been left alone if they had agreed to an armistice as Hitler still had seemingly a soft spot for them....for the time being at least)

But on the other hand Poles fighted also for Poland, (because they weren't given the choices the French got or the Czechs and most other overrun countries were given) and not for Europe, the Brits or the Amis...so stop these looking for thanks on all sides.
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #108
Okay...but how would they had gotten their forces to Poland???
The devil IS in the details!

We would have walked. Probably after a good lunch of fish and chips. We would have had to liberate France and Germany on the way but we like a challenge so its no biggie.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #109
We would have walked.

And here I've always thought your strengths lies on the sea not on the land, walking not your strongest suit! :)
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #110
Britain entered the war to save their own ass

Can you explain how Britain was threatened by Germany in 1939?
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #111
/wiki/Józef_Piłsudski

It was the best solution

After Adolf Hitler came to power in January 1933, Piłsudski is rumored to have proposed to France a preventive war against Germany. It has been argued that Piłsudski may have been sounding out France regarding possible joint military action against Germany, which had been openly rearming in violation of the Versailles Treaty. Little evidence has, however, been found in French or Polish diplomatic archives that such a proposal for preventive war was ever actually advanced.

Germans were still weak and breaking the rules they have signed.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #112
It was the best solution

Rumours Luki!
But please play this scenario out for us. How could it have been happened in reality...

*waits*

Just a hint: Nazi/Soviet coalition....good bye Poland for the next 300 years!
Harry  
1 Dec 2008 /  #113
Polish did not lie about the parade. A few of Stalin's "communist Polish" may have been invited.

Please don't lie Carol. Both representatives of the official government of Poland and representatives of the unofficial free Poles were invited to the victory parade in London. The representatives of official government didn't bother to turn up, for reasons unknown, and the representatives of the free Polish forces didn't bother to turn up because they wanted to make a protest about the number of free Polish forces invited.

No matter how many times Poles lie about this event, the facts are going to stay the same. So why can't you try telling the truth for a change?

Churchill was praising Poles. If there was ever a reward for twisting history facts you would be one serious contender.

Please stop lying. "Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few." was a comment about all the pilots from all the nations which took part in the battle of Britain.

And before you start spouting on about how 303 Squadron shot down most planes in that battle: 1) 303 claimed a lot more (126 kills) than were claims confirmed (44); 2) they were the fourth best squadron when talking about confirmed kills; 3) remind us of the nationality of the best pilot in 303?

Declaring war and than ... dropping leaflets.

Bombs were dropped before leaflets.
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
1 Dec 2008 /  #114
It was the best solution

No.... the best solution, by far, would have been to assassinate Hitler before he became chancellor. Psycho is dead, problem is solved. Hell, I would have strapped on some explosives and done it myself had I known what was to come...
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #115
No.... the best solution, by far, would have been to assassinate Hitler before he became chancellor.

Why not kill him as a baby in his crib?
Hindsight is a great thing, isn't it?
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #116
Whether they could or couldn’t is another matter. But expect us, Poles, to be thankful to Britain for doing ... absolutely nothing for us is ridicules.

The threads on here go along the lines of 'why didnt Britain do more for us when we did so much for them?'
That doesnt seem as though its Britain thats doing the whinging or making the unreasonable retrospective demands.

And here I've always thought your strengths lies on the sea not on the land, walking not your strongest suit! :)

Sailing was an option. We could have done a reverse-Dunkirk with little old men and schoolboys coming to the rescue of Poland by pedalo.
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #117
But please play this scenario out for us. How could it have been happened in reality...

France and Poland were much stronger than Germans. Hitler violated treaty. It was the best solution for the wrold ... unfortumately Frech believed in their fortifications .... Germans in 1933 were easy to beat.

No.... the best solution, by far, would have been to assassinate Hitler before he became chancellor. Psycho is dead, problem is solved. Hell, I would have strapped on some explosives and done it myself had I known what was to come...

Yeah Hitlers assasitnation would be good as well but you know Germans wanted revange...
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810  
1 Dec 2008 /  #118
France and Poland were much stronger than Germans. Hitler violated teaty. It was the best solution for the wrold ... unfortumately Frech believed in their fortifications .... Germans in 1933 were easy to beat.

On paper Luki!
The French were stronger than the german forces in 1940 too...on paper.
Would the French have been willing to occupy large chunks of Germany for an undisclosed time? Doubtfull!
Would have Poland be willing to occupy large chunks of Germany for an undisclosed time (assumed they had won)? Probably!

German resistance becoming active...large scale fighting....Germany seeking and receiving alliance with Soviet Russia who seeks enlargement (and get's it promised) till to the german border.

France losing interest soon, GB and others unwilling to side with an percieved agressive Poland, sympathy for Germany and the civilian resistance in world opinion is mounting, two front war against Poland between Sovietunion and Nazi-Germany...now who would win!

Don't forget....Germany and Hitler 1933 hadn't the same image as in 1939 as political pariahs (Olympic games 1936) and their forces may be not as strong but they are alone by numbers more than a match for their neighbours!

Very soon Poland would lose any advantages...

You were saying?
celinski 31 | 1,258  
1 Dec 2008 /  #119
Britain was threatened by Germany in 1939?

I find it rather odd that British forgets that Polish depended on them. Just think of what the out come could have been?

[quote]The British and French betrayal of Poland in 1939 was not only dishonest, it was a military stupidity of truly monumental dimensions. Unfortunately, more betrayals would follow. Contrary to their assurances to the Poles Britain and France would agree to allow Russia to keep the parts of Poland seized as part of their deal with Hitler in 1939. They were to be compensated by the ethnic cleansing of all Germans from lands that had been German for over 1000 years creating a humanitarian catastrophe at the end of the war.

worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/reading/history/polandbetrayal.htm
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #120
Would have Poland be willing to occupy large chunks of Germany for an undisclosed time (assumed they had won)? Probably!

Strange assuption ... In my opinion Poland and France would beat you and everything would be ok. There were milions of Poles on German side of border but I doubt that Poland would like to change it.

German resistance becoming active...large scale fighting..

Agressive Poland ... LOL :). I think that this war would be good for europe. Beaten Germans in 1933 would changed their mind.

Hitler was looking for alinac with Poland as well.

Hiler on ceremony after Pilsudski death... we rejected his proposals ... when we look on his ideology I am proud Poland rejected aliance with Hitler.

In my opinion Poland has done mistake. Aliance with Soviet Union was much better. After WWII we had communism but Hitler had murdered milions of Poles... It was much better to let Soviets enter Poland in 1939 we would have everything we had in 1945 when we were sold in Yalta... but there would be no Hitlers occupation.

Finaly invasion (with France) in 1933 was the best solution, on the next place was aliance with Soviets in 1939 ... next place has aliance we had in reality (with UK and France) ...

It is my hierarchy.

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